Bomber Harris, Criminal or Hero?

World War II British Military
#164

Exactly mate…
The goal of the soviet asks for the allies AF was to prevent the reinforcement of the Germans troops- no one told about bombinfg of cities, plants , industial objects and population areas.
The SUCH destruction of Dresden was very unpleasant surprise for the Soviet command - the allies burned practically all the city but the ( and consequentally the Soviet could not any more captured it;) To the contrast - the realway station and strategic brige - still was able to work.
I think you should agree - what sence of the SIMULAR destruction of Dresden had for the Soviet- Zero.
The Dresden could be very great “spoil of war” for the Stalin. But after the bombing- it was nothing more then the hills of crushed stones.

Cheers.

#165

Quoting from Frederick Taylor’s book’Dresden"

Page 243

The Americans now-delayed role was still dependent on the weather. They had nevertheless, on February 12. let the Soviet General Staff know through the US military mission in Moscow, of their plans to bomb the (Dresden) marshaling yards on the following day. This was strictly in accordance with the bombings line agreement requested by the Soviets at Yalta. The British were criticized for arrogance in not also formally advising the Soviets of their own linked raid.If the Soviets as Churchill’s interpretar at Yalta Hugh Lunghi asserts, specifically requested on two seperate occasions that Dresden be bombed, then there would be even less reason for the British to feel compelled, less than ten days later, yo dispatch a formal notification of such an intention. The object of the agreement was in any case, supposed to avoid accidental bombing of Russian forces, and the front was still sixty miles distant.

So as can be seen the Soviet High Command were aware of the impending raid, though not aware of British involvement. It also must be pointed out, negotiations between the Soviets and Americans were ongoing over the possibility of daylight shuttle raids of utilizing bases in the western Ukraine, around Poltava, against targets in Eastern Germany.

Regards digger

#166

As for claims the Dresden raid was mounted to deprive the Soviet Union of war booty, 796 Lancasters took part in the raid. Yet nearly one month later on the evenings of March11 and 12 against the Ruhr cities of Essen and Dortmund consisted of 1,079 and 1,108 bombers repectively.

Regards digger

#167

Sure mate the Soviet command knew about raids ( as it was planned in Yalta conference and in the negorations of Military staff).
But no one in the Soviet side did know the plans to drope the bombs DIRECTRLY to the centre of City- as we saw the military resauls was Zero in this way.
Do not mix the wishes of Soviets to crush the Germans realway sistem and the PERSONAL will of alles to strike the city of Dresden - No one from the western stuff did noticed this plan for the soviet command.
In this way the dozen of Lancasters that could carefully bombed out the Bridge through the Elba - this action should has A MACH MORE MILITARY PROFIT for the soviet side then the whole destruction of sity by a thousand of the USAAF/RAF bombers.
True the soviet side knoew about reids but no one know about REAL aims and tactic thet allies used for.

#168

Mate it were 796 Lancasters ONLY in first attack on evening of 13 feb ,Next attack through the 3 hour - 529 Lancasters , third attack - morning 14 feb - 311 USAAF B-17.
The total scope of dropped bomb FOR 13 hours - 3 900 tonns !!! - this MUCH more than for the Essen and Dortmud.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden
But the my point is not that- The Dresden was not the biggest victim of firebombing.
As we could see from the map the of Dresden above - to parallize the transport system of Dresden it was need to drope the several bombs at the brige and realway station - not the firebombing of city with a million of population and refugees.
The square of military objects of sity consists - no more few percent of firebombing zone -the the MOST of military objects WERE OUT OF ZONE bombing.
In the resault - the dresden bombing has a “glory” the most unhuman and unsensless firebombing raid in WW2.

#169

For this theory to stand up, the Americans and British had to know that Stalin had given orders to capture industrial equipment.

Did they?

#170

Chevan, nothing can alter the fact Harris intent from the time he took over RAF Bomber Command was the destruction of Germany’s cities. As effective or not as this policy may have been it was a direct response to Hitler’s avowed destruction of British cities and the threatened invasion of England and this policy was supported by Churchill, the British government and people.

Like it or not this policy played a part in the defeat of Nazi Germany. The associated loss of German lives was to be expected but hardly mourned by anyone on the Allied side during the war, including Josef Stalin who knew the Allied bombing campaign was diverting Luftwaffe attention from the Eastern front and impeding the ability of German industry to supply the German armed forces, which became critical to the German forces fighting in the East.

