Black Gold - What happens when it's gone?

Your not wrong with this RS

Look how we haven’t developed since 1960. Then I knew a lot of people who ran chooks in their suburban back yards and grew their own vegies and fruit trees. Now the chooks come frozen in freezer trucks from half a continent away, and the fruit and some of the vegies in refrigerated containers from half a planet away. None of that energy was required when we went into the back yard to get our meal.

I think we’ve lost the plot, big time, with globalisation etc. It serves the corporations who are buggering the planet for profit, but not the people who live on it.

Prawns, caught on the West Coast of Scotland are frozen, shipped to China, processed by Chinese and then shipped back here for sale. If thats not madness I dont know what is. All to same a few pence the local processing plant gets closed and these things are shipped twice around the globe.

Mate, that is beyond madness.

What’s lost sight of in the endless quest for cheapest labour and production is that you still get what you pay for.

The Chinese are notorious for squeezing every last cent of profit out of things, such as by using cheaper materials than the ones specified regardless of health consequences at their end or ours. http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/mattel-recalls-more-toys/2007/09/05/1188783320078.html?s_cid=rss_news

Major supermarkets here flog Vietnamese prawns, at about a half to a third of the price of the local bigger and better product. They’re astonishing in several respects, notably their bright orange colour and the pervasive chemical taste which prevents you tasting any prawn. And there are other longstanding doubts about them.

http://www.food.gov.uk/news/pressreleases/2002/mar/51374

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22186347-601,00.html

http://www.campylobacterblog.com/tags/fda/

I wouldn’t knowingly eat prawns processed in China or any other developing country.

It’d be interesting to see a full analysis of the energy and environmental
components of that.

If they were processed in Scotland there’s no fuel oil and exhaust and bilge water etc for ships to and from China.

Processing in Scotland would be from energy run on cleaner standards than in China.

It’s hard to see how this could be better from an energy or environmental viewpoint than local processing. It just works on the dollars because labour and, presumably, energy in China is cheap enough to overcome the cost of transport to and from Scotland.

I’d take a punt that other reasons it’s cheaper in China are because there aren’t the same environmental controls on the processing plant and health and safety requirements for workers and so on, that all add to the cost of Western production.

Actually this is becoming a seriouse problem today.
Two years ago the dastard Chineses drope the 100 tonns of liquid danger chamical product to the river that runs near the russian city Habarovsk. The all fish immediatelly die but the most importaint problem was the lack of fresh water in the city for the month.
Althought the China bring official appologies and has realised the clearing of the river coast- there is no any guaranties it wll never happen again.
It seems that Chinas gov do not even try to worry about environmental controls.

Oh what a great thing the " Wind-farm": double effect- the energy for the heat , and the birds for a dinner:D

Let’s quash a few myths here: wind power is not cheap, which is why it is heavily subsidised. It is not reliable. Anyone who believes otherwise should pay the full unsubsidised price for it, and should not get any when the wind is blowing too softly or too strongly.

Sea levels have been rising since the end of the last ice age at more or less a constant rate, they are not rising any faster now than they were early in the 20th century (in some places they were rising faster then), and some other places such as the Maldives has seen sea level drops of around a foot in the last 30 years (most likely due to ocean currents). I live below sealevel, so I should know. all these enormous estimates of sealevel rises are based on the flawed computer models mentioned above, and political exaggerations.

Yes, it’s crazy shipping prawns from Scotland around the world and back, no arguments. I’ll make no comment about workshy jocks though (thought I’d add that into rile firefly:D)

Chinese river mysteriously turns red

BEIJING - A half-mile section of China’s Yellow River turned “red and smelly” after an unknown discharge was poured into it from a sewage pipe, state media said Monday.

The incident in Lanzhou, a city of 2 million people in western Gansu province, follows a string of industrial accidents that have poisoned major rivers in China over the last year, forcing several cities to shut down their water systems.

It wasn’t immediately clear what was tainting the section of the Yellow River. Environmental protection officials took samples and were trying to determine whether the sewage was toxic, the official Xinhua news agency said.

“Residents were alarmed to see a sewage pipe pouring red water into the country’s second longest river” on Sunday between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m., the agency said.

A news photo from the local paper showed a resident in the city center by a stretch of the river — a drinking water source for millions — that was rose-colored instead of the usual milky brown. Other photos showed patches of bright red and pink.

An official from Yellow River Water Resource Committee in Lanzhou confirmed the pollution. He said they were still analyzing the sample and had not determined what caused it. Like many Chinese officials, he gave only his family name, Wang.

Environmental protection has taken on new urgency for Chinese leaders following a November 2005 chemical spill in the Songhua River in northeastern China which forced the city of Harbin to shut down its water supply for days and sent toxins flowing into Russia.

China’s cities are among the world’s smoggiest, and the government says its major rivers, canals and lakes are badly polluted by industrial, agricultural and household pollution.

Hundreds of millions of people live without adequate supplies of clean drinking water. Throughout the country, protests have erupted over complaints by farmers that uncontrolled discharges by factories are ruining crops and poisoning water supplies.

“The Yellow River is the mother river of our country,” said one bulletin board posting Monday on Sina.com, a major Chinese news Web site. “See how it has been ruined!”

Said another: “Let the mayor of Lanzhou drink the water and then they will immediately have measures in place to deal with the environmental pollution.”

Kang Mingke, an official with the city’s environment protection bureau, said there were no chemical plants located nearby, according to Xinhua. He said the red water could have come from central heating companies who dye their hot water to prevent people from diverting it for their own use, the news agency said.

