USS Liberty - thread split out

Other Wars Cold War
#21

After reading the article, I do accept that it is at least possible that the Israel strike on the USS Liberty may have been a tragic blunder. The article is reasonably effective and addressing most of the points that conspiracists have stated, and it is hard to convey any serious motivation that the Israelis would have in attacking the ship of a major benefactor, and tank supplier. But there are some serious questions, such as why did the Mirage pilots not notice what was a very large ensign? There are also some details in the article that appear to be internal contradictions. I believe it’s stated that the Israeli Mirage fighters had no air to ground ordinance left after returning from air strikes on Egyptian troops, only AAMs and their 30mm cannons. But I think the article relates, as did the crewman of the Liberty, the there were air to ground rockets that were fired (I’m presuming they were probably American 2.75"/66mm unguided rockets or something similar) which I think would be the probable weapon for pilots to use, who unaccustomed to attacking ships. I think it’s pretty difficult to hit a vessel with iron-bombs unless one has been specifically trained to do so…

And Chevan, as for “punishment,” most armed services rarely meet out judicial sentences for what are presumed to be acts negligence. And accidents do happen, as was the case of the USS Stark which was struck by an Iraqi Exocet killing 37 in the 1980s. And of course there’s the “Roboship,” the USS Vincennes in which the gungho captain shot down an Iranian airliner, thinking it was an F-14 Tomcat, killing hundreds of innocent civilians. I doubt anyone was arrested or tried in any of those cases, but they were forced to retire in disgrace…

#22

Of course the Israelis are overrated. One needs to only see what happened in Lebanon to see that…

#23

That’s still around 60 killed by Russian military incompetence, as compared to 21 killed by Israeli military incompetence. And you’ve still not answered the question as to whether the Russian who made that mistake has been punished for it.

I’m not - I’m comparing Russian and Israeli military incompetence and the way it is punished. If you want to make any further comparisons, that’s up to you.

Pilots miss things like that all the time. For a good example of this, see the A-10 pilots who attacked the Household Cavalry during the Iraq invasion. They managed to convince themselves that a Scimitar armoured recce vehicle with standard coalition bright orange recognition panels on the roof was in fact a soviet-made lorry with orange rockets on the back. If mistakes like that can be made by US pilots nowadays (who are one hell of a lot better trained than the Israelis of the time, and who are doing a specialised job - remember the Mirage pilots weren’t trained in anti-shipping work), then why assume the Israelis would spot something like a flag? I’m not excusing their lack of competence here, just pointing out that I’m not exactly surprised…

You’re misreading it slightly - there were two seperate air attacks. The first strike (Mirage pilots) identified it as a Hunt class destroyer (! - again, demonstrating a clear lack of a clue what it was beyond being grey and floating) and assumed it was hostile as it didn’t display an Israeli recognition symbol. They strafed it with 30mm cannon only.
The second attack was by Super-Mysteres diverted while airbourne from a strike against Egyptian infantry. That article states they were armed with Napalm, although air to ground rockets would be plausible.

The Israeli army didn’t do all that badly in Lebanon considering they’re a conscript army with all that entails (although it’s worth noting that they took almost as many casualties to take a few miles against a terrorist as the US/UK took to capture the whole of Iraq). The naval contribution to the Israeli campaign however seems to have been something of a fiasco.

#24

And i doubt that captain Will Rogers who shoted down the Iranian A-300 in 1988 were forced to retire in disgrace Nick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human life but never admitted wrongdoing, accepted responsibility, nor apologised for the incident. Officially, it continues to blame Iranian hostile actions for the incident. The men of the Vincennes were all awarded combat-action ribbons. Lustig, the air-warfare co-ordinator, won the navy’s Commendation Medal for “heroic achievement,” noting his “ability to maintain his poise and confidence under fire” that enabled him to “quickly and precisely complete the firing procedure” The Legion of Merit was presented to Rogers and Lustig on 3 July 1988, according to a 23 April 1990 article in The Washington Post. The citations did not mention the Iran Air flight. It should be noted that the Legion of Merit is often awarded to high-ranking officers upon successful completion of especially difficult duty assignments and/or last tours of duty before retirement.

So my friend will Rogers was AWARDED for the A-300;)
BTW i think you right - this was fatal
incident of negligence.
The interesting the other - the reaction of the USA gov and its “version” of incident: this was self-defence.
For the comparition when in the 1sep 1983 the leutennt Osipovich on the Su-15 shot down the Soutern-Korean Boing-747 over the SOVIET territory , he had a REAL PROBLEMS with the carier.Nobody AWARDED HIM or the any soviet stuff who was responsible for this incident

#25

And Who did you say it was incompitence?
The terrorist were ALL the shahids - thay were wanted to explode the whole building- in this case the victims could e MUCH MORE.( probably 500-600).
So they acted right, althought i think thay were need to attack more quikly - throught two-three hours.

