US Unpreparedness 1945-1950

Other Wars Korean War
#21

Yes, but you’re assuming the US had absolute power in which to deploy such aircraft instantly.

They didn’t! Certainly not in 1950…

Where were they going to fly from? Japan?

Secondly, I think I said that tactical air forces were invaluable to the UN, but several weeks after the war started.

What is “fear of communism”?
Were the N.Koreans and Chinas planning to invide the USA/Australia/Japane?

I don’t know, were Finns, Poles, and Hungarians going to invade Soviet Russia?

Or Americans simply feared to lose the Rich of resources Southern-Eastern Asia?
You see , becouse of mythical fear communism , the USA has been involving into the alien civil war.
After that the violence in region has been increased in times.

Um, like which valuable resources? Were they like the valuable resources in Eastern Europe?

And the famine and backwardness has increased in the North.

BTW, which state would you rather live in again?

Exactly…
This was alien war and for then- becouse in fact , finally the Korean war has been transformed itno the International a War between China , USA and USSR.
But the victims of this war - were a simple Koreans, Nick.
So we have a situation when the Korean civil war , that probably would finish already in 1951 by the victory of N Koreans - continie whole 3 years with using of all sort of modern wearpon, including the napalm and strategic aviation.
Becouse of fear of communism…
You fought for you fear , killing the alien peoples…

I’d be inclined to agree if North Korea wasn’t run by one of the worlds biggest flaming assholes and a complete shit-hole of famine, suffering…

How many South Koreans haven’t starved to death?

But who made the N Korea such poor and hard to leave?
Who created and support the economical blocade all this time?
Is today the Vietnam , where the communists have finally won , one of the most dumanic-developings state of asia , looks like the N Korea?

Um, we really aren’t talking about Vietnam whose leadership was far more dynamic and outward looking…

You see even the communist can build the relatively normal, market oriented economy like in modern China.

Then they’re really just fascists with a mixed economy…

SO why the Koreans should be worsen?
Even the communist Koreans, who inevitably should make the inner regime softer and began the international cooperation.
May be you know the USA today is the MOST importain economical parthner both of Communist China and Communist Vietnam.

Today.

The United States, as well as many Euro nations and even the invadee, the ROK, send fuel oil and foodstuffs to the North to prevent all out starvation!

Sure they were there and helped to inslall th pro-soviet regime(as wll Yanks who were in S.Korean and installed its own pro-american dictarors regime).This was STRONGLY ACCORDING Potsdam declaration 1945
But as you probably know, till the 1949 all the soviets and amerians troops have been withdrew out of Korea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

So the Korean war was a civil from most beginning.

So what if it was “civil?” It was an invasion from the North and the US was obligated to help by treaty…

Just after US military intervention- into the wr have been involved the Chineses and Soviet pilots.

Sure they were in an uneasy, becouse the Alien American troops , after the full scal invasion crushed the almost entire N Korean army till the october 1950.
As yo know USA actively supported the Gomindan during the recent Chinas civil war 1946-49. SO they had a hell of reasons to worry about:)

The war wasn’t “alien” after a time. No more “alien” to US troops than the Pacific or European theaters during WWII…

Actually the CHina controlled much of Communist forces. But it was happend AFTER the USA has been involved itno the conflict.

Actually, bot the Chinese and the Soviets approved Sung’s invasion and offered active assistance…

And the both sides provided and supplies with wearpon of the Koreans in during pre-war period.

No heavy weapons were supplied to the South. Perhaps a few 105mm pieces. But that was it. They used armored cars and old Japanese tanks against the T-34s…

HArdly the 150 of N Koreans tank was a “Huge adventage” Nick:) For the thearthe where almost 500 000 of mans fought.
In the WW2 this “Huge adventage” would be called only couple of battalions…
Besides as you sayed the USA supplies the S Koreans with modern artillery

Rather silly statement, that’s like saying that the German panzers invading the Soviet Union were no advantage since the Red Army had far more armor.

It was a surprise attack that quickly took Seoul and threw the ROK forces in complete disarray…

Soviet crap,:slight_smile:
Mate i never heard about Firebombing of Korea till when i’ve come at our forum:)
And learn it from the related thread “Firebombing of Korea” , you can check it.
BTW i’ve learned here that in many aspects the Korean firebombng was even more cruel than the German one…

Firebombing “even more cruel?”
And I think you started the thread on Korean air attacks…

Koreans…started that all:)
But the USA transformed it into the International War, with the mass aplication of modern wearpon and alien forces.
They just rised the level of cruelty and violence in several times.And made war far longer and bloody.
Becouse of paranoic “fear of communism”…

And have saved millions of South Koreans from starvation and a shit life under the largest pimple on the asshole portion of humanity…

Are you serious with this?

Really? It was some how immoral to save South Korea? Do you actually read anything besides Putin’s cliff notes of the world?

Nowhere.
But you my friend ALSO was not going to worry about the source of you figure “99,9%” in your previous post?
Why i should.

So perhaps you should base your opinions on actual information and not hyperbole?

Really?
You think that the 1.5 mln of Korean civils, killed during the 3 years is rather differe the 2 mln of Vietnamises , killed during the 8 years?
And is the French involvements is differ of “UNN forces” that fought in Korea?
I think on the contrary- there were TOO many common moment in both those wars.
The sides of supportes of Communist- also was CHina/USSR.

So, why is the US solely responsible for the death tolls?

What a 'sovereign nation" do you mean?
The S Korea is just a Korea.

LOL But Finland was just a rebel Soviet province, right flaming hypocrite? :lol:

Chevan, are you drunk, or just a blind fool that ignores all the flaming he’s conducted defending Stalinist aggression and massacres in Finland, Germany, or Poland…

I guess only the fearless generalissimo Stalin had the right to decide when his country went to war or who should die when… :rolleyes:

This is true.
This war also was allien for CHineses and especially for Soviets.
I’ve read a memours of Ivan Kojedub who prepeared the Soviet pilots in Korea.
He wrote that -
“there were absolutly no any other sense in soviet participation in war, except to rise our professionalism in dogfight.
Today they bombs the Phenjian- tomorrow , probably Vladivostok and Moscow.
We need to learn how to intercept the strategic bombers”
So you see
We rise skill level, while local population died.
So this was rather alien war for all of us.
But it was adirect resault of American intervention of 1950.

Well, congratulations to both Soviet and PRC efforts to “liberate” North Korea, only 300,000-500,000 North Koreans died per year of a 90s famine because of their gov’ts wanton brutality, callous indifference, and incompetence. Well done!

…
In the 1990s North Korea faced significant economic disruptions, including a series of natural disasters, economic mismanagement, serious fertilizer shortages, and the collapse of the Eastern Bloc. These resulted in a shortfall of staple grain output of more than 1 million tons from what the country needs to meet internationally-accepted minimum dietary requirements.[47] The North Korean famine known as “Arduous March” resulted in the deaths of between 300,000 and 800,000 North Koreans per year during the three year famine, peaking in 1997, with 2.0 million total being “the highest possible estimate.”[48] The deaths were most likely caused by famine-related illnesses such as pneumonia, tuberculosis, and diarrhea rather than starvation.[48]…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea

#22

Oh, and the “democides”:

# North Korea (1948 et seq.) [make link]

[b]* Communist regime:
      o Rummel estimates that the Communist regime of North Korea committed 1,663,000 democides between 1948 and 1987
            + North Korean victims: 1,293,000
            + South Korean victims: 363,000
      o Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism: 2,000,000
            + In Party purges: 100,000
            + In concentration camps: 1.5M
      o 23 June 2003 US News & WR: 400,000 died in gulags in past 3 decades.
      o The Center for the Advancement of North Korean Human Rights estimates that some 400,000 prisoners have died in labor camps since 1972. [http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/oldnkhuman/eng/nk/nknews12_01.html]
      o Famine, 1995-98
            + 13 March 1999, Agence France Presse: (citing N. Korean defector) 3,500,000 deaths as of 12/98
            + 19 Oct. 2000 Guardian: 3M
            + MSF: 3.5M [http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/publications/other/deadly_2001.shtml]
            + 19 Oct. 2003 NY Times: 2M died in preventable famine.
            + 10 May 1999, AP:
                  # The North Korean govt. estimates 220,000 famine-related deaths, 1995-98
                  # US Congressional delegation: 2M
                  # South Korean intelligence estimates that the population of North Korea fell from 25M to 22M.[/b]

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat2.htm

#23

Why from Japane?
Were the airfields not avialable in S Korea?
And how much time needs to move and deploy the fighters regiment from Japane to Korea?
Several weeks?Hardly.
In the ww2 this period was several days usially.

