Most of them do, if they could! :lol:
Abraham Lincoln followed up the orator who went on and on for two hours (?)–who remembers what the first speaker said? Mr. Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address will endure as long as English is spoken. Ditto Churchill and Roosevelt’s speeches. The mark of an educated man isn’t how many five-dollar words and muddled phrases he spouts.
And…?
Here’s a quote from one who was illiterate - but not uneducated by the standards of the day - and his wordiness has lasted for nearly three thousand years:
“Dawn rose up in her golden robe from Ocean’s tides, bringing light to immortal gods and mortal men, Thetis sped Hephaestus’ gifts to the ships. …”
The words which I adapted and clearly cause you such consternation were written circa 530B.C.
Methinks thou hast grasped th’rong end of yon stick, Gazzer!
When he appeared successfully for the railroad in Hurd v Rock Island Railroad Company http://www.lib.niu.edu/1998/ihy980236.html , which was a claim by the owner of a Mississippi riverboat which was destroyed by hitting a Rock Island Railroad Company bridge pylon in the Mississippi, Lincoln is said to have summed up all the competing arguments by saying something along the lines (there are various versions of the quote) : There is as much right to go across the river as to go up and down it.
And methinks you like to hear yourself talk.
Difficult to deny.
I’m sure you’re right, but then, the babes like it and call me just to listen to my dulcet tones!
But, hey, I wasn’t intending to offend you and if I have so, I apologise unreservedly.
There was a meaning to my original post in this thread and I think I assumed that everyone would catch on to my meaning. I’ll explain my thinking later have to go service some bird on the phone now. :lol:
All of us want to make ourselves clear. If I don’t understand a word, I have my Webster’s handy, which I usually keep close by when I venture into a latter-day Dean Koontz novel. I can’t look up convoluted sentences, however.
Whether we agree with them or not, as I said, FDR, Churchill, Kennedy, and Reagan were excellent, to-the-point speakers, even if some of them relied on their speech writers.
‘Sententious’ is one of those words that seems to have two conflicting meanings: (1) expressing much in few words . . .; or (2) . . . using proverbs or maxims in a ponderously trite way.
A while ago, I posed the question, to the effect, would Fieldmarshal Rommel been put on trial? I guess I should have been clearer, however. Someone came back (you?), with the statement that since Rommel was already dead, the question was irrelevant. Not an exact quotation, by the way, but you get the gist.
Before this, the subject of ‘What Hitler Could Have Done to Win the War’ was thrashed back and forth. I could have said, Hold it! The Führer lost his war—it’s settled history.
For one, I like to speculate on all the ‘what-if’s’ of history.
I think most of us do.
If you like speaches, then this is one of my favourites:
Most of those who have spoken here before me have commended the lawgiver who added this oration to our other funeral customs. It seemed to them a worthy thing that such an honor should be given at their burial to the dead who have fallen on the field of battle. But I should have preferred that, when men’s deeds have been brave, they should be honored in deed only, and with such an honor as this public funeral, which you are now witnessing. Then the reputation of many would not have been imperiled on the eloquence or want of eloquence of one, and their virtues believed or not as he spoke well or ill. For it is difficult to say neither too little nor too much; and even moderation is apt not to give the impression of truthfulness. The friend of the dead who knows the facts is likely to think that the words of the speaker fall short of his knowledge and of his wishes; another who is not so well informed, when he hears of anything which surpasses his own powers, will be envious and will suspect exaggeration. Mankind are tolerant of the praises of others so long as each hearer thinks that he can do as well or nearly as well himself, but, when the speaker rises above him, jealousy is aroused and he begins to be incredulous. However, since our ancestors have set the seal of their approval upon the practice, I must obey, and to the utmost of my power shall endeavor to satisfy the wishes and beliefs of all who hear me.