I’m not - I’m comparing Russian and Israeli military incompetence and the way it is punished. If you want to make any further comparisons, that’s up to you.

You firstly stop to lead a buls…t about incompetence;)
The Attack of the Liberty was the planned PROVOCATION.
If you doubt and refuse the tesimonies of survival sailors - i could not help you.
True the zionists were incompetent - thay were not ably to sink Liberty finaly:)

Pilots miss things like that all the time. For a good example of this, see the A-10 pilots who attacked the Household Cavalry during the Iraq invasion. They managed to convince themselves that a Scimitar armoured recce vehicle with standard coalition bright orange recognition panels on the roof was in fact a soviet-made lorry with orange rockets on the back. If mistakes like that can be made by US pilots nowadays (who are one hell of a lot better trained than the Israelis of the time, and who are doing a specialised job - remember the Mirage pilots weren’t trained in anti-shipping work), then why assume the Israelis would spot something like a flag? I’m not excusing their lack of competence here, just pointing out that I’m not exactly surprised…

This is wrong example pdf.
This was individual mistake of ONE pilot. The Groups attack of the Liberty where were a BIG american flag for a long time - could not be mistaken whatever you want to say;)

#26

Well, Rogers should have. My mistake results from reading several condemnations of his actions written by military analyst Rick Atkinson I believe, in which he termed harshly criticized the Rambo-like actions of Rogers, and his seeming spoiling for a fight with the Iranian RG naval arm…

#27

That was a pretty horrifying incident.

I think people died for want of the proper antidote in the hospitals, but the Army wanted to keep the gas used secret, until it was too late…

And I think the Belsan school “rescue” was also botched by jittery security forces…

Pilots miss things like that all the time. For a good example of this, see the A-10 pilots who attacked the Household Cavalry during the Iraq invasion. They managed to convince themselves that a Scimitar armoured recce vehicle with standard coalition bright orange recognition panels on the roof was in fact a soviet-made lorry with orange rockets on the back. If mistakes like that can be made by US pilots nowadays (who are one hell of a lot better trained than the Israelis of the time, and who are doing a specialised job - remember the Mirage pilots weren’t trained in anti-shipping work), then why assume the Israelis would spot something like a flag? I’m not excusing their lack of competence here, just pointing out that I’m not exactly surprised…

The Amercian pilots may have been on speed…

You’re misreading it slightly - there were two seperate air attacks. The first strike (Mirage pilots) identified it as a Hunt class destroyer (! - again, demonstrating a clear lack of a clue what it was beyond being grey and floating) and assumed it was hostile as it didn’t display an Israeli recognition symbol. They strafed it with 30mm cannon only.
The second attack was by Super-Mysteres diverted while airbourne from a strike against Egyptian infantry. That article states they were armed with Napalm, although air to ground rockets would be plausible.

No:

After two low sweeps by the lead plane, at 1:58 p.m., the Mirages were cleared to attack. For want of anything more potent, they strafed the ship they saw. (by the way, its pure luck - good or ill - that they didn’t shoot up the Israeli FAC - they just hit the first ship they saw). The first salvos caught the Liberty’s crew in “stand-down” mode; several officers were sunning themselves on the deck, unaware of the Israeli jets bearing down on them. Before they could take shelter, rockets and 30-mm cannon shells stitched the ship from bow to stern, severing the antennas and setting oil drums on fire. Nine men were killed in the initial assault, and several times that number wounded, among them McGonagle.

He mentions rockets after, while failing to list them as part of the planes armament initially…

The Israeli army didn’t do all that badly in Lebanon considering they’re a conscript army with all that entails (although it’s worth noting that they took almost as many casualties to take a few miles against a terrorist as the US/UK took to capture the whole of Iraq). The naval contribution to the Israeli campaign however seems to have been something of a fiasco.

A lot of Israeli Reservists were very bitter, saying that the logistics were very poor. They lacked basics such as water, ammo, and food. They were also sent into a battle that was determined by the enemy…

#28

I don’t think there’s any comparison between hostage incidents and the Liberty.

The Russian hostage incidents presented Russia with situations that had to be resolved. They were both likely to turn out badly, just a question of how many hostages got hurt. There’s no guaranteed way to get into either situation and save all the hostages and kill all the kidnappers, who were dispersed and wired to explode. That’s precisely why the kidnappers picked those situations. Gassing the theatre was probably the best of a lot of bad options. Beslan was a disorganised shambles from the Russian side from start to finish and shows a complete lack of preparedness and training.

