Biggest mistakes.

[Ashes]

@Chevan

Don’t make me laught.
The Tukhachevsky who sended the Red Amry to die to the Poland in the 1920 to “support the European proletary revolution”. Due to his stoopid orders about 150 000 of Red Army soldier have been cuptured many of them perished in polish concentration camps.
This IDIOT should be already executed in the 1921 but he suvived and made a lot of harm for army.
Don’t please think that my “countryman” Tukhachevsky would have put his lives on the line for the Soviet in the past. He actually would , as about 50 000 of HIS soldier killed and perished during the 1920-21.
But this ba…rd did not even wish to die for anything.

I guess your not a fan of Tukhachevsky then.

He certainly got well and truly cleaned up by the Poles in '‘the Miracle of the Vistula’'didn’t he?

And they didn’t muck around much did they?

10th June: Tukhachevsky’s arrest announced.
11th June: Investigation over, Tukhachevsky is executed.
Posthumously rehabilitated under Khrushchev.

Others have a different slant on Tukhachevsky…

“Marshal Tukhachevsky: Enigmatic Military Entrepreneur,” focuses on the man at the center of Soviet military innovation during the late 1920s and early 1930s, convincingly arguing that Mikhail Tukhachevsky was “the chief catalyst” for the culture of reformism in the Red Army, leading the movement for change within his institution as a "public entrepreneur. Comparing Tukhachevsky to Admiral Hyman Rickover, the father of the modern U.S. nuclear navy, Stoecker makes the case that Tukhachevsky, more than Voroshilov, Stalin, or the general institution of the Soviet military, promoted and encouraged reformism, contributing his own command of detail, brilliant strategic thinking, and mastery of political infighting to gain resources and approval for his improvements. Despite an aristocratic background and service in the Tsarist army, his ideas of the decisive offensive and deep battle became essential elements of Soviet battle doctrine, even after Tukhachevsky himself was purged and executed in 1937.

http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=28484918855761

@Nickdfresh

They allowed the NKVD to have a good deal of input on strategy early on. The NKVD also controlled its own paramilitaries in an adjacent chain of command to the Red Army’s --causing much duplicity and hindering the Red Army’s ability to cull the idiot sycophanting incompetents in favor of the truly effective commanders like Zhukov, who along with other Soviet Army commanders (Chuikov, Rossovsky ), were able to wrestle complete control from them. The NKVD’s battalions also hindered consolidation and coordination at the fronts up until the battle of Stalingrad…

Also Commissars…

Erickson says that the damage done by commissars, especially men like the vicious ignoramus Lev Mekhlis made life hell on Earth for the Officer Corps, further deabilitating the Red Army in the first years of the war.

Mekhlis Finlay stuffed up big time at Kerch, loosing 21 divisions,and was eventually demoted by Stalin, doubt if many in the Red Army was sorry to see the S.O.B. go.

IIRC he played a role in the murder of the Polish officers.

From Erickson on the purges in’‘The Soviet High Command: A Military-Political History, 1918-1941’’

‘‘If the justification for the purge of the high command was advanced as the elimination of the incompetent, this was patently false. It was precisely the best brains of the Red Army which had been removed from the top. Offers trained in their ideas had also been removed. All this had been affected for the sake of a possibility, that of raising a new senior command, politically reliable and one inclined to adapt itself to Stalins requirements even subservient,…because of it Soviet solders died patriotically, but they also died unnecessarily…’’

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=rgkSxFpKmIsC&pg=PA507&lpg=PA507&dq=purge+of+soviet+officers+1930’s&source=web&ots=kaKDNrMw1M&sig=3TC8LPAHS1_OyErpu-LPqF1YkW4&hl=en#PPA506,M1

[Cojimar_1945]

Krivosheev seems to indicate that the Soviets suffered 705,671 combat deaths along with 68,637 MIA/POWs in 1945 but this figure still seems ludicrous. This is more than twice the combat deaths suffered by Britain in the entire war.

[Chevan]

@Ashes

I guess your not a fan of Tukhachevsky then.

oh how have you guessed:)

He certainly got well and truly cleaned up by the Poles in '‘the Miracle of the Vistula’'didn’t he?

And they didn’t muck around much did they?

hard to understand what do you mean here

10th June: Tukhachevsky’s arrest announced.
11th June: Investigation over, Tukhachevsky is executed.
Posthumously rehabilitated under Khrushchev.