I don’t know, were Finns, Poles, and Hungarians going to invade Soviet Russia?

You don’t know:)?
So just look at related threads how the they were going to invide the russia in diffeent times of history:)
BTW what to hell this has dto Korea/Asia/Cold war?

Um, like which valuable resources? Were they like the valuable resources in Eastern Europe?

Id didn’t even hear that STalin considered the Korean war from this point.
Did you?

And the famine and backwardness has increased in the North.

BTW, which state would you rather live in again?

I prefer to live in USA to meet you and say everything what i think about :slight_smile:
But no more then for one week.

I’d be inclined to agree if North Korea wasn’t run by one of the worlds biggest flaming assholes and a complete shit-hole of famine, suffering…

Yes they were as much assholes as Chinas commies:)
But you prefered to deels with CHinas , right?Instead to attack them:)
So hardly they are so much assholes if even USA today trades with them

How many South Koreans haven’t starved to death?

Is it a legitime reason to kill additionaly couple of millions of Koreans?

Um, we really aren’t talking about Vietnam whose leadership was far more dynamic and outward looking…

And why they were more outward looking?
May be becouse the USA did not support the hard embargo agains them?And prefere to trade , neitralizing the Chinas/Soviet influence toward the Vietnam?

Then they’re really just fascists with a mixed economy…

Oh the Chanis are already fascists?
What then?

The United States, as well as many Euro nations and even the invadee, the ROK, send fuel oil and foodstuffs to the North to prevent all out starvation!

Ha …
They initially started the full blockade during decades, then send then a few oil and foodstuffs:) as a gift.
Nice method…

So what if it was “civil?” It was an invasion from the North and the US was obligated to help by treaty…

There were no treaty , you know it.
If treaty ever was, the USSR would do the same and the soviet troops have been invvolved officially into the conflict.
But this was the inner Korean war on sense.

The war wasn’t “alien” after a time. No more “alien” to US troops than the Pacific or European theaters during WWII…

The ww2 was an international agression , you know it.The entire world has been involved.
The USA didn’t declared war on Germany neither when Hitler started the ethnical clearisings nor EVEN when the he captured the entire Austria and Chehooslovakia, right?
So where come from such touching wonderful care about Koreans?

Actually, bot the Chinese and the Soviets approved Sung’s invasion and offered active assistance…

Approved , is’t the supported or be involved.
The WIKI articke proves it.
This is historical FACT, that till American intervention - neither China not USSR have nbeen involved into conflict.

No heavy weapons were supplied to the South. Perhaps a few 105mm pieces. But that was it. They used armored cars and old Japanese tanks against the T-34s…

And what did bother you to send them a bit more 105mm peices?Stalin forbid?

Rather silly statement, that’s like saying that the German panzers invading the Soviet Union were no advantage since the Red Army had far more armor.

Silly?
Hardly the GErmans had no advantage , keep in mind the fact that only no more 5% of the Soviet tank was newest T-34 and KV-1/2.
Besides the one importaint advantage was a Germans staff professionalism( best of the world in that time) in management of army that previously captured the entire Europe for dozen months.

It was a surprise attack that quickly took Seoul and threw the ROK forces in complete disarray…

I doubt it was JUST surprise, th N/ Koreans army was STRONGER obviously.

Firebombing “even more cruel?”
And I think you started the thread on Korean air attacks…

Thats’ true:)
But i started to learn about it just in this thread.Finding the western sources.

And have saved millions of South Koreans from starvation and a shit life under the largest pimple on the asshole portion of humanity…

This is a disputable matter who have you saved…
The S. Koreans pro-americans dictators and rotten elite.But the fact is- the millions of OTHERS have not survived the “Saving compain”.

Are you serious with this?
Really? It was some how immoral to save South Korea? Do you actually read anything besides Putin’s cliff notes of the world?

Nick, i never use the best frined of G. Bush - Putin in my sources, yo know it.
And i never watch the Russian pro-putins TV:)

So perhaps you should base your opinions on actual information and not hyperbole?

But you are even not goint to confirm your figures about 99,9% , right?
You use the hyperbole all time.And all is OK?

So, why is the US solely responsible for the death tolls?

I never told the only USA responsible for all victims.
The USSR and CHinas also pretty added in it.
But it was USA who started the interntional long war.
And the Korean civil has become FAR longer and bloody

LOL But Finland was just a rebel Soviet province, right flaming hypocrite? :lol:
Chevan, are you drunk, or just a blind fool that ignores all the flaming he’s conducted defending Stalinist aggression and massacres in Finland, Germany, or Poland…

Nickdfreash are you TOO pissed or drunk yourself, saying that the critic of USA policy is the “defending of Stalinism”?
That’s enough the beer for today. I know you like it periodically.
I was drunk only ONCE ( when i started the thread about " Germans girls in uniform":D:D:D)
The Rising Sun still remind me about it:)
I try not to drink more in forum after that…

I guess only the fearless generalissimo Stalin had the right to decide when his country went to war or who should die when… :rolleyes:

You will laught, but even “fearless generalissimo Stalin” with his crazy friend Mao Zedong, have not decided to join the Korean civil war openly from the begin.

Well, congratulations to both Soviet and PRC efforts to “liberate” North Korea, only 300,000-500,000 North Koreans died per year of a 90s famine because of their gov’ts wanton brutality, callous indifference, and incompetence. Well done!

And continie to die every day…
But hardly the Soviets who aslo till the 1991 helped the Korea with food and fuel, have deel with their troubles.
the cruel economical blokade , embargo and constant political pressure outside plus anti-Koreans hysteria in mass media , put this country into the famine.
The any attempts of both sides to joine the country picefully since the 1990 has been interrupted by the USA.
May be this is time to change the tactic toward N.Korea?
Or we will wait when they die.
You see Nick, when the after the Chinas have suffered with their callous indifference, and incompetence (this actually was in the 1950-60) . they after all have been forced to think how to live further.
And they learn the lessons enough good, today they even pass the USA in economical rise.
The same with Vietnam.
SO hardly the Koreans much more stoopid then their Chinases comrides.
Finally they would have to liberalize thier society soon or further.

#24

IIRC there was one around Seoul, but that was about it. The US effectively had no interest at all in South Korea until the North Koreans actually invaded - it was a backwater they were only running because it had been under Japanese occupation for 50 years or so at this point and so had no competent government they could immediately hand it over to, and was partitioned in a similar manner to Germany and Austria into occupation zones at the end of the war to accept the Japanese surrender.
Prior to the DPRK invasion, the US had no interest in the place and so no reason to build anything more than maybe a couple of airports to support the small garrison.