Liberty was either a case of repeated misidentifications of an alleged Egyptian horse carrier which bore no resemblance to Liberty, or a series of intentional attacks on a US ship by Israeli sea and air forces.

Generally I go for a stuff up over a conspiracy, but in Liberty’s case I read the evidence as inconsistent with a stuff up and consistent only with determined attacks on what was clearly a US ship. I’m rusty on it now but I read a lot about it a couple of years ago and couldn’t come to any other conclusion.

I don’t accept the “Israelis were incompetent” argument.

They should be judged by their own standards. They presented themselves at the time as very proficient in all services. Proficient airmen and sailors could never make so many mistakes. Even poor ones would be struggling to do it, e.g. being in sight of Liberty crew while machine gunning them on deck and not picking up that they were US sailors.

#29

BTW the school in Beslan was fully mined too.
The most of victims was in sport-room where the bandits exploded the mine that was suspend.
Well i have to add that in Beslan the assault has bagin right after the terrorists-shahids bagn to kill the hostages.
I/ve read the story of one officer who participated in attack.Terrorist indeed did not want to liberate the anybody - they was not so stoopid to think the sombody could admit their sencless political demands.
The terrorist attack was planned as the great political show-slaugtering where the main target was the mass killing of Innocent peoples.But not immediatelly but when the russian special units should began the assault.
The terrorists has learned the lack in Moscow thearte - when the gass prevent them to explode the entire building. However in Beslan they could not to detonate the all of charges.Therefore the 333 was killed ( mostly who was in the sport-room) from 1120 hostage at all.

Cheers.

#30

Good spot - I’ll have a word with him about that later today to clarify.

#31

Thinking about it, a number of the early air-to-air rockets (which the Mirages are stated as being armed with) were unguided so could plausibly (if ineffectively) be used against a surface target. I’ll check with him on this one.

#32

Got a reply back…

Interesting one on the flag. When the Mirages made their pass to try and ID the Liberty they were at about 3,000ft. 7ft x 13ft is about the size of a car, and from 3,000ft you can spot cars and tell what colour they are but that’s about it - IDing make isn’t practical. I’ll try and dig out some old air photos I’ve got kicking about from 3,000ft or so later on tonight if I get the time.

#33

Sorry pdf this is a fulll buls…t.
Here is the the great contraduction with the testimoties of Veteran of Liberty.

  1. The attack was PRECISION - the first aim was the radio-tower, that was damageg hited at the firsts moments of attack.So the Mirages could attacket from the distance 3000ft ( about 1 kilometer) with so precisions.
    Thus the altitude of attack was much LOWER.
    2.The Napalms bombs that as told the veterans WERE dropped also with Great precisions to the desk of Liberty , killing the peoples.They aslo could not drop it from th 1 killometre;)
  2. The Israel torpedo boats open PRECISION MashinGun fire for the Peoples on the desk. The aimed to everybody moved- even for the whom want to help the wounded peoples.
    So the distanse of attack was FAR LESS then 1 kilometer.
  3. The Israels opened precision fire even for the lifeboats with survived sailors- thus the Israel has violated the Genava convention;)
    5.ANd finally the Liberty call for the help on RADIO.
    And Isreal certainly intercepted this radio-calls. ( Coz Liberty used the all avialible frequencis on the international SOS radio-frequency)

All those contraductional facts make ridiculous the version about “Tradic incident”.

Cheers.

#34

Here is the good stuff that explains what the Vetrans of Liberty think about the “Tradical Incident”

http://www.ussliberty.org/thebiglie.htm
The Big Lie
Ahron Jay Cristol, the author of dense and nearly unreadable screed published in 2002 as The Liberty Incident, persists in repeating at every opportunity the false report that the Liberty attack has been repeatedly investigated and found to be a tragic accident. The Liberty Incident, now out of print, was first published as a doctoral thesis and eventually in hard and soft cover by Brassey’s. Cristol’s web site proclaims in its second paragraph:
“After ten official US investigations (including five congressional investigations), there was never any evidence that the attack was made with knowledge that the target was a US ship. There is substantial evidence the attack was a tragic mistake caused by blunders of both the US and Israel. Eight US presidents, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush (41), Clinton, and Bush (43), have each accepted the conclusion that the attack was a tragic case of mistaken identity.”