I will speak first of our ancestors, for it is right and seemly that now, when we are lamenting the dead, a tribute should be paid to their memory. There has never been a time when they did not inhabit this land, which by their valor they will have handed down from generation to generation, and we have received from them a free state. But if they were worthy of praise, still more were our fathers, who added to their inheritance, and after many a struggle transmitted to us their sons this great empire. And we ourselves assembled here today, who are still most of us in the vigor of life, have carried the work of improvement further, and have richly endowed our city with all things, so that she is sufficient for herself both in peace and war. Of the military exploits by which our various possessions were acquired, or of the energy with which we or our fathers drove back the tide of war, Hellenic or Barbarian, I will not speak; for the tale would be long and is familiar to you. But before I praise the dead, I should like to point out by what principles of action we rose ~ to power, and under what institutions and through what manner of life our empire became great. For I conceive that such thoughts are not unsuited to the occasion, and that this numerous assembly of citizens and strangers may profitably listen to them.Our form of government does not enter into rivalry with the institutions of others. Our government does not copy our neighbors’, but is an example to them. It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few. But while there exists equal justice to all and alike in their private disputes, the claim of excellence is also recognized; and when a citizen is in any way distinguished, he is preferred to the public service, not as a matter of privilege, but as the reward of merit. Neither is poverty an obstacle, but a man may benefit his country whatever the obscurity of his condition. There is no exclusiveness in our public life, and in our private business we are not suspicious of one another, nor angry with our neighbor if he does what he likes; we do not put on sour looks at him which, though harmless, are not pleasant. While we are thus unconstrained in our private business, a spirit of reverence pervades our public acts; we are prevented from doing wrong by respect for the authorities and for the laws, having a particular regard to those which are ordained for the protection of the injured as well as those unwritten laws which bring upon the transgressor of them the reprobation of the general sentiment.
And we have not forgotten to provide for our weary spirits many relaxations from toil; we have regular games and sacrifices throughout the year; our homes are beautiful and elegant; and the delight which we daily feel in all these things helps to banish sorrow. Because of the greatness of our city the fruits of the whole earth flow in upon us; so that we enjoy the goods of other countries as freely as our own.
Then, again, our military training is in many respects superior to that of our adversaries. Our city is thrown open to the world, though and we never expel a foreigner and prevent him from seeing or learning anything of which the secret if revealed to an enemy might profit him. We rely not upon management or trickery, but upon our own hearts and hands. And in the matter of education, whereas they from early youth are always undergoing laborious exercises which are to make them brave, we live at ease, and yet are equally ready to face the perils which they face. And here is the proof: The Lacedaemonians come into Athenian territory not by themselves, but with their whole confederacy following; we go alone into a neighbor’s country; and although our opponents are fighting for their homes and we on a foreign soil, we have seldom any difficulty in overcoming them. Our enemies have never yet felt our united strength, the care of a navy divides our attention, and on land we are obliged to send our own citizens everywhere. But they, if they meet and defeat a part of our army, are as proud as if they had routed us all, and when defeated they pretend to have been vanquished by us all.
If then we prefer to meet danger with a light heart but without laborious training, and with a courage which is gained by habit and not enforced by law, are we not greatly the better for it? Since we do not anticipate the pain, although, when the hour comes, we can be as brave as those who never allow themselves to rest; thus our city is equally admirable in peace and in war. For we are lovers of the beautiful in our tastes and our strength lies, in our opinion, not in deliberation and discussion, but that knowledge which is gained by discussion preparatory to action. For we have a peculiar power of thinking before we act, and of acting, too, whereas other men are courageous from ignorance but hesitate upon reflection. And they are surely to be esteemed the bravest spirits who, having the clearest sense both of the pains and pleasures of life, do not on that account shrink from danger. In doing good, again, we are unlike others; we make our friends by conferring, not by receiving favors. Now he who confers a favor is the firmer friend, because he would rather by kindness keep alive the memory of an obligation; but the recipient is colder in his feelings, because he knows that in requiting another’s generosity he will not be winning gratitude but only paying a debt. We alone do good to our neighbors not upon a calculation of interest, but in the confidence of freedom and in a frank and fearless spirit. To sum up: I say that Athens is the school of Hellas, and that the individual Athenian in his own person seems to have the power of adapting himself to the most varied forms of action with the utmost versatility and grace. This is no passing and idle word, but truth and fact; and the assertion is verified by the position to which these qualities have raised the state. For in the hour of trial Athens alone among her contemporaries is superior to the report of her. No enemy who comes against her is indignant at the reverses which he sustains at the hands of such a city; no subject complains that his masters are unworthy of him. And we shall assuredly not be without witnesses; there are mighty monuments of our power which will make us the wonder of this and of succeeding ages; we shall not need the praises of Homer or of any other panegyrist whose poetry may please for the moment, although his representation of the facts will not bear the light of day. For we have compelled every land and every sea to open a path for our valor, and have everywhere planted eternal memorials of our friendship and of our enmity. Such is the city for whose sake these men nobly fought and died; they could not bear the thought that she might be taken from them; and every one of us who survive should gladly toil on her behalf.