#25

There was minimal US military presence in the area at the time of the invasion. And the war came as nearly complete surprise. So, how many available aircraft: carrier based, Japan-based, or in theater do you think there were?

It took months, but yes, UN air superiority eventually helped stop the momentum of the North Korean advance.

And my only point is that you are well known on this board for arguing for, rationalizing, and apologizing for Soviet aggression yet put US/NATO acts of war under a hypercritical lens.

It just sort of makes you look like a bit of a raving, nationalist hypocrite…

I prefer to live in USA to meet you and say everything what i think about :slight_smile:
But no more then for one week.

That would be interesting…

Yes they were as much assholes as Chinas commies:)
But you prefered to deels with CHinas , right?Instead to attack them:)
So hardly they are so much assholes if even USA today trades with them

Very different, in both your analogies of communist China and Vietnam to North Korea are deeply flawed for several reasons. Mainly, because Vietnam and China have fought on the battlefield and were never really close other than in a mutually beneficial but temporary alliance against the presence of US troops on the ground in Asia. One that fell apart shortly afterward. And as far as both societies, they practice a pragmatic form of both economic and political engagement with the outside world, and shows that the US will trade and offer mutually beneficial agreements. The case with North Korea is that the gov’t practices a wonderful form of “self-reliance,” meaning they shut themselves off from the rest of the world in order to maintain absolute control, despite overtures from South Korea and many other nations. Only recently have they even considered market reforms.

So again, you’re blaming the US and South Korea for the actions of xenophobic assholes:


Notice that as his country starves, the little bastard has no problem sipping beer in the sauna.

Is it a legitime reason to kill additionaly couple of millions of Koreans?

Who killed a couple million Koreans? The UN or other Koreans?

Be specific!

And why they were more outward looking?
May be becouse the USA did not support the hard embargo agains them?And prefere to trade , neitralizing the Chinas/Soviet influence toward the Vietnam?

The “hard embargo” is the fault of the North Korean gov’t which spurns any engagement with anyone. The “embargo” is largely self-imposed – “self-reliance!”

If they US is such a horrible nation that embargoes everyone they disagree with, they why would they trade with China and the former bitter enemy Vietnam?

Oh the Chanis are already fascists?
What then?

Ha …
They initially started the full blockade during decades, then send then a few oil and foodstuffs:) as a gift.
Nice method…

Because they’ve refused to stop blatant militarism and are for more guilty of rekindling the War with provocative acts and maintain one of the worlds largest armies despite their economic nightmare…

How about blaming the North Korean gov’t for their own policies rather than everyone else?

There were no treaty , you know it.
If treaty ever was, the USSR would do the same and the soviet troops have been invvolved officially into the conflict.
But this was the inner Korean war on sense.

Soviet troops were involved when they insisted on creating North Korea and installing what was an ineffective and unpopular guerrilla movement as its head instead of allowing the people to decide their own fate…

The ww2 was an international agression , you know it.The entire world has been involved.
The USA didn’t declared war on Germany neither when Hitler started the ethnical clearisings nor EVEN when the he captured the entire Austria and Chehooslovakia, right?
So where come from such touching wonderful care about Koreans?

Two entirely different situations. The US didn’t declare war on the Soviet Union when they invaded Poland and Finland either. And the US didn’t attack the Soviet Union when they invaded Czechoslovakia in 1968 either!

And South Korea was an ally near another major ally and protectorate that the US had treaty obligations too…

Approved , is’t the supported or be involved.
The WIKI articke proves it.
This is historical FACT, that till American intervention - neither China not USSR have nbeen involved into conflict.

They were involved when they armed and trained the North Korean army with offensive weaponry…

And the USSR wasn’t involved in Poland nor Finland prior to their aggression there, but I never hear you piss and moan about that.

The US had been in Korea and kept a small garrison of trainers. The US was ALREADY THERE and involved from the beginning!

And what did bother you to send them a bit more 105mm peices?Stalin forbid?

I dunno. Maybe we were more interested in avoiding wars than Stalin was? But supplying the Republic of Korea’s (ROK) forces heavier weapons like the M-4A1E8 Shermans and even M-26 Pershings was briefly considered – but it was decided to build a “constabulary” type army to maintain order, but one incapable of offensive military action.

Silly?
Hardly the GErmans had no advantage , keep in mind the fact that only no more 5% of the Soviet tank was newest T-34 and KV-1/2.
Besides the one importaint advantage was a Germans staff professionalism( best of the world in that time) in management of army that previously captured the entire Europe for dozen months.

I doubt it was JUST surprise, the N/ Koreans army was STRONGER obviously.

So you admit you’re wrong! Thank you! :slight_smile:

And if you read the Wiki article, you’d know it was a complete surprise to everyone not in the DPRK gov’t or military…

Thats’ true:)
But i started to learn about it just in this thread.Finding the western sources.

This is a disputable matter who have you saved…
The S. Koreans pro-americans dictators and rotten elite.But the fact is- the millions of OTHERS have not survived the “Saving compain”.

Jesus Christ Chevan, do us all a favor and read about contemporary North Korea, South Korea, and compare and contrast… :rolleyes:

Nick, i never use the best frined of G. Bush - Putin in my sources, yo know it.
And i never watch the Russian pro-putins TV:)

But you are even not goint to confirm your figures about 99,9% , right?
You use the hyperbole all time.And all is OK?

I don’t throw shit out there that I cannot back up with something. Or at least I admit I’m wrong and move on and stop making silly points…

I never told the only USA responsible for all victims.
The USSR and CHinas also pretty added in it.
But it was USA who started the interntional long war.
And the Korean civil has become FAR longer and bloody

But you just said the US (United Nations actually, because they sanctioned the War and the Soviets didn’t seem to mind at the time) killed two million Koreans above? Which is it?

Nickdfreash are you TOO pissed or drunk yourself, saying that the critic of USA policy is the “defending of Stalinism”?
That’s enough the beer for today. I know you like it periodically.

LOL Are you done pissing and moaning in PMs to me about my one or two drinking references after your dozen or more “beer” comments you’ve peppered this board with?

You will laught, but even “fearless generalissimo Stalin” with his crazy friend Mao Zedong, have not decided to join the Korean civil war openly from the begin.

They began when they insisted on installing Kim il Sung as the leader of a partitioned North!

And continie to die every day…
But hardly the Soviets who aslo till the 1991 helped the Korea with food and fuel, have deel with their troubles.
the cruel economical blokade , embargo and constant political pressure outside plus anti-Koreans hysteria in mass media , put this country into the famine.
The any attempts of both sides to joine the country picefully since the 1990 has been interrupted by the USA.
May be this is time to change the tactic toward N.Korea?
Or we will wait when they die.
You see Nick, when the after the Chinas have suffered with their callous indifference, and incompetence (this actually was in the 1950-60) . they after all have been forced to think how to live further.
And they learn the lessons enough good, today they even pass the USA in economical rise.
The same with Vietnam.
SO hardly the Koreans much more stoopid then their Chinases comrides.
Finally they would have to liberalize thier society soon or further.

LOL So, it’s everybody’s fault but Kim Jong Il’s, is it?

Funny how no other post-communist states have massive internal famines because the horrible United States blockades them…

How’s things at the Ministry of Truth today?

#26

I was drunk only ONCE ( when i started the thread about " Germans girls in uniform":D:D:D)
The Rising Sun still remind me about it:)
I try not to drink more in forum after that…

:lol: Yes, you were what we call “beergoggling” in that one!

#27

Well may be couple of handreds?

It took months, but yes, UN air superiority eventually helped stop the momentum of the North Korean advance.