He indeed was arrested 22 may of 1937 and 11 jule executed.
BTW do yu know why the Khrushev later rehabilitated most of thos idiots and criminals?
Becouse he themself took active part in crimes in Ukraine.
So hardly the Khrushev could advocate them.

Others have a different slant on Tukhachevsky…

Others have the different views on Hitler , consider him as greates man of the history:)
But we are not take them a serious right:)

“Marshal Tukhachevsky: Enigmatic Military Entrepreneur,” focuses on the man at the center of Soviet military innovation during the late 1920s and early 1930s, convincingly arguing that Mikhail Tukhachevsky was “the chief catalyst” for the culture of reformism in the Red Army, leading the movement for change within his institution as a "public entrepreneur. Comparing Tukhachevsky to Admiral Hyman Rickover, the father of the modern U.S. nuclear navy, Stoecker makes the case that Tukhachevsky, more than Voroshilov, Stalin, or the general institution of the Soviet military, promoted and encouraged reformism, contributing his own command of detail, brilliant strategic thinking, and mastery of political infighting to gain resources and approval for his improvements. Despite an aristocratic background and service in the Tsarist army, his ideas of the decisive offensive and deep battle became essential elements of Soviet battle doctrine, even after Tukhachevsky himself was purged and executed in 1937.

Oh so great “reformator” Tuhachevski:)the chief catalyst of the army …he he he
OK let see how to some of his deeds…
the russian Wiki post a very interesting document how the Tuhachevsky suppressed ani-bolshevists uprising in Russia in 1921 ( the year of first famine in Volga region)
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Тухачевский#.D0.9F.D0.BE.D0.B4.D0.B0.D0.B2.D0.BB.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.B8.D0.B5_.D0.B0.D0.BD.D1.82.D0.B8.D0.B1.D0.BE.D0.BB.D1.8C.D1.88.D0.B5.D0.B2.D0.B8.D1.81.D1.82.D1.81.D0.BA.D0.B8.D1.85_.D0.B2.D0.BE.D1.81.D1.81.D1.82.D0.B0.D0.BD.D0.B8.D0.B9

ПРИКАЗЫВАЮ:

1. Леса, где прячутся бандиты, очистить ядовитыми газами, точно рассчитать, чтобы облако удушливых газов распространилось по всему лесу, уничтожая все, что в нем пряталось.
2. Инспектору артиллерии немедленно подать на места потребное количество баллонов с ядовитыми газами и нужных специалистов.
3. Начальнику боевых участков настойчиво и энергично выполнить настоящий приказ.
4. О принятых мерах донести.

Командующий войсками Тухачевский,
Начальник штаба войск Генштаба Какурин.
…
Army Order

1. the forests areas where the insugremens are hiddened , should be cleaned up with Poisonous Gases.
2. The inspector of artillery , immediatelly provide the supplies of enourmous quantlity the shell with Gas.
3. The commander of “anti-partisan” operation should execute it persistently.
4. the report about execution should be presented.
   sign.
   Commander Tuhachevski

I think don’t need to notice you - in any western country the man who had sanctioned the using the Poison gas agains OWN population , should be judged and at least imprisoned.
BTW how do you think, what is the reason of so touching Love of western Autor of “Marshal Tukhachevsky: Enigmatic Military Entrepreneur to the one of the Bolshevick war Criminal Tuhachevsky?
Does it not look oddly?
Being the Chief of Armament of Red Army since 1931 he ordered a crazy figures of obsolet tanks like BT-3 WITHOUT Radio at all:)
And don’t please make me to remind how many lives costs for Red Army the Tuhahcevski " ideas of the decisive offensive and deep battle” in the 1941-42.
The all of most succesfull soviet military designs like tanks T-34 , Mig-3, Yak and 76-mm artillery gun has been taken into the service after his “reforms”
At the direct resault of his 'reforms" in the mid 1941 the Red Amry had enourmous figures of tanks and the same the foolish fighters I-15/16( that already during the Spanish Civil war were recognized as obsolet) , but ONLY 10-15% of armory has been capable to compete with GErmans wearponry.

[B5N2KATE]

Stalin was a gigantic mistake to begin with.