cont…
Cont…
I have dwelt upon the greatness of Athens because I want to show you that we are contending for a higher prize than those who enjoy none of these privileges, and to establish by manifest proof the merit of these men whom I am now commemorating. Their loftiest praise has been already spoken. For in magnifying the city I have magnified them, and men like them whose virtues made her glorious. And of how few Hellenes 1 can it be said as of them, that their deeds when weighed in the balance have been found equal to their fame! I believe that a death such as theirs has been the true measure of a man’s worth; it may be the first revelation of his virtues, but is at any rate their final seal. For even those who come short in other ways may justly plead the valor with which they have fought for their country; they have blotted out the evil with the good, and have benefited the state more by their public services than they have injured her by their private actions. None of these men were enervated by wealth or hesitated to resign the pleasures of life; none of them put off the evil day in the hope, natural to poverty, that a man, though poor, may one day become rich. But, deeming that the punishment of their enemies was sweeter than any of these things, and that they could fall in no nobler cause, they determined at the hazard of their lives to be honorably avenged, and to leave the rest. They resigned to hope their unknown chance of happiness; but in the face of death they resolved to rely upon themselves alone. And when the moment came they were minded to resist and suffer, rather than to fly and save their lives; they ran away from the word of dishonor, but on the battlefield their feet stood fast, and in an instant, at the height of their fortune, they passed away from the scene, not of their fear, but of their glory.Such was the end of these men; they were worthy of Athens, and the living need not desire to have a more heroic spirit, although they may pray for a less fatal issue. The value of such a spirit is not to be expressed in words. Any one can discourse to you for ever about the advantages of a brave defense, which you know already. But instead of listening to him I would have you day by day fix your eyes upon the greatness of Athens, until you become filled with the love of her; and when you are impressed by the spectacle of her glory, reflect that this empire has been acquired by men who knew their duty and had the courage to do it, who in the hour of conflict had the fear of dishonor always present to them, and who, if ever they failed in an enterprise, would not allow their virtues to be lost to their country, but freely gave their lives to her as the fairest offering which they could present at her feast. The sacrifice which they collectively made was individually repaid to them; for they received again each one for himself a praise which grows not old, and the noblest of all tombs, I speak not of that in which their remains are laid, but of that in which their glory survives, and is proclaimed always and on every fitting occasion both in word and deed. For the whole earth is the tomb of famous men; not only are they commemorated by columns and inscriptions in their own country, but in foreign lands there dwells also an unwritten memorial of them, graven not on stone but in the hearts of men. Make them your examples, and, esteeming courage to be freedom and freedom to be happiness, do not weigh too nicely the perils of war. The unfortunate who has no hope of a change for the better has less reason to throw away his life than the prosperous who, if he survive, is always liable to a change for the worse, and to whom any accidental fall makes the most serious difference. To a man of spirit, cowardice and disaster coming together are far more bitter than death striking him unperceived at a time when he is full of courage and animated by the general hope.
Wherefore I do not now pity the parents of the dead who stand here; I would rather comfort them. You know that your dead have passed away amid manifold vicissitudes; and that they may be deemed fortunate who have gained their utmost honor, whether an honorable death like theirs, or an honorable sorrow like yours, and whose share of happiness has been so ordered that the term of their happiness is likewise the term of their life. I know how hard it is to make you feel this, when the good fortune of others will too often remind you of the gladness which once lightened your hearts. And sorrow is felt at the want of those blessings, not which a man never knew, but which were a part of his life before they were taken from him. Some of you are of an age at which they may hope to have other children, and they ought to bear their sorrow better; not only will the children who may hereafter be born make them forget their own lost ones, but the city will be doubly a gainer. She will not be left desolate, and she will be safer. For a man’s counsel cannot have equal weight or worth, when he alone has no children to risk in the general danger. To those of you who have passed their prime, I say: "Congratulate yourselves that you have been happy during the greater part of your days; remember that your life of sorrow will not last long, and be comforted by the glory of those who are gone. For the love of honor alone is ever young, and not riches, as some say, but honor is the delight of men when they are old and useless.