And my only point is that you are well known on this board for arguing for, rationalizing, and apologizing for Soviet aggression yet put US/NATO acts of war under a hypercritical lens.

Did i rationalizing and apologizing the Soviet agression in this thread?or somewhere?
And we don’t tell about NATO.

It just sort of makes you look like a bit of a raving, nationalist hypocrite…

well if just a bit:)…
But you also look like a rather nationalist who consider any critic as hypercritical, does not you ?

Very different, in both your analogies of communist China and Vietnam to North Korea are deeply flawed for several reasons. Mainly, because Vietnam and China have fought on the battlefield and were never really close other than in a mutually beneficial but temporary alliance against the presence of US troops on the ground in Asia. One that fell apart shortly afterward.

Absolutly true.
Endeed the three those states N Korea, CHina and Nothern Vietnam was very simular in 1950-60.
They had a simular regimes that have fought on the battlefienld and …endeed were never close or friendly.
Infact the Chinases even attacked the Vietnam in the 1979 , atheir relation with N Korea wasn’t so good also.
The ONLY the Soviet-Vietnam relation was more or less reliable and friendly till the most end of USSR.
Also the SOviets a troubles with both Chinas and N Korea were well know.

And as far as both societies, they practice a pragmatic form of both economic and political engagement with the outside world, and shows that the US will trade and offer mutually beneficial agreements. The case with North Korea is that the gov’t practices a wonderful form of “self-reliance,” meaning they shut themselves off from the rest of the world in order to maintain absolute control, despite overtures from South Korea and many other nations. Only recently have they even considered market reforms.

But was a wonderfull “self-reliance” unique in History?
Was the blocade of Cuba or Iraq ONLY due their decision “shut themself out of world”?
Come on Nick…

So again, you’re blaming the US and South Korea for the actions of xenophobic assholes:

i/m not blaming the US for ALL actions.
But as it was said the USA involvement into the war and American Blocade provoked a lot of ADDITIONAL nasty things for Koreans…


Notice that as his country starves, the little bastard has no problem sipping beer in the sauna.

Aha ha ha
what a little bas…dr:)

Who killed a couple million Koreans? The UN or other Koreans?

UN and Other Koreans boths:)

The “hard embargo” is the fault of the North Korean gov’t which spurns any engagement with anyone. The “embargo” is largely self-imposed – “self-reliance!”
If they US is such a horrible nation that embargoes everyone they disagree with

Not such horrible as look at the first view:)
But they pretty like to embargoes everyone who disagree… Iraq ,Cuba, now you try to bann Iran’s trade.

, they why would they trade with China and the former bitter enemy Vietnam?

Becouse you used a diplomatic and political pressure right according situation, instaed of Blokade and Propogandic Hysteria…
Besides the American succesfully played on contrauctions between the former allies- USSR , China and Vietnam.
You see , this methods worked much better then direct American Intervention into those states.
They simply have to liberalize their social communistic structure.
Instead of N Korea where the constant American blockade pushed into starvation and famine.

Because they’ve refused to stop blatant militarism and are for more guilty of rekindling the War with provocative acts and maintain one of the worlds largest armies despite their economic nightmare…

Not correct…
China never stopped blatalian militarism.
In the 1970 accurate they even tryed to attack the USSR, and later in 1979 - Vietnam.
But this fact don’t bother USA , to begin the trade with Chinas communits, right?
Even when the CHineses almost openly planns to invide the American ally - Taiwan.
So as you can see the “inner militarism” is not a reason to starve the state?

How about blaming the North Korean gov’t for their own policies rather than everyone else?

I blame them too…
Those batsards just drunk the beer in sauna and nothing do to improve the situation , except the starting new Missles:)
But something confuse me, why when the China has build its own A-bomb in mid of 1960 - nobody in Western MAss media has not started the Anti-Chinas hysteria?
Why everybody around CAN have as much wearpon as they dream ( Especially the S . Korea,fully armed with new American wearponry ) , but the N Koreans are ONLY agressors in region?
Is it not sort of race prejudices?

Soviet troops were involved when they insisted on creating North Korea and installing what was an ineffective and unpopular guerrilla movement as its head instead of allowing the people to decide their own fate…

Well strongly saying i seriously doubt that hte Puppet S. Korean gov , installed at the same time, was “popular and effective”.
Even the wiki tells
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_Korea#In_the_South

So hardly the former Japane occupants , who certainly know how to starve the Koreans to death, was so POPULAR among the S.Koreans.
Besides the Pocket Dictator Rhee , who most of his life lived in USA, has been moved to the Korea and “elected as president” :)On the Elections where the all left parties was BANNED.
This wasn’t evel looks like democracy:)
The ONLY thing in which he was REAL effective - in perseqution of Left-wings parties and peoples.

Two entirely different situations. The US didn’t declare war on the Soviet Union when they invaded Poland and Finland either. And the US didn’t attack the Soviet Union when they invaded Czechoslovakia in 1968 either!

Abslolutly right.
The USA did not even want to do something when Japs began the slaughtering of China in 1930-yy befor Pirl Harbour.
they just sold the old for Japane ( as wel and for NAzy till the most end of 1941).
The Aerican Isolationists were a perfect democrats- money doesn’t smell for them:)
So you see in many aspect the Amerian policy looks simular to Soviet one:)
They also pretty well traded with Germany and Japane. after 1939.

to be continied…

#28

But you also trained and armed the S Korea.
The N Koreans was stronger in 1950 - there is no doubt, but hardly it was resault just Soviet and Chinas

And the USSR wasn’t involved in Poland nor Finland prior to their aggression there, but I never hear you piss and moan about that.

Yes the USSR wasn’t involved .
But Poland was:)
Stealing the great part of Ukrainian lands in 1920.
And Finland…has been involved.

The US had been in Korea and kept a small garrison of trainers. The US was ALREADY THERE and involved from the beginning!

Thiat’s what a problem.
The Soviets have leaved the Korea in 1948 while the AMericans were still here.
May be becouse the S Korean regime was still too weak to hold the real power?

I dunno. Maybe we were more interested in avoiding wars than Stalin was?

Just like in Vietnam:)?
You simply avoided the Khrushev war, starting the bombing of country?

But supplying the Republic of Korea’s (ROK) forces heavier weapons like the M-4A1E8 Shermans and even M-26 Pershings was briefly considered – but it was decided to build a “constabulary” type army to maintain order, but one incapable of offensive military action.

Oh the M-26 was really great.
It can crush the several t-34 running

So you admit you’re wrong! Thank you! :slight_smile:

And if you read the Wiki article, you’d know it was a complete surprise to everyone not in the DPRK gov’t or military…

You are welcome.
And yes it was rather surprise but not just it.
The N Koreans was really stronger.

Jesus Christ Chevan, do us all a favor and read about contemporary North Korea, South Korea, and compare and contrast… :rolleyes:

Done:)
And Jesus Nick, why communist CHinas more impressive in economical achivenments then the democratic
S Korea?

I don’t throw shit out there that I cannot back up with something. Or at least I admit I’m wrong and move on and stop making silly points…

When have you admitted you are wrong?

But you just said the US (United Nations actually, because they sanctioned the War and the Soviets didn’t seem to mind at the time) killed two million Koreans above? Which is it?

Actually it was the USA who thransformet this war into international.
And they don’t killed all of them- but they increased the violence in times.
To the contrast of Soviets who just very limited participated in the conflict - the UN forces have been pretty involved into the killing of Civils/ they even has been suspected in Military crimes toward civils Korean population.
Chineses also commited a lot of crimes- they have no any mercy to the local population.
Soviets just provided the wearpon and air support.

