pdf27,
Thank you for the lead. I hadn’t heard about the accuracy comparisions between the two. It really gives me something to delve into more.
Check out the size of the Grand Slam carried by the Lanc and dropped accurately on targets such as the Bielefield Viaduct:
There’s rather a good book on the squadron that should give you a good starting point by Paul Brickhill called “The Dam Busters” which IIRC covers the entire war for 617 squadron from their formation for the dams raid through the rest of the war as specialised droppers of very large bombs indeed (Tallboy/Grand Slam).
At least, I think that’s the book - been a while since I read it and the copy is at my parent’s house so I can’t check it. That should give you enough basic information on sight designations, uses, tactics, etc. to start digging properly.
G’day,
Okay I’m late on this debate too. You must excuse me. You guys have pretty well covered the debate and the only thing I will add is that like Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Dresden stirs emotions in people who for the most part, did not live under the threat of war. The people of today have little understanding of total war and perhaps the most vicious totalarian regimes ever.
One small point. pdf27 raised the subject of the RN protecting the dominions. The RN was seen very little in Australian and New Zealand waters, especially after Singapore.
Regards to all,
Digger.
IIRC most of them were hiding at Trincomalee, using the threat of a “fleet in being” to tie down the Japanese to an extent. They were probably too weak to do much else at the time.
In any case, the prewar plan was for the RN to protect the Dominions (they after all didn’t have their own navies capable of doing so). However as they say no plan survives contact with the enemy, and this one certainly didn’t.
G’day,
All RAN units were eventually withdrawn to Australia and suffered heavily against the Japanese Imperial Navy. Likewise the Royal Navy copped a battering and there wasn’t much of a naval presence left to cover the dominions.
Back to Bomber Harris, during the war he was much admired and of course received a knighthood. Personally he was greatly affected by the Coventry bombing and one can only guess the emotions stirred in him. In reality he wanted to get the job done and if that meant blasting every German city to rubble, so be it. Britain did not ask for war, and I can understand his reasoning.
I think a lot of the bad press began when Churchill, ever the politician abandoned him after negative news reports about the raid. Churchill could see his political future slipping away if he remained too close. As it was he was dumped at the first elections after the war.
Regards to all,
Digger.
According with the standards of Nuremberg tribunal Bomber Harris had to be hung as the war criminal.
With the burning by napalm and by the phosphoric bombs of German’s cities it were always aimed into the center section. He didn’t interested military objects or plants. Terror and genocide of German population was its central objective. The bombing of Dresden of 13-14 February 1945 was the worst criminal.
The simple fact that he did its job not could be considering as justification.
Nazi criminals, also simply did its work.
I do believe I heard that Harris was some what shunned in post-War British society, and that he was truly thought of as “our bastard,” which he indeed was. Along with Gen. Curtis LeMay, was our American bastard.
Sure, right after Stalin and most of the Soviet High Command.
Agree .
Together with Trumen, Cherchill and all of allied Airforce Hight Command for genocide of Japanese cities.
We’ll need more judges and lawyers.
Who said this?:
“Killing ______ didn’t bother me very much at that time… I suppose if I _____ the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.”
"Every soldier thinks something of the moral aspects of what he is doing. But all war is immoral and if you let that bother you, you’re not a good soldier. "
I don’t know
Really who said this?
Gen. Curtis LeMay USAF -A certifiable nutcase by the Kennedy Administration…
Normally I just let your insinuations pass by, but I can’t just let this one slide as it’s too blatant.
The counts at Nuremberg were:
- Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of crime against peace
- Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crime against peace
- War crimes
- Crimes against humanity
They all have clear (ish) legal definitions. Counts 1 and 2 do not apply to Harris. Count 3 he is innocent of, as the international law of the time governing war crimes was the Hague convention of 1907. This explicitly permits the bombardment of cities, provided they are defended (on the ground) and the attackers make an attempt to avoid those protected places that the defenders have clearly marked. Count 4 deals with genocide, etc. which again he was not involved in.
Nope, but the fact that such attacks were explicitly permitted by the Hague convention could indeed be considered justification. Incidentally, learn a bit about the effects of weapons before going off on a rant - the British leaned at Coventry, London and a few other places that the most effective way to take out the industry in a town is to burn the centre down (as happened at Coventry). Machine tools are fiendishly hard to destroy with explosives (needing practically a direct hit - during the battle of Britain they would literally sweep them off, hang a tarpaulin overhead and get back to work). However, all of the services they need (water, electricity, transport, etc.) would at the time go through the town centres. Destroy them and the industry is paralysed - hence the policy of attacking town centres.