To you who are the sons and brothers of the departed, I see that the struggle to emulate them will be an arduous one. For all men praise the dead, and, however preeminent your virtue may be, I do not say even to approach them, and avoid living their rivals and detractors, but when a man is out of the way, the honor and goodwill which he receives is unalloyed. And, if I am to speak of womanly virtues to those of you who will henceforth be widows, let me sum them up in one short admonition: To a woman not to show more weakness than is natural to her sex is a great glory, and not to be talked about for good or for evil among men.
I have paid the required tribute, in obedience to the law, making use of such fitting words as I had. The tribute of deeds has been paid in part; for the dead have them in deeds, and it remains only that their children should be maintained at the public charge until they are grown up: this is the solid prize with which, as with a garland, Athens crowns her sons living and dead, after a struggle like theirs. For where the rewards of virtue are greatest, there the noblest citizens are enlisted in the service of the state. And now, when you have duly lamented, every one his own dead, you may depart.
What a pity tha no one recorded Themistocles’ speach to the Athenians when persuading them to evacuate their city.
A nice little patronizing speach.
We’re all different and we all have our own way of exprssing ourselves. What I have learned by interacting with members of this site is not to take myself too seriously, and to retain a sense of humour is a bit of a must. Otherwise one might just as well post whatever one has to say and ignore the comments of others.
A while ago, I posed the question, to the effect, would Fieldmarshal Rommel been put on trial? I guess I should have been clearer, however. Someone came back (you?), with the statement that since Rommel was already dead, the question was irrelevant. Not an exact quotation, by the way, but you get the gist.
Was it I? I’ve no idea! I’ve probably been to bed since then. Whether it was or wasn’t me, why did you not make your feelings known at the time instead of storing them up and allowing them to fester?
Before this, the subject of ‘What Hitler Could Have Done to Win the War’ was thrashed back and forth. I could have said, Hold it! The Führer lost his war—it’s settled history.
Don’t recall that thread or any involvement in it.
As Dawn raises herself from her golden couch we see more clearly. Particularly when the effects of the vino have subsided.
My point in posting the above - and it may not be obvious to those that are not resident in the UK and, therefore, were not being subjected to the political spin and the media hype regarding the election and the possibilites, probabilites, pros-and-cans, the evils of a hung parliament and all that it may or may not deliver regarding a coalition, change and reform - is that the above probably made more sense to the average UK citizen than that which was being presented to them by so called poltiicians and the medias political editors through their goggle-boxes etc.
Hope that all has now become clear. :lol:
If I ever attended a luncheon at which you were the guest speaker, I wouldn’t be the only one nodding off. You’re the biggest windbag I’ve ever come across.
Oh well, I guess not every cloud has a siver lining.
You need to get out more.
32Bravo doesn’t even get out of the blocks compared with some after dinner speakers I’ve heard.
Or maybe you get a better class of sleep-inducer at luncheons, which usually I can’t attend as I work during the day. Although a former Test cricketer with cancer of the balls (testicular, not cricket) did put me to sleep a couple of decades ago, which might have put me off luncheons. That, and attending it as a guest of my bank manager.
And not every silver lining has a cloud, but mostly they do.
Probably when they’re occupied by the Gods. One can always tell, because it begins pissing down nectar - or vitriol - depends on which god and which cloud you’re under!
A Guest Speaker’s Oddity!
At a club I attend, a friend of mine had been invited to speak at the annual charity fund raiser. He had been selected for his personality, and sharp wit.
He approached me with some trepidation and explained that he had never given an after dinner speech before and didn’t know what to speak about, could I give him some advice.
“Sex” says I “It’s always well received!”
“Are you sure?”
“Sure!”
After speaking with me he toddled off home where his wife was waiting with his dinner.
“Have you decided on a topic yet, dear?” she enquired.
“Sailing!” he responded.
“Oh, good!”
Saturday comes along and up he gets and delivers the Kama Sutra.
The following day, I call to congratulate him on such a fine speech.
His wife answers the phone as he isn’t home.
“I just wanted to thank him for producing such an entertaining speach!"
“Was it really that good?” she asks
“Yes it certainly was!” I assure her
“You see" she continues "he’s only done it twice. The first time he was sick, and the second time his hat blew off!”
very kind of you to say so. 