LOL Are you done pissing and moaning in PMs to me about my one or two drinking references after your dozen or more “beer” comments you’ve peppered this board with?

no more will PM you. if you such as…

They began when they insisted on installing Kim il Sung as the leader of a partitioned North!

You are forgetting - it was according Potsdam agreements. SO USA pretty involved into the installing Kim il Sung.The Americans installed OWN dictator in South and forbidded the lefts.And nobody argued with them.

LOL So, it’s everybody’s fault but Kim Jong Il’s, is it?

Funny how no other post-communist states have massive internal famines because the horrible United States blockades them…

Well i don’t know about other communist states, Well i heared the Cuba was starved due to US embergo) but as i know the Isolation of Iraq since 1991-2003 has brought to nothing except the famine and starvation of local population.

How’s things at the Ministry of Truth today?

I prefer the “Diaries of Doctor Hoebbels” in Egorka thread:)
He actually explained the many things

#29

Mate, I thought you were drunk all the time! :smiley:

I thought slamming vodka and the occasional potato or cabbage into the gut was the whole purpose of Russian existence. :wink:

I’m starting to worry if some of your posts are sober. :wink:

Mine rarely are, unlike Nick’s coldly logical expositions. :smiley:

As for the rest of this topic, I know bugger all about it, but you and Nick have been warned that I am watching. :wink:

#30

You have catched me mate.
Actually it was not just one time :slight_smile:
Beeing associated with Nick , ive learn that many things are getting more explainable if befor posting drink some of wine ( i don’t like a beer).
Initially it has helped - i almost getting the best Nick’s friend.
But soons methods make me to write a foolish things
You remember thas devil thread about “girls in uniform…” What a shame to me
They ALMOST as terrible and ugly as the Nicdfresh notions about life in USSR…:wink:

I thought slamming vodka and the occasional potato or cabbage into the gut was the whole purpose of Russian existence. :wink:

You are very lucky indeed when you have a potaito or cabbage to use with vodka.
Beenig a student usially we have just couple of sigarettes or candies per one bottlle.

I’m starting to worry if some of your posts are sober. :wink:

Mine rarely are, unlike Nick’s coldly logical expositions. :smiley:

That’s true mate.
If even you start to worry about my posts - definitely something wrong with it:)
What do yo advise to me?

As for the rest of this topic, I know bugger all about it, but you and Nick have been warned that I am watching. :wink:

Good new…

#31

A couple of points…

Could you make the argument that Stalin, in giving Sung the green light to invade South, was the start of the road to the ultimate destruction of the Soviet Empire?

From the book, ‘‘Beginnings of the Cold War Arms Race: The Truman Administration and the U.S. Arms Build-Up’’…

Harry S. Truman,in discussing the impact of the Korean War with a journalist in 1953, said that the communist invasion of South Korea was “the greatest error he [Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin] made in his whole career.” Without that invasion, Truman continued, "we’d have done what we did after World War I: completely disarm’’ [from 8 million men and 89 divisions in 1945 to 591,000 men and 10 divisions in 1950.]

Truman’s reaction to the outbreak of war in Korea was not limited to the defense of the government in Seoul. Within the next two years, the US defense budget tripled in size, and America embarked on a massive conventional- and nuclear-arms build up.

It soon became a frantic arms race between the super powers, which was a major reason for the Soviets eventual demise.

A couple of other blunders are worth mentioning.

First, a mistake by the Americans, as pdf pointed out, the Americans considered Korea a backwater, and that an attack by the North unlikely, and on January 12, 1950, at a National Press Club briefing, Secretary of State Acheson spoke of American interests in the Far East and said nothing about defending South Korea from an attack by North Korea, implying that America might not fight over Korea. Acheson said Korea’s defense would be the responsibility of the United Nations, which wouldn’t have gone unnoticed by Sung, who wanted to unify Korea as a communist dictatorship.

Second, a mistake by the Russians, Truman went to the United Nations for sanction. Under U.S. guidance, the UN called for the invasion to halt, then for the UN member states to provide military assistance to the ROK. By charter the Security Council considered and passed the resolutions, which could have been vetoed by a permanent member such as the Soviet Union.

The Soviets, however, were boycotting the Council over the issue of admitting communist China to the UN, so the vote passed.

#32

Good question.
Actually as i know Stalin was afraid of possible ww3. Althoutgh the USSR has developed own A-bomb in 1949 in the 1951 the USSR have just no more dozen of bombs. The USA had about hundred at that time. So the total nuclear distruction of USSR was very possible.
The Stalin hold the Sung utnil the most moment when he got the guaranties- the Korean war will not start the WW3.

From the book, ‘‘Beginnings of the Cold War Arms Race: The Truman Administration and the U.S. Arms Build-Up’’…

Harry S. Truman,in discussing the impact of the Korean War with a journalist in 1953, said that the communist invasion of South Korea was “the greatest error he [Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin] made in his whole career.” Without that invasion, Truman continued, "we’d have done what we did after World War I: completely disarm’’ [from 8 million men and 89 divisions in 1945 to 591,000 men and 10 divisions in 1950.]

Hardly it was a mistake of STalin rather then the owm mistake of Sung, who convinced the STalin that the Southen Koreans strat the anti-american uprising and supported the N Koreans troops.Stalin initially actually believed that the the S Koreans dictatorship as weak as Sung presended for him.So the possible N Korean attack would be endeed soon after the beginning by the total victory of N Koreans in peninsula.
FOR sake of justice- there were actually a disaster of political stability in S Korea til the 1950.
The ignoring of lef-wings parties provoked a mass demonstration and violence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Military_Government_in_Korea#Key_events

The USMGIK tried to contain civil violence by banning strikes on December 8 and outlawing the revolutionary government and the people’s committees on December 12. Things spiralled quickly out of control quickly however, with a massive strike on September 23 1946 by 8,000 railway workers in Busan which quickly spread to other cities in the South. On October 1, police attempts to control rioters in Daegu caused the death of three student demonstrators and injuries to many others, sparking a mass counter-attack killing 38 policemen. Over in Yeongcheon, a police station came under attack by a 10,000-strong crowd on October 3, killing over 40 policemen and the county chief. Other attacks killed about 20 landlords and pro-Japanese officials. The US administration responded by declaring martial law, firing into crowds of demonstrators and killing an unknown number of people

So even the American troops have been involving in fight against demonstrants.
Keep in mind also the fact that the Amerian military administration still hold the certain number of former Japanes occupants and their korean colloborationits working in S Korean gov - and you will finally learn - was the “democratic” S Korean gov so much popular in Korea?
SO there wer no even hint of political stability and democracy here.
So from this point of vew - the Korean lack was a mistake of N Korean gov who has not real vision of situation.
However it was also and failure of Stalin, who finally was agreed with Sung.
Don’t forget the USSR already almost openly fought with USA in CHina during the Civil war of 1946-49 where communists so succesfully breaked the Gomindants ( supported by the USA).
But after losing in CHina - the USA was ready to fought desperately for Korea to the MOST end.
Stalin , obviously, has not guessed obout it- it was his main mistake in 1951.
He obvioulsy didn’t suspect about American strong determination to fight, even till the Direct American intervention.

A couple of other blunders are worth mentioning.

First, a mistake by the Americans, as pdf pointed out, the Americans considered Korea a backwater, and that an attack by the North unlikely, and on January 12, 1950, at a National Press Club briefing, Secretary of State Acheson spoke of American interests in the Far East and said nothing about defending South Korea from an attack by North Korea, implying that America might not fight over Korea. Acheson said Korea’s defense would be the responsibility of the United Nations, which wouldn’t have gone unnoticed by Sung, who wanted to unify Korea as a communist dictatorship.