Ex-bankrobber for the Boshevik cause, and with about as much personality as a Hyde Park statue…ironic that he should be the focus of a “cult of personality”. Stalin was nothing less than a disaster for the intellectuals of the October Revolution. A tiny intellect with nothing more than his own place in history in mind. Orwell was right to point to him as the chief cause of Russian problems. Thank God generals like Shaposhnikov or Zukhov could actually shout him down. Timoshenko (gruff Kulik that he was) could also face Stalin down in a shouting contest. The Red Army of 1941 needed STAFF OFFICERS more than anything, rather than cronys (like Buddeny) from the Moscow 1st Cavalry Division. If Germany had access to unlimited manpower as the Soviets did, the situation at the end of 1941 would have been much different.

As Napolean once said…“God is on the side of the biggest battalions.”

[B5N2KATE]

Theres a great What If for history…

“What if Vladimir I. Uliyanov had not succumbed to a series of strokes in 1924?”

The Soviet Union may well have emerged into the post-ww1 world in a fit state to negotiate with. Lenin was nothing if not intelligent, and relations with the outside world are a matter of great speculation had he not died. Stalin was nothing more than a bloody murderer. The Great Patriotic War is such a catchy title, and it ignores the very fact that Russians fought themselves and a foreign invader. Had Nazi policy been less barbarous, large sections of the Soviet Union would have gladly fought to rid their nation of Stalinism…

Russians looking back to Stalin with rosetinted glasses…remember your own dead from 1924 (Collectivization) onwards…dare I mention the Show Trials, the State “Organs”, the NKVD…not to mention various purges culminating in the Great Purge…if you really think this is great management of your own people, consider why it is that we in the West still don’t trust the “Russian” modus operendi as far as we can throw it.

Modern Oil company people that I talk to state catagorically that Russian businesses will not pay their bills or meet commitments…money (always paid in Foreign currency) simply DISSAPPEARS…NOBODY wants to do business with Russian companies. You guys should look at your Mafiosi style and wonder why your economy is still ruined, even after masses of capital investment, and country full of raw materials. It was the same under Stalin…not much has changed in this respect at all.

[B5N2KATE]

As for reforms…Timoshenko and Zukhov were directly inspired by Tuhachevsky. Zukhov was one of his Chief proteges, but not sufficient to be purged himself. As for Red Army weaponry “10-15%” effective, this is such a fallacy. What the Red Army lacked in 1941 was STAFF WORK…relatively small groups of well directed Germans were achieving results all out of proportion to their size for the very lack of staff planning, and contingency planning by staff officers like Zukhov. Georgi makes the claim that during the battle for Moscow, after Vyazma/Bryansk, NOT ONE Soviet division or higher formation was encircled, and troops went from prepared position to prepared position, and were as bogged down by the “raspuista” as the Germans claim to have been, cancelling the effects out and making German claims that “Typhoon” was stopped by the “weather conditions” sound laughable in the extreme. Generals like Buddeny “led from the front” in the grand old style, making no thought to what might happen if operations forced a retreat. Zukhov’s gift to STAVKA was a resumption of this very professionalism in the Soviet military again…and just in time too. Their equipment was GOOD (including their tanks…lack of radios could be rectified), but their grand tactical and contingencey staff work STANK. It got better with experience, as did the pool of veterans from the survivors of the encirclement debacles. Infantry tactics remained simple and brutal throughout the war, costing many lives through unimaginative thichheadedness. Any Army needing to field “blocking units” like the 1st NKVD Division has got to see itself as not much better than a well equipped RABBLE with serious morale problems, but a rabble that got more and more practice at what it did. They were still losing tens of thousands of troops per/engagement in 1945!!!

[B5N2KATE]

Russians often critcize Western historians, but what we get from the Russians themselves is so unreliable as history one wonders whether Orwell’s “Ministry of Truth” is yet alive and well and participating directly in altering the record of the Greatly Misnamed Patriotic War."

I prefer to call it “Round 2 of the Russian Civil War”, with the “German Legion” involved…

Patriotism it is not when it’s at the behest of the “Politruk with The Pistol”.

How many Soviet citizens died from STARVATION behind Russian lines?
How much of the Russian war effort went into producing war material rather than food?
The Soviets LOVE to downgrade the LEND LEASE role in making this “miracle of production” possible, not to mention the kick along we gave to Stalin’s terrible regime.