We have found no evidence that any of those assertions are true. Mr. Cristol has not responded to our repeated requests for proof or documentation of those claims. Moreover, the Liberty Veterans Association has long offered a $10,000 reward to anyone who can show that these statements are true.
See www.ussliberty.org/challenge.htm. No one has ever applied for the reward. There has never been a Congressional investigation. We are unaware that any American president has accepted the position that the attack was a tragic accident. The only American government investigation of any kind was the U.S.Navy Court of Inquiry in 1967. That inquiry examined only the performance of the crew and the adequacy of communications and avoided entirely the question of whether the attack was deliberate, accepting “at face value” the Israeli claim that the attack was an accident. That inquiry has been dismissed by its own legal counsel, legal counsel to the convening authority and numerous other key figures as fraudulent.
Yet Mr. Cristol persists in his false reports. Unfortunately, the big lie has been repeated so often that it is widely repeated even by Members of Congress as if it were established fact. Moreover, we have a letter from the Librarian of Congress verifying that there has never been such an investigation which is reproduced below.

[b]We have repeatedly requested that Mr. Cristol explain, justify, remove or stop repeating his false claim. He declines to do so or to respond – although his failure to keep the book in print is a statement in itself.

Meanwhile, Cristol ignores our specific request for comment.[/b]

So guys as you could see the Zionists even today succesfully coveres the provocation with Liberty.
The their explanation as “tradical incident” is FULLY FALSIFIED.
And as liers ( very professional liers BTW) they SIMPLY ignored the public discussion with the survivals witness - this is no amazing- they have NOTHING to say.
This lie simply insults the survived peoples.

Cheers.

#35

During the Six Day War between Israel and the Arab States, the American intelligence ship USS Liberty was attacked for 75 minutes in international waters by Israeli aircraft and motor torpedo boats.

The damaged Liberty after arriving to the port - the BIG AMERICAN FALG IS CLEARLY VISIBLE from the distance over 500 metres( the most probable distance of attack but mashingun fire)

Cheers.

#36

Without guided weapons and a LOT of training, there is no such thing as a precision attack. If the Mirages hit the radio aerials, it was purely by luck.
Incidentally, I didn’t say that the attack took place from a height of 1km - the aircraft overflew the Liberty at a height of 1km to try and identify it. When they decided it was hostile, they dropped to a lower height to attack but given that they had already decided it was hostile didn’t bother to continue checking that assumption. This is a very common attitude among pilots.

  1. I never said they were dropped from 1km.
  2. Just beause one or more hit the Liberty does not mean they were dropped with great precision - how many missed and landed in the sea?

There is no such thing as precision machine gun fire. All machine guns operate on the beaten zone principle - they are designed to be inaccurate so as to spread the bullets they fire over a wide zone, as this is considered more effective than all the bullets hitting the same target. Furthermore, the Israeli attackers were in small torpedo boats in a very rough sea - they will have been pitching up and down with the waves. I’m not sure how much (if any) shooting you’ve done, but hitting individual people beyond 100m takes a fair bit of skill when lying still on land.
What almost certainly happened is that the Liberty survivors experienced machine gun fire coming in on them while trying to help the injured. This would certainly feel to them like they were being targeted, but in reality the Israelis were lucky to hit the ship.

No lifeboats were ever launched by the Liberty - and any Geneva convention violation would only kick in had they been firing on lifeboats in the water with survivors in board. And as mentioned above, I’d be surprised if the Israelis could even reliably hit a lifeboat.

The Liberty was a specialised electronic-intelligence ship with massively powerful radios and radio intercept gear. It isn’t possible to “intercept” a radio message - the only way to stop it is to blanket out the signal with electronic noise, and this is very obvious to everyone else that you are doing it.
A signal powerful enough to jam out the Liberty would have caused major electronic problems all over the eastern half of the Mediterranean, and there are a hell of a lot of people out there who would have noticed. Including a whole US carrier battle group.
Nobody noticed any such jamming, so it is reasonable to conclude it didn’t exist. The most likely reason that the Liberty was unable to transmit is simply that the radio aerials were damaged in the attack and unable to transmit. After all, didn’t you claim at the top of this post that the first attack was a “precision” attack on the radio mast?

Ummm… you didn’t read that article I linked to, did you? That covered all of these points in detail.

Is it? Doesn’t look very clear to me. The Roman lettering on the bow is clear, but the flag is small and flopping down. Remember also that at the time the torpedo boats attacked the Liberty was on fire from the napalm attack. Thus there will have been a lot of dense, black smoke in the air likely to obscure the flag and generally make identification difficult.

#37

My bold

As a former machine gunner, I disagree.