There was more complex situation IMO for USA.
Americans actually didn’t expect the attack of N Koreans- they though if the attack would be started - it would the attack of joined Soviet-Korean-chinas forces.And after that they will have the full right to use against “International agressor” all possible means including a-bombs( the USA still have the absolute nuclear advantage in the 1951).And job well done…
So they without any doubts will apply the nuclear wearpon- Stalin clearly understood it.
From the military poin - the USA simply did not need to hold the strong military garrisons in Korea - the A-bomb was vey enough “Argument” to hold the Soviets out of Korea ( as they thought)
But the whole surpise of attack was - that this was pure Korean forces who started the war- so americans have simply no legitime reasons to use their A-trump agains USSR and CHina.
Formally it was pure Inner Korean civil war.
Therefor they was forced to start this procedure of “persecution of agressosr in UN” using the formal UN order as justification of their Intervention in alien Civil war.
The situation was such complex that even when after the Chinases entering on war ( october 1951) when the crazy MacArthur demanded to use a “dozen of a-bomb agains insolent CHina”- the Washington refused it, becouse there were no moral reason to attack the CHina when the Americans themself was widely involved in this bloody war.
Beside the nuclear attack of CHinas would inevitably involve the Soviet troops, who still was hold away of conflict- this is already a REAL WW3.

Second, a mistake by the Russians, Truman went to the United Nations for sanction. Under U.S. guidance, the UN called for the invasion to halt, then for the UN member states to provide military assistance to the ROK. By charter the Security Council considered and passed the resolutions, which could have been vetoed by a permanent member such as the Soviet Union.

The Soviets, however, were boycotting the Council over the issue of admitting communist China to the UN, so the vote passed.

Actullay the whole Korean war was a political failure for Soviets.
The N Korean wasn’t able to crush the UN forces and cupture the entire Korean from most beginning .
Besides the USA using the political motivation, joined the Western world around itself. The NATO has been created soon. The fromer agressor Japanese was fully rehabilitated and tied with the USA.
To the contrast the deth of Stalin and soviet final refuse to participate in this dirty war ( 1953) , created the problems among the communist allied forces.
The CHinases and Korens was pissed of on USSR for that.
However from military point - it was rather succes for the USSR.
it was proved the effectivenes of newest soviet wearpon. the Soviet Honchos proved to be very succesfull in interceptions of strategic bomber armades, besides they were more then equal in dogfight with the best American pilots.
The soviet military authoritet has seriously rised after korean war.
Besides the soviet casualties ( few hundreds of specialist and pilots died) were incomparable with Americans ones ( 36 000 only killed)
As well as combat ability of Amerian Army that were rising their effectivenes during the whole conflict.
We we both trained pretty good on this alien civil war, helping in murdering of the local population. :evil:

#33

What guarantees were they?

Stalin seemed in a win win situation at the time, at least as far as the Soviets were concerned.

There was little chance of the Soviets being attacked, as long as the Red Army kept out of it, it was the Soviets surrogates, the Koreans and Chinese who would do the dirty work, so no come back on Stalin, although he was the instigator of the war.

Not sure what you mean ‘‘not real vision of situation.’’

As youve posted it, Sung was pretty much on the ball about the instability in the South, and the communists did quickly over run the South, as Wiki says…Within days, South Korean forces, outnumbered, outgunned, and often of dubious loyalty to the Southern regime, were in full retreat or defecting en masse to the North, it was just a desperate last ditch defence at Pusan, and then MacAurthers brilliant stroke at Inchon that saved the day for the U.N.

And I’d go along with that.

During WW2, Roosevelt became very chummy with the dictator, more or less agreeing to most of what Stalin wanted, expecting [hoping] that eventually Stalin would let the Eastern countries decide their own fate.

But with Roosevelt’s death, Truman took a harder line and listened more to Churchill, who was espousing in the U.S. the '‘iron curtain descending across Europe’'theme.

Not to sure about the use of nukes, from Wiki…

Historian Bruce Cumings said that the U.S. reached its closest point of using nuclear weapons during the war in April 1951. At the end of March, after the Chinese had moved large amounts of new forces near the Korean border, U.S. bomb loading pits at Kadena air base in Okinawa were made operational, and bombs were assembled there “lacking only the essential nuclear cores.” On April 5, the Joint Chiefs of Staff released orders for immediate retaliatory attacks using atomic weapons against Manchurian bases in the event that large numbers of new Chinese troops entered into the fights or bombing attacks originated from those bases. The same day Truman gave his approval for transfer of nine Mark IV nuclear capsules “to the air force’s Ninth Bomb Group, the designated carrier of the weapons” and “the president signed an order to use them against Chinese and Korean targets.” Remarking that the signed order was never sent.

In October 1951, U.S. forces performed Operation Hudson Harbor intending to establish the capability to use nuclear weapons. Several B-29s conducted individual simulated bomb runs from Okinawa to North Korea, delivering “dummy” nuclear bombs or heavy conventional bombs; the operation was coordinated from Yokota Air Base in Japan. The battle exercise was intended to test “actual functioning of all activities which would be involved in an atomic strike, including weapons assembly and testing, leading, ground control of bomb aiming,” and so on. The results indicated that nuclear bombs would be less effective than anticipated, because “timely identification of large masses of enemy troops was extremely rare.”

And would the Soviets become involved, as you said… the total nuclear destruction of USSR was very possible.

Yep, from then on as far as the super powers were concerned, it was an arms race between them, and to use surrogates, or to fight only where their was no danger of head to head confrontation like Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan [1978-88 version]

So I guess you could say that the Soviets did have a direct involvement in the Korean War.

Plus as you say it led to the Soviet military joining the arms race, which was Initially, with post war generation weapon systems [how many T-series tanks were produced in total] neck and neck, but with the advent of modern [and more expensive] Western technology, the Soviets couldn’t go the pace, which eventually leads to the fall of the Soviet Union.

#34

This sounds very fishy indeed to me. The whole reason MacArthur was fired was the advocating of the nuclear bombing of China at a level way above his pay grade (Omar Bradley considered it to be insubordination and was scathing of it in testimony before Congress). The nuclear bombing of China (indeed, any bombing of China) would have got the US in an open war with China, and widened the whole situation out. Truman was specifically trying to keep it to a local “police action” on the Korean Peninsula under a UN cloak, and so to sign nuclear release orders would go against his whole strategy for the war.

#35

They outnumbered the South Korean forces by 2.5:1 to 3:1 in virtually all areas. I’m certainly not saying that Rhee was blameless; but his army was clearly incapable of a sustained invasion of the North as the DPRK army was the recipient of an influx of much arms and equipment from Soviet Russia…

I think this point has been beaten to death.

…

Thiat’s what a problem.
The Soviets have leaved the Korea in 1948 while the AMericans were still here.
May be becouse the S Korean regime was still too weak to hold the real power?

Just like in Vietnam:)?
You simply avoided the Khrushev war, starting the bombing of country?
…Actually it was the USA who thransformet this war into international.
And they don’t killed all of them- but they increased the violence in times.
To the contrast of Soviets who just very limited participated in the conflict - the UN forces have been pretty involved into the killing of Civils/ they even has been suspected in Military crimes toward civils Korean population.
Chineses also commited a lot of crimes- they have no any mercy to the local population.
Soviets just provided the wearpon and air support…

You are forgetting - it was according Potsdam agreements. SO USA pretty involved into the installing Kim il Sung.The Americans installed OWN dictator in South and forbidded the lefts.And nobody argued with them.