John Hocevar, an oceans specialist for Greenpeace USA, said that the photos he had seen of the spill might indicate a “red tide,” a burst of toxic plankton in the water, spurred by the presence of nutrient-rich waste from the sewage spill.

Alternatively, he said industrial toxins could have caused the red color. “It’s too early to say what’s exactly in this,” he said. “It could be just about anything.”

Noting that local government officials have said there is no industry in the area, Hocevar said if the discoloration is the result of industrial waste, it would have to come from illegal dumping.

“For a spill this size to have this kind of effect, it would have to be illegal,” he said.
http://bbs2.people.com.cn/bbs/ReadFile?whichfile=102183&typeid=15

Before getting too excited about the red river, when I was a kid in the mid 1960’s we used to swim in the Maribyrnong River where tidal flows made it as red as the one in the picture, and green at other times, from discharges a mile or so downstream, probably from the government ammunition factory complex. We thought it was funny swimming in coloured water (and climbing power poles on the tramway bridge to get a higher jump into the river). No idea what the chemicals were, but they couldn’t do it today.

China isn’t doing any worse than a lot of other countries did. It just has the misfortune to be doing these things a lot later as it develops its ‘catch up’ economy when much of the rest of the world has moved on to much higher standards. Which is what makes China, and India and other places, so attractive to the money men in the countries with higher standards. There’s a fair chance that whatever made the Chinese river red, people in developed countries got some benefit from it in some product(s), as we do from much of China’s activity.

Which is why we need global energy and environmental practices, and why we’re probably not going to get them because the rich nations are trying to dictate terms to the poorer nations that arrived too late to enjoy the same practices that made the rich nations rich.

Not unlike Germany and Japan arriving too late to get the profitable colonies that the European powers had grabbed (including in China and India), and we all know where that led.

While it may not be a problem, because the Chinese are doing the same as major industrialized nations 30, 40, 50 years ago, they are polluting on a massive scale. Realistically China could produce enough material to supply the entire world market if every other factory in the world closed down. They have the capacity to expand their industrial base rapidly, the political will and the disdain to ignore all enviromental controls.

Very interesting a US report tabled today lists coal fueled power stations in NSW as the worst polluting power stations in the world. Gobblycock! The report must have been funded by Al Gore and published by Senator Bob Brown!

digger

This is one of the problems of “globalization”. We get some things “cheaper” but only because a lot of the costs are equally distributed on all of us and do not actually cost money, but environmental damage.

They could, except that sooner or later they’re going to grab the benefits of their economic growth and revalue their currency, which will make them less competitive. They could end up like Japan, originally a similar cheap labour industrial powerhouse that by the 1980’s was looking for cheap labour markets, of which China became one. Or just do another crazy backflip and decide to squander it all with a new cultural revolution to put the hardline commos back in the driver’s seat.

The sealevel will only begin to rise significantly when big land iceshields melt, the ice that is already swimming doesn’t really count. You should start worrying only when greenland actually becomes green again.
But the dutch are always welcome here in germany :mrgreen:

Which raises the question of whether, ignoring the practical difficulties in implementing it, there should be a form of environmental currency attached to money currency to balance these problems out.

The chinese face much worse consequences than germany, britain, france, the us etc, because they’re doing a crash programme. Where the aforementioned nations all had time to adapt to only a few problems at a time china faces in a decade all the problems the others had in a century and they interact and magnify each other.

Oh mate i fear to think what could it led if China will want a its own colonies in for instance Syberia;)

Definatly, a mature world society would have to actually bilance all costs, not just those on bank accounts. There is a grain of truth in the agents(matrix) analysis that we behave like a virus today; if we are not careful, we might very well manage to kill our host in a century or two, at least for us as a species. It sounds hippie style, I know.

They would only go there if they found oil in … wait a minute, they did :mrgreen:

Unfortinatelly this is a tupical situation today Nick when the the few rich owners or “green peace” activist ( behind which are usially hide the Oil-companies lobby) blocked the realy usefull ecological projects.
The sad reality of mothern world.
In fact today the Oil owners try to limite of stop the developing of the new Energy-production technologies via the buying up wholesale the patent of research.

But i hope the West will not leave us alone to face the China if the war will inevitable right?:wink:

Let’s hope it will not reach this stage Chevan. The problem is, as China’s economy expands and the demands for raw materials increases, so will the costs. I think this is when the Chinese will embark on gun boat diplomacy at least.

The one resource most at threat for the Chinese is water. The water supply for the country has been deteriorating in quality for years now and there is the very real possibility their quest for economic expansion may stuff up what water they have left.

digger

Which is where you and I come in, mate, as inhabitants of one place that China needs for its resources.

Will it be the sequel to the pre-WWII exercise where we were negotiating with Japan to give them access to the north west minerals etc and, on one view, might have been able to do a deal that made us less of a target? From memory (don’t have the book) there’s a decent treatment of this aspect in Bob Wurth’s Saving Australia: Curtin’s secret peace with Japan,.

Why is China expanding its navy ‘to protect its trade routes’? Who’s threatening them?

The one resource most at threat for the Chinese is water. The water supply for the country has been deteriorating in quality for years now and there is the very real possibility their quest for economic expansion may stuff up what water they have left.

Sounds racist, but it’s not intended to be. That’s par for the course in much of Asia.

Again, it’s no different to what the West was doing until pretty recently, treating rivers as carriers for waste and the ocean as an inexhaustible dumping ground.