I’d just like to point out again that the premise of this competition is a random draw. For those of you newer to here, please read the 1st couple of pages of the topic, thanks.
Pzkpw IV (Germany) v Sherman Firefly (UK)
Pzkpfw IV
Max Speed: 25mph (40km/h) (ROAD) 12.5mph (20km/h) (CROSS COUNTRY)
Range: 125miles (200km)
Vertical Obstacle: 2’ (0.6m)
Trench: 7’6’’ (2.3m)
Length: 19’5’’ (5.91m)
Width: 9’7’’ (2.92m)
Height: 8’6’’ (2.59m)
Weight: 39,683 - 49,163lb (18,000 - 22,300Kg) (Dependant on model)
Ground Pressure: 9.67 - 12.52lb/sq in (0.68 - 0.91Kg/sq cm) (Dependant on model)
Armour: 0.79’’ - 3.54’’ (20 - 90mm)
Armament: 1x 75mm KwK L/24, 1x 7.92mm MG34 coaxial with main gun, 1x MG34 in hull. (KwK L/24 replaced with a 75mm L/43 or L/48 in later models).
Ammunition: 87x 75mm, 3,200x 7.92mm
Service History: In service with the German army from 1936 to 1945. Also used by Italy, Spain and Turkey. Used by Syria until 1967.
Main Gun Failure Range: 100m (L/24 Gr 38.), 1,000m (L/43 PzGr 40), 1,000m+ (L/48 APCBC)
The Panzer IV was the longest serving tank in the German Army and was one of the most produced tanks ever. it began life as a support tank, carrying a short barrelled 75mm gun to provide HE support to the Pz-III which only carried a 37mm gun which could not fire a decent HE shell.
The P-IV started life in a 1935 specification for the re-arming German army. It had a farily long development time though, and deliveries of the new vehicle only began in 1939, by which time the D model was the main service type. This was the model that advanced into Poland and France and took part in the early stages of the invasion of the Soviet Union. It was in the Soviet campaign that the drawbacks of the P-IV were finally exposed. Although it was a good well laid out design the armour was too thin for a support tank so began a steady programme of improvements that would run until the end of the war. The E model introduced thicker armour and a new easier to produce cupola and the F model (intended to be the main production model) was the first to introduce a long barrelled anti tank gun (the 75mm L/43), completely changing the role of the tank from support to anti tank. The F was produced in very large numbers and was used on all fronts before the end of the war. The G came in shortly afterwards with slightly thicker armour and side skirts to set off HEAT warheads before they hit the main armour. From 1943 the more powerful 75mm L/48 was fitted, allowing the P-IV to take on almost any tank in the world. The final model was the J, which appeared in 1944 and was a much simplified design because of the shortage of raw materials in Germany by then.
By 1945, over 8,000 P-IVs had been produced and many others had been built for special purposes such as anti aircraft tanks (with either a single 37mm, triple 30mm or quadruple 20mm Flak guns), various self propelled artillery guns and tank destroyers and bridging tanks.
Sherman Firefly
Max Speed: 25mph (40km/h) (ROAD)
Range: 100 miles (160km)
Vertical Obstacle: 2’ (0.61m)
Trench: 7’6’’ (2.29m)
Length: 20’7’’ (6.27m)
Width: 8’11’’ (2.67m)
Height: 8’10’’ (2.74m)
Weight: 73,250lb (33,225Kg)
Ground Pressure: 13.5lb/sq in (0.96kg/sq cm)
Armour: 0.6’’ - 3.94’’ (15 - 100mm)
Armament: 1x 76.2mm 17 pounder gun, 1x 0.30in Browning MG coaxial with main gun.
Ammunition: 77x 17lb, 6,170x 0.30in
Service History: Used by the British Army during WW2.
Main Gun Failure Range: 2,000m+ (17lb APDS)
The Sherman Firefly was a British conversion of the standard M4 Sherman with the 75mm main gun replaced with the 17pdr anti tank gun. This resulted in some design changes, with the distinctive overhang on the rear of the turret introduced to give the big gun room to recoil and the bow machine gun removed to allow stowage of more of the larger 76.2mm ammunition. Fireflies were introduced to British armoured divisions in 1944, with one Firefly being issued to each troop of normal Shermans. Although the armour of the new tank was identical to the protection of the normal Sherman, the 17pdr was far superior in terms of range then the standard 75mm gun which was designed for infantry support rather than anti tank duties. The 17pdr was capable of penetrating the frontal armour of a Tiger I tank at over 1,000m using only standard ammunition and with the introduction of APCBC (Armour Piercing Composite Ballistic Capped) and APDS (Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot) they were able to take the far heavier Tiger on from 2,000m.