Most post-WWII MG’s are designed not to put each round into the same place as the last one, a la the Bren.

They are not designed to blow rounds randomly “over a wide zone“.

In the hands of a competent gunner they will still put a lot of rounds into a small area very effectively and hit anyone in it.

If they couldn’t, they’d be useless weapons and not worth the trouble of lugging them and their heavy ammo around.

Furthermore, the Israeli attackers were in small torpedo boats in a very rough sea - they will have been pitching up and down with the waves.
My bold

No, they weren’t. A torpedo boat isn’t small. It was a calm sea. One of the issues that has been debated is whether the Liberty’s flag was visible because of the light wind.

http://hnn.us/articles/195.html

Wind is the primary cause of waves.

I’m not sure how much (if any) shooting you’ve done, but hitting individual people beyond 100m takes a fair bit of skill when lying still on land.

Nobody said they were aiming at individual people. They were firing at crew whenever they appeared on deck.

A naval machine gunner ought to be able to compensate for his gun platform‘s movement, in the same way the helicopter gunners do.

I never had any trouble keeping fire on cars and other range targets at considerably more than 100 yards with vehicle mounted .30 and .50 cal, the latter being what the Israeli navy were using against Liberty.

As for lying down on land with a 7.62mm M60 or L2, ‘cos it’s not something you’d do with a .50, it’s a doddle.

FFS, we could hit sheep out past 500 metres with long tracer bursts.

What almost certainly happened is that the Liberty survivors experienced machine gun fire coming in on them while trying to help the injured. This would certainly feel to them like they were being targeted, but in reality the Israelis were lucky to hit the ship.

Then they were lucky thousands of times.

Do you seriously think that a naval machine gunner can’t hit a ship when his boat is cruising up and down its sides?

Please familiarise yourself with the event before making such silly statements.

In Malta, crewmen were later assigned the task of counting all of the holes in the ship that were the size of a man’s hand or larger. They found a total of 861 such holes, in addition to “thousands” of .50 caliber machine gun holes.

http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.pdf p.6

No lifeboats were ever launched by the Liberty

The people who were actually on the Liberty say they launched lifeboats. What better source do you have to contradict them?

Survivors also report that the torpedo boat crews fired on the inflated life boats launched by the crew after the captain gave the order “prepare to abandon ship.”24 This order had to be rescinded because the crew was unable to stand on the main deck without being fired upon and the life rafts were destroyed as they were launched.
http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.pdf p.7

And as mentioned above, I’d be surprised if the Israelis could even reliably hit a lifeboat.

Are you serious? If so, that is either a ridiculously ill-informed comment or a disingenuous attempt to relieve the Israelis of responsibility by portraying them as woefully incompetent, which has been an unsustainable theme in earlier posts.

The Liberty was a specialised electronic-intelligence ship with massively powerful radios and radio intercept gear. It isn’t possible to “intercept” a radio message - the only way to stop it is to blanket out the signal with electronic noise, and this is very obvious to everyone else that you are doing it.

A signal powerful enough to jam out the Liberty would have caused major electronic problems all over the eastern half of the Mediterranean, and there are a hell of a lot of people out there who would have noticed. Including a whole US carrier battle group.
Nobody noticed any such jamming, so it is reasonable to conclude it didn’t exist.

Why is that a reasonable conclusion?

Frequencies are jammed, not the whole radio spectrum.

What frequencies were shared by the Liberty and other ships?

Where was the rest of the US Fleet?

How much time did the Israelis have to monitor the Liberty’s transmissions to identify the frequencies to be jammed?

Your blanket dismissal requires a lot more detail to stand up.

Check out how many frequencies and nets the Liberty operated on. It’s remarkable that none of them were available.

Doesn’t look very clear to me. The Roman lettering on the bow is clear, but the flag is small and flopping down.

When checked by the Israeli aircraft, the five by eight foot flag had twelve knots across it. It was unfurled and clear.

#38

A bigger issue is that the Israelis had been tracking the ship long before the attack and knew exactly what it was and where it was. This knowledge destroys all Israeli attempts to pretend that the subsequent attacks were an accident.