Actually, there are very clear differences from “Vietnam,” namely that the Soviets and the North Korean gov’t refused to allow a free and fair election because they both knew that Kim Il-Sung would lose it, probably to Rhee. I think you said you read the (somewhat poorly written but apparently factually correct) Wiki link on the Korean War but have decided to conveniently ignore pertinent information…

This is what sparked the War, the fact that the South was having some sort of elections and the North was unable to overthrow Rhee’s strengthening gov’t that was easily able to overcome any communist guerrilla insurgents:

In Vietnam, the reverse was the case as it was Eisenhower that canceled elections in order to prevent Ho Chi Minh from being elected.

From the Wiki link:

In South Korea, an anti-trusteeship right wing group known as the Representative Democratic Council emerged, this group came to oppose these U.S. sponsored agreements. Because Koreans had suffered under Japanese colonization for 35 years, most Koreans opposed another period of foreign control. This opposition caused the U.S. to abandon the Soviet supported Moscow Accords.[citation needed] The Americans did not want a communist government in South Korea so they called for elections in all of Korea. Since the population of the South was double that of the North, the Soviets knew that Kim Il-sung would lose the election.[citation needed]

The government that emerged was led by anti-communist U.S.-educated strongman Syngman Rhee, a Korean who had been imprisoned by the Japanese as a young man and later fled to the United States.[30] The Soviets, in turn, approved and furthered the rise of a Communist government in the North. Bolstered by his history as an anti-Japanese fighter, his political skills, and his connections with the Soviet Union, Kim Il-sung rose to become leader of this new government and crushed any opposition to his rule by the summer of 1947.[17] In the south, those who supported Communism were driven into hiding in the hills, where they prepared for a guerrilla war against the American supported government.[17]

By 1949, both the Soviets and Americans had withdrawn all but advisors in Korea.[citation needed]
…
In mid 1949, Kim Il-Sung pressed his case with Joseph Stalin that the time had come for a reunification of the Korean Peninsula. Kim needed Soviet support to successfully execute an offensive far across a rugged, mountainous peninsula. Stalin, however refused support, concerned with the relative lack of preparedness of the North Korean armed forces and with possible U.S. involvement.

Over the next year, the North Korean leadership molded its army into a relatively formidable offensive war machine modeled partly on a Soviet mechanized force but strengthened primarily by an influx of Korean veterans who had served with the Chinese People’s Liberation Army since the 1930s.[citation needed] By early 1950 the possibility of reunification through insurgency seemed closed, and Rhee’s regime was gaining in strength if not popularity. Kim was left with the sole option of conventional invasion if he wished to unify Korea as a communist dictatorship before the Southern government became strong enough to defend itself.[33] By 1950, the North Korean military was equipped with modern Soviet weaponry, and it enjoyed substantial advantages over the Southern forces in virtually every category of equipment. On January 30, 1950, Stalin, via telegram, informed Kim Il Sung that he was willing to help Kim in his plan to unify Korea. In the discussions with Kim that followed, Stalin suggested that he wanted lead and said that a yearly minimum of 25,000 tons would help. After another visit by Kim to Moscow in March and April 1950, Stalin approved an attack.[30][35] Coincidentally, on March 9, 1950, North Korea had agreed to send to the Soviet Union 9 tons of gold, 40 tons of silver, and 15,000 tons of monazite concentrate as payment for additional Soviet arms, ammunition and military technical equipment.[36]

So I would again ask: Who were the “colonialists” trying to impose their will on the Korean peoples by force of arms and by denying them a free and fair national election?

#36

From the link in the second post:

Task Force Smith was the first U.S. Army ground maneuver unit to enter combat in Korea. On June 30, 1950, President Harry S. Truman authorized General Douglas MacArthur to commit ground forces under his command to Korea, and MacArthur in turn instructed Lieutenant General Walton H. Walker, commander of the Eighth Army, to order the 24th Division there. Early on July 1, the Eighth Army provided for a makeshift infantry battalion of the 24th Division to be flown to Korea in the six C-54 transport aircraft available. The remainder of the division followed by water. The initial force was to make contact with the enemy and fight a delaying action. This was Task Force Smith, “that arrogant display of strength” that MacArthur hoped would fool the North Koreans into thinking a larger force was at hand. Some officers assumed that even this small force would give the North Koreans pause once they realized whom they were fighting.

Task Force Smith was named for Lieutenant Colonel Charles B. Smith, commanding officer, 1st Battalion, 21st Regiment, 24th Infantry Division. It comprised 406 officers and men: half of the battalion headquarters company, two understrength rifle companies (B and C), a communications section, a recoilless rifle platoon and two mortar platoons. In addition to its rifles, the task force had two 75mm recoilless rifles, two 4.2-inch mortars, six 2.36-inch “bazooka” rocket launchers and four 60mm mortars. Each man was issued 120 rounds of ammunition and two days’ C-rations. Most of the men were 20 years old or less; only one sixth had seen combat.

The men of Task Force Smith left Japan on the morning of July 1. Major General William Dean, 24th Division commander, ordered Smith to block the main road to Pusan as far north as possible.

The men landed at an airfield near Pusan and moved north to Taejon by train, arriving there on the morning of July 2. Smith ordered his men to rest while he and his staff officers drove north to reconnoiter. About three miles north of Osan, Smith found an ideal blocking position, a line of low rolling hills about 300 feet above the level ground. This position also commanded the main railroad line to the east, and afforded a clear view to Suwon, about eight miles north.

On July 4, the task force was joined at Pyongtaek by part of the 52d Field Artillery Battalion: half each of headquarters and service batteries, and all of A Battery with six 105mm howitzers, 73 vehicles, and 108 men under the command of Lieutenant Colonel Miller O. Perry. In the late afternoon of July 4, Smith, Perry and some others made a final reconnaissance of the position that Smith had selected. The combined infantry and artillery moved out of Pyongtaek by truck, arriving at the position about 3:00 a.m. In cold, rainy weather they dug foxholes. The American position extended about a mile on both sides of the Suwon-Osan road. The troops laid telephone lines to four of the howitzers, placed in a concealed position some 2000 meters to the south. One 105mm howitzer was positioned halfway between the battery and the infantry position in order to cover the length of the road and serve as an antitank gun. Volunteers from the artillery made up four .50-caliber machine gun and four 2.36-inch bazooka teams and joined the infantry position to the north. The infantry vehicles were located just to the south of their position; the artillerymen had concealed their trucks just north of Osan. The Americans were vulnerable to enemy flanking attacks, lacked the means to stop enemy tanks and were without reserves.

[b]At dawn on the July 5th, Smith ordered his artillery, mortars and machine guns to conduct registration fire. Steady rain precluded air support. Further, because of earlier, disastrous cases of U.N. aircraft hitting friendly ground forces, all air support that day was confined to north of Suwon. Shortly after 7:00 a.m., movement was detected to the north. Within half an hour, a column of eight North Korean T-34 tanks, part of the 107th Tank Regiment of the 105th Armored Division, approached across the open plain from Suwon. At 8:00 a.m. the artillery received a request for a fire mission and at 8:16 a.m. the first American ground fire of the Korean War was opened against the tanks, about 2,000 yards in front of the infantry position. The high-explosive (HE) rounds had no effect on the tanks, which had their hatches closed. The battery had only six armor-piercing high-explosive antitank HEAT rounds available (one-third of the total on hand when the 52d was loading at Sasebo, Japan), all of which were given to the single howitzer forward. Antitank mines would have stopped the enemy advance, but there were none in Korea. Smith ordered 75mm recoilless rifle fire withheld until the column of tanks reached the 700-yard range. The recoilless rifle crews scored direct hits, again without apparent effect. The tanks stopped and opened fire with their 85mm main guns and 7.62mm machine guns. Second Lieutenant Ollie Connor fired twenty-two 2.36-inch bazooka rounds at the enemy armor, all from close range, including a number at the more vulnerable rear ends of the T-34s, but there was no apparent damage. The 2.36-inch rounds could not penetrate the armor of the T-34. Smith later said he believed that the rounds had deteriorated with age. The 3.5-inch bazooka round would have been effective, but again, there were none in Korea.