This improved effectiveness led to the German tank crews being ordered to take out the Firefly before the standard M4. In response, British crews often painted the end of the 17pdr sky blue and the bottom of the gun brown in an effort to appear as a standard 75mm armed tank, the effectiveness of this tactic being unknown.
Over 2,000 M4s were converted to Firefly standard before the end of the war.
Sherman Firefly…only for his gun.
Firefly gets my vote on the gun alone - the Mk IV would be penetrated by the 17pdr round well before it could bting its own gun into effective range.
Agreed. And BDL, its about damn time you posted a new one 
The Firefly Sherman: you have to love upgrades…The 17-pounder gave her some much needed punch and it has the advantage over the Panzer MkIV in a match-up of otherwise relatively equal tanks.
Me and the Firefly… he,he,he 
What can I say! The Firefly for me of course. I think that a Sherman V was already the equivalent of a PzIV in many ways and superior in many others. The addition of a trully powerfull gun that could take on almost any Axis armoured vehicle more than tips the scales for me.
Both workhorses of their respective forces the Firefly for me!
Sherman Firefly.
I would rather go with the Pzkpfw IV. I have seen a Firefly in Johannesburg Millitary Museum.
Henk
FIREFLY. In most other respects the tanks are equal, but the gun just hoofs it.
I’ve been trying to figure out a fairly objective way of judging the match ups.
My method is to imagine both tanks out of range of each other on a flat plain (bear with me on this …) then advancing towards each other.
Which one gets knocked out first?
Obviously the gun and armour play a major part. Optics are considered where info is available.
The probable cost of the tanks is considered as well. To take a MAUS vs FIREFLY example, if it takes 5 FIREFLY to knock out a MAUS, but the MAUS is 10 times as expensive, then FIREFLY wins.
Any tank with a major flaw probably didn’t make it through to the comp anyway, so that makes things a bit easier.
On this basis, FIREFLY is the very teddy in this round. Starting out of range and moving forward, the FIREFLY can engage with a good kill probability at 2,000m. Moving at 600 m/min each (closing speed 1,200 m/min), the FIREFLY has about 45 seconds to destroy the Pz IV before the Pz gets into effective range.
I don’t know how many rounds a WW2 tank gets away, but a 105 mm Light Gun crew can get 6 rds per minute down range for the first 3 or 4 minutes before fatigue drops the rate to 3 rds/min.
This suggests the FIREFLY should have fired about 5 rounds whilst the Pz IV hasn’t fired an effective shot yet. Job done …
I know that very few battles are ever fought on a flat plain, and in reality if you can sneak your CROMWELL up behind a KING TIGER, you can knock it out, but I think this competition is about a straight tank vs tank duel.
edited for spelling and because I’d forgotten to take into account the closing speed as opposed to fwd speed of one tank :oops:
Thats a good wat to look at it. You would however have to figure in the superior German optics somehow though.
Very true Firefly.
However, the point I think I’m making above is that the FIREFLY will have got about 5 shots out, each with the real potential to knock out the Pz IV, before the Pz is even in range.
Actually, as neither tanks had main armament stabilisation AFAIK, the reality could be the FIREFLY would just sit still and blat away as the Pz IV tried to get into range where it could achieve an armour-piercing hit.
This means the FIREFLY should get 9-10 shots at the Pz IV (as I said before I edited my post above 
). Even allowing for German optics, that’s a bit of a handicap …
In Fluffyworld, on the flat plain, the FIREFLY could just keep moving out of Pz IV range whilst stopping and continuing to fire. That way, it would be a long time and many shots before the Pz got close enough to get a good hit.
Sitting on the range (artificial conditions I know), we could hit the target 2 times out of 3 using Light Gun at 2,000 m firing HESH, with a fairly basic direct fire sight.
The 17 pdr gun should have a much flatter trajectory and thus give at least as good a hit probability as a field gun. Optics for daylight use aren’t that complex until you start adding computerised FCS, so I think the Light Gun / FIREFLY comparison is fairly valid.
Obviously, crew training takes a part as well, but that 5 or 10 round handicap will be a difficult one to beat.
Ok, yes the Firefly has a 76mm gun but the Pzkpwfw IV has better armour, but I must say that in the deul you explained it must be the Firefly.
I did not take into consideration the range of the gun of the Firefly so I agree with you :oops: .
Henk
I dont think the armour comes into it as the 17 lbder will kill the armour on the PzIV at range. I’d go along with fluffys tank on tank description. But I also believe that the Sherman was a better all round tank then the PzIV.
Well there were many excellant tanks in WW2. It doesn’t matter if they have thicker armour or thinner armour. But if all goes well with the co-ordination of Artillry and the Air Force you could have a very hard tank to destroy. Infact many brilliant tanks were destroyed due to bad handling.
Who wants to continue what BDL had started long time ago?
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