Hi pdf.
You are the “danger” opponent , my respect 
Is your life principle:" brevity - sister of the talent"
According to st. 6 regulations of International Military Tribunal war criminals were those, who completed any of the enumerated crimes. All military crimes were divided into three groups:
crime against the peace, namely: planning, preparation, unbinding or conducting aggressive war in the disturbance of international contracts, agreements or assertions or the participation in the general plan or the plot, directed toward the realization of any of the actions outlined above.
military crimes, namely: the disturbance of laws or customs of war. They include the murders, tortures or withdrawal into the servitude or for other purposes of the citizen of the territory occupied; murder or the torture of prisoners of war or those, who are located in the sea; the murder of hostages; the robbery of public or private property; senseless destruction cities or villages; the destruction, not justified by military necessity, and other crimes.
crime against humanity, namely: murder, destruction, enslavement, reference and other cruelties, perfected in the attitude of citizen to either during the war or the pursuit on the political, racial or religious motives for the purpose of realization either in connection with any crime, which is subject to the jurisdiction of tribunal, regardless of the fact, were these actions the disturbance of the internal right of the country, where they were perfected, or not.
… Counts 1 and 2 do not apply to Harris.
Oops, are you sure ?,…
So tell me plaese what was the military necessity of burning Dresden? And killing at least 25 000 civils (according reducing British data)
As you know official target was the railway station ( which began to work in whole power already next day).
P.S.
I think if Nuremberg tribunal was the law court above the war criminals and not pitiful public by violence above germans, then all chief war criminals would not be placed in the building of the law court
Guys, we already had the Dresden thread and this is definately not going to be taken over discussing Dresden. Chevan, if you want to discuss Harris this is fine, if you want to make it a Dresden discussion, it is not fine.
If you continue with this line I will have to think seriously about removing any posts.
I wont have this thread hijacked for your War Crininal agenda!
If you wish to discuss War Criminals, open a new thread.
Yeah, and hold all generals accountable to the same standards you hold British Air Marshals too.
You could on and on expanding the list by accusing ground war generals of targeting civilian areas with artillery. Or not maintaining the “good-order and conduct,” the discipline, of their troops.
And I am no fan of Bomber Harris or Crazy LeMay…
Firefly , indeed i didn’t wish to repeat again Dresden thread .
I just posted my personal oppinion about Harris( by the way very interesting person) and explained why.
But pdf began “to play the old plate” and I was forced to answer.
If you continue with this line I will have to think seriously about removing any posts.
OK is for me.
Thats fine. Regarding Harris, we cannot label him with todays values or indeed take him out of context.
Harris was a bomber exponent between the wars at a time when it was thought that bombers were paramount. Indeed before about 1937 the whole of the RAF was geared around bombers and not fighters. The fighter pilots were regarded somewhat as second class and an irrelavance to the RAF.
You could say that the whole of the RAF was imbued with the bomber spirit and so it isnt surprising to see Bomber Command attempting with the tools at hand from late 1942 to realise the pre-war theories of Douhet etc.
What I’m really trying to say is that the man was like many many others, a product of his time.
I think that all members participating in this discussion seems to forget about psychological effect which bombing of German cities had on German soldiers at the fronts. All fronts. Also German administration of occupied countries all over Europe was subjected to intense psychological pressure.
It’s something which is hard to measure, but certainly bombing and thinking about families being subjected to it was not so nice for German soldiers.
Once again, area bombing was not invented by Britons or Yanks.
And now a small off topic:
Couple of days ago I get email from my friend in Poland. he is a professional historian of WWII and his special field is RAF, Luftwaffe and air war.
He was invited to the ceremony of decorating pilots which participated in bombing campaigns.
So far all glory went to fighter pilots and the last surviving pilots of Lancasters and Wellingtons deserved recognition.
The whole event started with speach by Polish Air Force General - active service now - which for 20 minutes was mumbling about pilots which were thinking about Warsaw when bombing Germany and some other patriotic crap.
The next was a real bomber pilot. Elderly’s fellow speach was very short, he said: “I don’t remember thinking about Warsaw or about anything… I’m sure that we all were thinking just about two things - one - how to get over the target, and drop the s…t, and the second - how to get f…k out of there. Thank you very much for attention.”
And walked off the stage.
He used exact words in Polish and the whole assembly was left speechless for about a minute, but after initial consternation everything was as planned:
medal, flowers, salute, medal, flowers salute, medal, flowers, salute…
Cheers,
Lancer44