At approximately 0600 hours (all times local) on the morning of June 8, 1967 an Israeli maritime reconnaissance aircraft observer reported seeing “a US Navy cargo type ship,” just outside the coverage of the Israeli coastal radar defense net, bearing the hull markings “GTR-5”.11 This report, made to Israeli naval HQ, was also forwarded immediately to the Israeli navy intelligence directorate.12

7 Attack on a SIGINT Collector, Exhibit 4-64
“. . . Liberty was decommissioned on 28 June 1968. In 1970 the ship was turned over to the Maritime Administration
and sold for scrap for $101,666.66.”
8 Ram Ron Report, p. 3, Exhibit 8-3
“After identifying the ship on Janes’ (The Fleet’s manual – Exhibit 1) and based on detailed investigation by
the pilot – the identification of the ship was determined to be the US Navy ship “Liberty” (formerly supply
ship) of an 18 knot speed.”
9 IDF History Report, Exhibit 2-14. This document is a map, prepared by the IDF, that shows the territorial limits of
Egypt and Israel, as well as USS Liberty’s track (well outside all claimed territorial seas) on the day of June 8, 1967.
Exhibit 2-14
10 Attack on a SIGINT Collector, quoting the charges filed by the Israeli Chief Military Prosecutor, specifically,
Charges 4 and 5 Exhibit 4-39:
“4. Charge: That the Naval Department’s order not to attack the ship (the Liberty), “for fear of error and out
of uncertainty with regard to the true identity of the ship,” was not delivered to the torpedo boat division.
5. Charge: That it was negligence to give the order to attack a warship without previously establishing, beyond
doubt, its national identity and without taking into account the presence of the American Ship, Liberty,
in the vicinity of the coast of Israel.”
11 IDF History Report, Exhibit 2-678:
“The [Israeli maritime reconnaissance aircraft] patrol’s mission was to detect ship movements before vessels
could enter coastal radar detection range.
4
Throughout the remainder of the day prior to the attack, Israeli reconnaissance aircraft regularly flew out to USS Liberty’s position and orbited the ship before returning to their bases in Israel. A total of no fewer than eight (8) such flights were made.13 At approximately 1050 hours, the naval observer from the early morning reconnaissance flight arrived at Israeli air force HQ and sat down with the air-naval liaison officer there. The two officers consulted Janes’ Fighting Ships and learned that the ship reported earlier in the day was USS Liberty, a United States Navy technical research ship.14

From 0900 hours on June 8, 1967, until the time of the attack five hours later, USS Liberty maintained a speed of approximately five knots and a generally westerlynorthwesterly
course.15
. . .
Meanwhile, the “Nord” plane which had been patrolling the sea had landed and [at 1050 hours local time]
the observer was debriefed by Lt. Commander Pinchasi, a navy representative at Air Command. The observer
reported spotting the marking GTR-5 on the ship’s side. Lt. Commander Pinchasi checked the marking
in a “Janes” manual and learned that the reference was to an intelligence ship named “Liberty.”
12 IDF History Report, Exhibit 2-8:
“He [Pinchasi] reported the information to Naval Operations Section/3 and since the reference was to an intelligence
ship he likewise reported to Naval Operations Section/4 (intelligence).
13 Memorandum from Carl F. Salans, Department of State Legal Advisor to the Undersecretary of State, dated September
21, 1967 and titled: The Liberty – Discrepancies Between Israeli Inquiry and U.S. Navy Inquiry (the “Salans
Report”), Exhibit 9:
:
“II. Aircraft Surveillance
The Israeli report indicates that a ship was reported in the area by
reconnaissance aircraft at 0600 and that another report was received of
a contact between an Israeli aircraft and a surface vessel about 0900.
The Navy Court finding of facts, plus testimony of various members of
the crew indicate reconnaissance overflights of the Liberty at 0515,
0850, 1030, 1056, 1126, 1145, 1220, and 1245.” [all times local]
14 IDF History Report, Exhibit 2-8:
“Lt. Commander Pinchasi checked the marking in a “Janes” manual and learned that the reference was to
an intelligence ship named “Liberty.”
15 IDF History Report, (map), Exhibit 2-14:
5
At 1400 hours, while approximately 17 miles off the Gaza coast, USS Liberty’s crew observed three surface radar contacts closing with their position at high speed. A few moments later, the bridge radar crew observed high speed aircraft passing over the surface returns on the same heading.16

http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.pdf pp 2-4

#39

Another factor that destroys Israeli attempts to present it as an accident is the reaction after the US launched carrier borne fighters with orders to engage the Liberty’s attackers.