As they approached the lone 105mm gun forward, the two lead tanks were hit and damaged, probably by HEAT rounds. One caught fire and two of its crew members came out of the turret with their hands up; a third came out with a burp gun and fired it against an American machine gun position beside the road, killing an assistant gunner, the first American ground fatality of the Korean War. The third tank through the pass, however, knocked out the forward 105mm howitzer with its cannon fire. The other tanks swept on south past the artillery battery, which fired HE rounds against them. One tank was disabled and ultimately abandoned.
[/b]
By 10:15 a.m. the last of 33 North Korean tanks had driven through the American position, killing or wounding some 20 Americans by machine gun and shell fire. Most of the vehicles parked immediately behind the infantry position were destroyed. The wire communications link with Battery A had been chewed up by the tanks as they passed. Fortunately there were no accompanying infantrymen; the tankers were unable to locate the artillery battery firing on them and the T-34s rumbled on toward Osan. A lull of about an hour followed. The steady rain continued and the defenders used the time to improve their position. At about 11:00 a.m., three more tanks were sighted advancing from the north. Behind them was a column of trucks, followed by miles of infantry on foot. These were men of the 16th and 18th regiments of the North Korean 4th Division. The column apparently was not in communication with the tanks that had preceded it.

It took about an hour for the head of the column to reach a point about 1,000 yards from the American position, when Smith ordered fire opened. American mortars and machine guns swept the enemy column causing heavy casualties but did not stop the three tanks. These advanced to within 300 yards and raked the ridge with shell and machine gun fire. Smith had no communication with the artillery battery, which he believed had been destroyed.

Smith held his position as long as he dared, but casualties mounted rapidly. His men were down to less than 20 rounds of ammunition each and the enemy threatened to cut off the position. The enemy tanks were to the rear of the American position, and Smith consolidated his force in a circular perimeter on the highest ground east of the road. The enemy was now using mortar and artillery fire. About 4:30 p.m., Smith ordered a withdrawal, remarking, “This is a decision I’ll probably regret the rest of my days.” The plan was for an orderly leap-frogging withdrawal, with one platoon covering another. Under heavy enemy fire, the poorly-trained American troops abandoned weapons and equipment in sometimes precipitous flight. Not all of them had received word of the withdrawal, and it was at this point that the Americans suffered most of their casualties. When they reached the battery position Smith was surprised to find it intact with only Perry and one other man wounded. The artillerymen disabled the five remaining howitzers by removing their sights and breechblocks. Then all walked to the outskirts of Osan where they recovered most of their trucks that had been hidden earlier. South of Osan the Americans were forced to detour, and some stragglers were picked up. Fortunately there was no enemy pursuit. At Chonan, only 185 men of the task force could be accounted for. Subsequently, C Company commander Captain Richard Dashmer came in with 65 more, bringing the total to 250. More trickled back to American positions during the following week. One survivor even made it from the west coast by sampan, or small, flat-bottomed Chinese boat, to Pusan. In the battle approximately 150 American infantrymen were killed, wounded, or missing. All five officers and ten enlisted men of the forward observer liaison, machine gun and bazooka group were lost. North Korean casualties in the battle before Osan were approximately 42 dead and 85 wounded; four tanks had been destroyed or immobilized. The enemy advance was delayed perhaps seven hours.

con’td

#37

The rest.

The North Koreans continued their offensive south against more and more units of the 24th Division. On July 6, they forced an American withdrawal from the next blocking position at Pyongtaek, held by the 34th Regiment. The 21st Regiment imposed another slight delay on the enemy in front of Chochiwon, but both regiments suffered heavily in these actions. However, these and other battles through July 21 did buy some time for the 1st Cavalry and 25th Infantry divisions to be rushed from Japan.

Task Force Smith’s action is noteworthy almost entirely because it was the first ground clash between invading North Korean and defending U.S. forces, and one of its soldiers became the first ground battle death of the Korean War. It was hardly a major clash of arms and only momentarily delayed the enemy. The diary of a killed North Korean soldier did note, “Near Osan there was a great battle.”

Spencer Tucker

[i]Sources

Appleman, Roy E. South to the Naktong, North to the (1961).

Cannon, M.C. “‘Task Force Smith’: A Study in (Un)Preparedness and (Ir)Responsibility,” Military Review (February 1988).

Collins, J. Lawton. War in Peacetime: The History and Lessons of the Korean War (1969).

Gugeler, Russell A. Combat Actions in Korea (1954).

Ludvigsen, E.C. "The Failed Bluff of Task Force Smith: An ‘Arrogant Display of Strength,’ " Army

(February 1992). [/i]

http://korea50.army.mil/history/factsheets/tfsmith.shtml

#38

Except if perhaps things got out of hand.

Haven’t read Cumings book, a bit of it here…
http://hnn.us/articles/9245.html

Have you read Max Hastings book and his take on the use of nuclear weapons?

Hastings writes…

How close did the U.S. come to, in the Winter of 1950, to employing nuclear bombs against China?
Much closer, the answer must be, than the Allies cared to believe at the time.
Americas leading military men from the joint chiefs down, were not disturbed by the prospect of using them.
Had the Chinese proved able to convert the defeat of the UN forces into their destruction, had 8th army been driven headlong for the coastal ports with massive casualties, it is impossible to say with certainty that Truman would have resisted demand for an Atomic demonstration against China.
The pressure upon the politicians from the military leaders of America might well have become irresistible in the face of strategic disaster.

Thankfully it didn’t get to that situation, but there’s not much doubt that the use of nukes was always a possibility as Truman said at a press conference on 30th Nov. that the U.S. would take whatever steps necessary to meet the military situation, including the use of nuclear weapons.

#39

I’ve read Hasting’s book, and it is recommended by me.

But that was pure speculation. No actual war plans were proven too exist. Of course the US military would have used nukes to stave off certain defeat. But I think it was realized rather quickly that the Chinese PLA “volunteers” had many limitations and would outrun their very limited logistical capability. Also, how effective would atomic weapons have been against an agrarian dispersed army and nation? Then balance that against how effective Soviet ones would have been against the industrialized and densely populated US mainland…

In fact Hastings also relates that the US Marines could well have held the North Korean port city of Hungnam as a fortified thorn in the Chinese/NK side, but decided to abandon the city rather than risk losing the garrison…

#40

Yep, Hastings work is the best I’ve read on Korea.

But that scenario Hastings describes, could easily have become reality, and as you say, ‘‘the US military would have used nukes to stave off certain defeat’’

And for a period, things were pretty grim.

According to Cumings, on the same day as Trueman said that the U.S. would take whatever steps necessary to meet the military situation, including the use of nuclear weapons, Air Force General George Stratemeyer sent an order to General Hoyt Vandenberg that the Strategic Air Command should be put on warning, “to be prepared to dispatch without delay medium bomb groups to the Far East . . . this augmentation should include atomic capabilities.”

How useful would they be?

Haven’t thought of it to be truthful, but I for one wouldn’t like to be on the Communists side if they started going off.:frowning:

Don’t think the Russians would have [or could have] done much, by all accounts they had about 25 bombs to the U.S. at least 450.

But you never know do you?

What chance do you think the Sovs had of hitting U.S. cities with the Tu-4 [B-29]