Face it…Churchill and Roosevelt played one dictatorship (Germany) off against an even bigger enemy (Socialism).

Ever wondered why the Germans are so PRO EUROPE now?

They want more than anything to be on the winning side this time…

[B5N2KATE]

The greatest impetus to reforming the Soviet Miltary was the severe kick in the pants dished out by the WINTER WAR of 39-40.

Timoshenko (with protege Zukhov in his old post as Commander of the Kiev Special Military District) would not have been ALLOWED to act at all had there been no catatrophe at Suomussalmi.

Calling Purge Victims “idiots and criminals” is only indicative of this Putin inspired look at the Old Soviet Regime as being anything but the poor managers of people that they were. Old Socialists seem to glorify their “Empire” as something to be admired. Makes the “British Empire” and the present “Benevolent Pax-Americana” look positively inspired.

REMEMBER…Gulags were created to “open up” the Siberian interior. Regular, paid labour and private enterprise would not touch it. State “Organs” arrested many for Camp service on a QUOTA basis!!! All to provide slaves to open up regions of the “Union” that even State sanctioned commerce would not touch!

HAH! What kind of policy is that?..MORALLY BANKRUPT

[Chevan]

@B5N2KATE

Stalin was a gigantic mistake to begin with.

Ex-bankrobber for the Boshevik cause, and with about as much personality as a Hyde Park statue…ironic that he should be the focus of a “cult of personality”. Stalin was nothing less than a disaster for the intellectuals of the October Revolution. A tiny intellect with nothing more than his own place in history in mind. Orwell was right to point to him as the chief cause of Russian problems. Thank God generals like Shaposhnikov or Zukhov could actually shout him down. Timoshenko (gruff Kulik that he was) could also face Stalin down in a shouting contest. The Red Army of 1941 needed STAFF OFFICERS more than anything, rather than cronys (like Buddeny) from the Moscow 1st Cavalry Division. If Germany had access to unlimited manpower as the Soviets did, the situation at the end of 1941 would have been much different.

As Napolean once said…“God is on the side of the biggest battalions.”

You see yo just repeat the old tupical mistakes.
This is the one additional confirmation , what coud be if someone don’t wish to think.
Firstly the Bang of Bolshevicks Criminals " (so called “intellectuals”) in head of Leon Trockij-Bernstain ( who in fact organized the “October revolution”) sanctioned the Big Red Terror in the 1918 when in the st. Petersburg have been publically executed about 10 000 of peoples for few days.
Secondary , trying to protect the “intellectuals” - you are simply ignore the history, indeed all of those “intellectuals” including Lenin-Blank have been responsible for the Brutality during the Civil war.( far befor Stalin took the real power in Party).
Third, you contradict to yourself, claiming that Stalin with “tiny intellect” was able to eliminate all of those 'intellectuals-bastards" who dreamed about “World Proletarian Revolution” and started the Polish Military March to the Warsaw in the 1920 like Trockij.
And finaly…you could not understand the monster without study of his environment.
This is just sort of neo-belshevistic revisionism to justify the “OLd Bolshevicks intellectuals” who indeed havestarted whole the terro mashine.
So you looks rather as a revisionist who heroize the Boslhevicks criminals, traing to portray the “dirty Stalin” on the background of “intellectuals”.

Stalin was nothing less than a disaster for the intellectuals of the October Revolution.

As i suspected you know a nothing about relations in ComParty.
Stalin was indeed very usefull for the bolshevick in the initial period of civil war , he even , have been sended to command the REd Army troops in Caricin , where he succesfully repealed serias Wite Guard attack.

[Chevan]