By patching together different systems, the ship’s radio operators had ultimately been able to send a brief distress message that was received and acknowledged by United States Sixth Fleet forces present in the Mediterranean.26 Upon receipt of that
23 Statement of survivor James M. Ennes, Jr., Exhibit 12.
“Almost every man on that ship recalls – as I personally recall very clearly from my position outside the
wardroom – that the torpedo boats then circled the ship for a long time firing at close range at anything that
moved. Men trying to aid their wounded shipmates on deck were fired upon. Men fighting fires were fired
upon and recall seeing their fire hoses punctured by machinegun fire. This went on for several minutes. At
one point the boatmen concentrated their fire near the waterline amidships, presumably hoping to blow up
the boilers to hasten our demise. Finally they pulled a distance back from the ship.”
24 Statement of survivor Glenn Oliphant: Exhibit 11.
“Shortly after the torpedo hit, the order was received to abandon ship.”
25 See statement of Lloyd Painter, Exhibit 10 and statement of Glenn Oliphant, Exhibit 11.
Statement of survivor James M. Ennes, Jr., Exhibit 12.
26 Exhibit 13:
081235Z
FM NJRS
TO CINCNAEUR
INFO BGOC
8
message the aircraft carriers USS Saratoga and USS America each launched aircraft to come to the aid of USS Liberty.27 The reported attacking aircraft were declared hostile and the rescue aircraft were authorized to destroy them upon arrival.28 The rules of e ngagement, authorizing destruction of the attackers, were transmitted to the rescue aircraft “in the clear” (i.e., they were not encrypted).
Shortly after the Sixth Fleet transmission of the rules of engagement to its dispatched rescue aircraft, the Israeli torpedo boats suddenly broke off their attack and transmitted messages asking if USS Liberty required assistance.29 At the same time, an
FOLLOWING RECEIVED FROM ROCKSTAR AM UNDER ATTACK MY POSIT 31-23N 33-25E HAVE
BEEN HIT REQUEST IMMED ASSISTANCE
27 Exhibit 14:
081250Z JUN 67
FM COMSIXTHFLT
TO USS SARATOGA
USS AMERICA
INFO CTF SIX ZERO
CTG SIX ZERO PT TWO
BT
C O N F I D E N T I A L

  1. AMERICA LAUNCH FOUR ARMED A4’S TO PROCEED TO 31-23N 33-25E TO
    DEFEND USS LIBERTY WHO IS NOW UNDER ATTACK BY GUN BOATS. PROVIDE
    FIGHTER COVER AND TANKERS. RELIEVE ON STATION. SARATOGA LAUNCH
    FOUR ARMED A-1’S ASAP SAME MISSION.
    GP-4
    BT
    28 Exhibit 15:
    081339Z. USS Liberty Incident.
  2. IAW CINCUSNAVEUR inst P03611#SB forces attacking Liberty are declared hostile.
  3. You are authorized to use force including destruction as necessary to control the situation. Do not use
    more force than required, do not pursue any unit towards land for reprisal purposes. Purpose of counterattack
    is to protect Liberty only.
  4. Brief all pilots contents this msg.
  5. In addition brief pilots that Egyptian territorial limit only 12 miles and Liberty right on edge. Do not fly between
    Liberty and shoreline except as required to carry out provisions para 2 above. Brief fighter cover that
    any attacks on attack aircraft, Liberty or they themselves is hostile act and para two above applies.
    29 Attack on a SIGINT Collector, Exhibit 4-30
    “One of the boats signaled by flashing light, in English, “Do you require assistance?” Not being able to signal
    by light, Commander McGonagle ordered a signalman to hoist the international flag signal for “not under
    command,” meaning that the ship was maneuvering with difficulty and that they should keep clear.”
    9
    Israeli naval officer notified the US Naval Attaché at the American Embassy in Tel Aviv that Israeli forces had mistakenly attacked a United States Navy ship and apologized. The Naval Attaché notified the United States Sixth Fleet30 and the rescue aircraft were recalled before they arrived at the scene of the attack.31

At about the same time as the cessation of the torpedo boat attack, Israeli attack
helicopters arrived over the ship.32 Survivors report that the helicopters were packed with men in combat battle dress. The Captain of USS Liberty gave the order to “prepare to repel boarders”33 but the helicopters departed without attempting to land their troops.34
30 Exhibit 16
Tel Aviv, June 8, 1967, 1414Z.
“0825. ALUSNA called to FLO to receive report. Israeli aircraft and MTB’s erroneously attacked U.S. ship at
081200Z position 3125Z 33-33E. May be navy ship. IDF helicopters in rescue operations. No other info. Israelis
send abject apologies and request info of other US ships near war zone coasts.”
31 Exhibit 17
081440Z JUN 67
FM COMSIXTHFLT
TO AMERICA/SARATOGA /CTF60/CTG60.2
CONFIDENTIAL

  1. RECALL ALL STRIKES REPEAT RECALL ALL STRIKES
    32 Statement of survivor Richard Carlson, Exhibit 18
    “An officer comes in from outside. We can’t go out there. They are shooting at anyone on deck and have
    shot up the life rafts. I hear the whirl of a helicopter. It passes by the porthole. Did I just see armed troops?
    Word is passed. “Prepare to repel boarders!’”
    33 Statement of survivor James Kavanagh, Exhibit 19
    “13. A few minutes later we were told to stand by to repel boarders. We received a few guns and
    waited patiently for the battle.”
    Statement of survivor Richard Carlson, Exhibit 18
    “An officer comes in from outside. We can’t go out there. They are shooting at anyone on deck and have
    shot up the life rafts. I hear the whirl of a helicopter. It passes by the porthole. Did I just see armed troops?
    Word is passed. “Prepare to repel boarders!”
    34 Attack on a SIGINT Collector, Exhibit 4-30
    “At about 1515 hours, two helicopters approached the Liberty and circled around the ship at a distance of
    about 100 yards. The Star of David insignia was clearly visible. One of the helicopters was numbered 04 or
    D4, the other 08 or DB. The helicopters departed, returned, and departed again.”

http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.pdf pp. 7 -9

Remember also that at the time the torpedo boats attacked the Liberty was on fire from the napalm attack. Thus there will have been a lot of dense, black smoke in the air likely to obscure the flag and generally make identification difficult.

Isn’t the whole problem of a supposedly mistaken attack more to do with the attacks initiated by the aircraft?

When was the last time you heard of napalm being used against a ship?

If you want to sink a ship from the air, you don’t use cannon (on your version as you say there were no rockets) and napalm.

However, if you’ve suddenly decided to divert aircraft armed for land attack because, say, you’re worried that the Liberty has picked up signals about you massacring Egyptian prisoners, then you get them to slow the ship down with land armaments until you can get torpedo boats out there to sink it and or helicopter borne troops to capture it, or kill the rest of the crew before sinking it.

If you’re sure it’s an Egyptian ship hostile to you (despite already identifying it as the USS Liberty), even though it’s armed only with four .50 cal MG’s for self defence which your dopey Israeli pilots couldn’t see because they can’s even see a five foot by eight foot flag, why not just launch aircraft equipped with naval armament as well as your torpedo boats?

Why break off the action and apologise for it when you realise that you’re about to be hit by American aircraft launched with orders to destroy you?

Any reasonable reading of what actually happened, and such information as is available from both sides, can’t lead to any conclusion other than that it was a deliberate and sustained attack by the Israelis.

#40

As you’ve got relevant experience on this one I’ll defer to you on it. I’m aware they’re designed to create a beaten zone but I don’t know how big this zone is.
Incidentally, I was wrong to state that it was Machine Gun fire - the boats were apparently armed with 1 x 40mm and 2 x 20mm cannon. These would be rather a lot heavier than a GPMG and I don’t think stabilised mounts had yet worked their way down to such small weapons.

These were - they’re 70 feet long and 60 tonnes, built in France in the early 1950s. Think of them as basically WW2 MTBs. Going by Stuart’s article, the sea state was enough to knock their top speed down from 36 to 24 kts. That would be enough I suspect to inhibit accurate shooting. I would also note that what appears to be a calm sea from a 8,000 tonne freighter may not appear to be so from a 60 tonne speedboat.
Caveat The 24 kts figure is calculated from the Israeli statement that they misidentified the Liberty because they calculated from it’s movement relative to them that it was doing 30 kts. If they are lying about their reasons for attacking the Liberty, it is possible that the seas were calm enough for accurate shooting.

See above - the weapon were actually cannon so a great deal heavier. I’m not sure how this affects things.

Were you moving at the time, or stationary?

The reasons I’m portraying them as woefully incompetent is that I think they make Elmer Fudd look like a tactical genius in many cases, and particularly at sea. Note also that I do not consider that gross negligence relieves them of responsibility, merely of malice.

It comes down to Occam’s razor here. The options are that either the Israelis were jamming every frequency that the Liberty tried yet somehow wasn’t noticed by any other US shipping in the region, or her antennae had suffered battle damage and were inoperable. Given that IIRC there are accounts from the crew of repairing battle damage to the radio systems after the attack, I would tend to suspect the latter as the more plausible.

Quite possible. I would refer you again to the incident on Telic 1 where L/CoH Matty Hull was killed and Tpr Chris Finney got the GC when they were attacked by A-10s. The video is out there and clearly shows allegedly highly trained US ground attack pilots talking themselves into believing that the flourescent orange recognition panels on their Scimitar armoured recce vehicles were in fact “orange rockets”. If current day US pilots can screw up that badly, why should Israeli pilots from the 1960s be any better?