@B5N2KATE

As for reforms…Timoshenko and Zukhov were directly inspired by Tuhachevsky. Zukhov was one of his Chief proteges, but not sufficient to be purged himself. As for Red Army weaponry “10-15%” effective, this is such a fallacy. What the Red Army lacked in 1941 was STAFF WORK…relatively small groups of well directed Germans were achieving results all out of proportion to their size for the very lack of staff planning, and contingency planning by staff officers like Zukhov. Georgi makes the claim that during the battle for Moscow, after Vyazma/Bryansk, NOT ONE Soviet division or higher formation was encircled, and troops went from prepared position to prepared position, and were as bogged down by the “raspuista” as the Germans claim to have been, cancelling the effects out and making German claims that “Typhoon” was stopped by the “weather conditions” sound laughable in the extreme. Generals like Buddeny “led from the front” in the grand old style, making no thought to what might happen if operations forced a retreat. Zukhov’s gift to STAVKA was a resumption of this very professionalism in the Soviet military again…and just in time too. Their equipment was GOOD (including their tanks…lack of radios could be rectified), but their grand tactical and contingencey staff work STANK. It got better with experience, as did the pool of veterans from the survivors of the encirclement debacles. Infantry tactics remained simple and brutal throughout the war, costing many lives through unimaginative thichheadedness. Any Army needing to field “blocking units” like the 1st NKVD Division has got to see itself as not much better than a well equipped RABBLE with serious morale problems, but a rabble that got more and more practice at what it did. They were still losing tens of thousands of troops per/engagement in 1945!!!

Just the one more mistake.
Are you seriously think that the man , who probably read the only “Resun-Suvorov historian” ( sort of Devid Irving in the west) could teach us here the “right view” on russian history?
The desasters of hight command of Red Army was obvious without your posts.
But the problem - what you compare with?
The “relatively small groups of well directed Germans” who recently ( in the 1941) kicked out and captured WHOLE Western and Central Europe for two years.
Certainly in the 1941 the GErman Army was the BEST Army in the world, leaded by hight skill professionals.
Even if in 1940 ,far his greates triumph, they succesfully crushed the France for 6 weeks.
So you please don’t twist the history youself:)
The Soviet STAFF WAS ENOUGH effective to repeal the Japane agressions in HAlking Hol in 1938-39.
At least it was no lower than the Japane STAF , that as you probably know, (in case if you read something except Resun), who so succesfully beated the UK?US troops in Southern-Asia in 1941-42.
The Winter war was a serious lack , but GErmans ( best army in the world in 1941) made the same mistakes only two year later.

[Chevan]

@B5N2KATE

Russians often critcize Western historians, but what we get from the Russians themselves is so unreliable as history one wonders whether Orwell’s “Ministry of Truth” is yet alive and well and participating directly in altering the record of the Greatly Misnamed Patriotic War."

I prefer to call it “Round 2 of the Russian Civil War”, with the “German Legion” involved…

Patriotism it is not when it’s at the behest of the “Politruk with The Pistol”.

The one of most amazing thing in this forum----sometimes people make me laught or enjoy of his sensless post.
Just without personal offensives, OK?
Jaust take a look at comic picture…
The assian Japane wearponry so…r (with Japan Bomber avatar) protecting the bang of “bolshevicks murders-intellectuals”, rushophobian - will teach russian to the THEIR History…
Ha HA ha ha :D:)

But you better don’t worry, do you think you first rusophobian here who was aimed to “correct my views”?

How many Soviet citizens died from STARVATION behind Russian lines?

How many…?
What Resun wrote about this?

How much of the Russian war effort went into producing war material rather than food?

How much…?
May be you delight me with YOUR ONLY realible archives datas?

The Soviets LOVE to downgrade the LEND LEASE role in making this “miracle of production” possible, not to mention the kick along we gave to Stalin’s terrible regime.

Soviet loves, but i/m russian , forget about?
And i never downgrade the LEND LISE ( chack the special thread)
P.S. and one request if you please…
Could you not post the many times in a row, mixing the different topics into one thread?

[Chevan]

@B5N2KATE

… … They were still losing tens of thousands of troops per/engagement in 1945!!!

Almost forget to answer at this stoopid sentence.
You make a rought mistakes in rushophobian hysteria, this is well explained.This is not your personal lack.
Sorry in future i can’t answer for all of your sensless posts, this is not easy for me technically:)
You absolutly right about 1945.The soviets in 1945 still losed tentsh of thousands

Bat thier enemies losed handreads of thousands
Let me teach you a short lesson on REAL history, my dear tovarisch:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_berlin
The soviest loses - 80 000
Germans killed - 480 000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Offensive
Soviets loses 50 000 wounded or killed
GErmans loses - 900 000 killed, wounded or caprured.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Storm
The soviet loses 30 000 killed and wounded
Japane loses 100 000 + 640 000 of pows.
As could you see, the doctor Goebbels blunder doesn’t work all time right, so you have to use it selectively…