It is rarely mentioned roughly the same number of Soviet citizens were killed by Luftwaffe bombing raids as German civilians killed by the Allied strategic bombing offensive. Where are the shelves of books on the subject of the four days of Luftwaffe bombing raids against Stalingrad, killing 40,000 civilians, What about the 800,000 plus civilians of Leningrad killed by bombing shelling and siege? Other Soviet cities such as Minsk, Kiev Sebastapol suffered similar fates. Where are the mounds of books devoted to telling their story? True the conventions of war allow almost any tactic of destruction against a defended fortress town(as in Konigsberg) and the people within it once it has refused to surrender. But is such a thing on such a scale. morally less or more than the bombing of Dresden?

Remember by this stage of the war Hitler had washed his hands of the German people, and yet the German people as much as they suffered under bombing and the deprivation it caused, did not rise up against the very regime and man who had abandoned them. As far as the British, the Americans and the Soviets fighting against Nazi Germany at this stage of the war there was a common purpose-the destruction of the enemy until the terms of unconditional surrender were met. If this did not happen, then Germany would be destroyed and if need be so would it’s people. A sad fact but true and ratified by ALL the Allied partners.

Regards digger.

#171

German cities suffering more than 50% destruction of buildings, industry, infrastructure.

Eastern Germany-Berlin and Dresden.

Western Germany-Hamburg, Hannover, Munich, Frankfurt, Essen, Dortmund, Dusseldorf, Monchengladbach and Cologne.

The theory Allied bombing was to destroy German cities that would fall under Soviet occupation does not hold up.

Regards digger

#172

Given the not very accurate bombing in WWII and the location of the railway targets around the city centre, any raid on the railway targets was bound to hit a lot of the centre of the city, and a lot of other residential and industrial areas. The Soviets had to know this. If it was of great importance to them to avoid this, one expects that they would have objected when informed of the impending raids 24 hours beforehand.

Do not mix the wishes of Soviets to crush the Germans realway sistem and the PERSONAL will of alles to strike the city of Dresden - No one from the western stuff did noticed this plan for the soviet command.
In this way the dozen of Lancasters that could carefully bombed out the Bridge through the Elba - this action should has A MACH MORE MILITARY PROFIT for the soviet side then the whole destruction of sity by a thousand of the USAAF/RAF bombers.
True the soviet side knoew about reids but no one know about REAL aims and tactic thet allies used for.

From the USAF Historical report I quoted at #143.

The night raid by the RAF Bomber Command was intended to devastate the city area itself and thereby choke communications within the city and disrupt the normal civilian life upon which the larger communications activities and the manufacturing enterprises of the city depended. Further, the widespread area raid conducted by the British entailed bombing strikes against the many industrial plants throughout the city which were thus to be construed as specific targets within the larger pattern of the area raid.

There’s nothing remarkable about this in pattern bombing, horrible though it may be for the people on the ground.

The aim, as expressed in the quote, of choking communications etc by bombing the city is a reasonable approach.

Leaving aside the intended effect on civilian morale, it’s related to the choice between blowing up trains or planes and a train drivers’ or pilots’ assembly point. Killing, injuring and disrupting the people who can use things of military value can be just as, often more, effective than destroying the equipment they use. Sometimes they don’t even use equipment, which is why in WWII a surprising amount of artillery could be directed at just one MP directing traffic at a road junction. In Dresden there weren’t nice specific targets like MP’s at road (or rail) junctions or train drivers’ assembly points, but with the city in flames and everyone occupied with survival or firefighting etc they weren’t going to be running the trains on time either.

Which is what the Soviets wanted.

#173

Chevan

Separate issue.

Good to see you back.

Have you been soaking up some of that weak sunshine you think is summer up there, instead of attending to this forum? :smiley:

#174

Thanks RS, nice to see you too mate;)
Yea i was a little busy on the work for our forum.
Try to bring the few fresh ideas for this thread as Egorka asked;)
The f…king sunshine has tired me : +40 in the shade.
And how are you, i hope the winter in Australia is not like in Stalingrad in 1942;)

#175

Sure they knew Rising Sun.
There were no any doubts that the Soviets should try to cupture as much as the could - the soviet economic and industry had a total shortage of everething , the lands liberated from the germans were fully robbered and devastated. The tehnologic lack of soviet undustry forced the Red Army to captured the ANY equipment , materials and everithing that could be usefull …
Especially in the prospect of future problems with allies ( if the Lend-lise would stopped).

#176

Not as cold as Stalingrad my friend, but cold enough for us:roll: At the moment it would blow a dog off a chain. Lot’s of wind damge around Sydney and across the state tonight.

Stay warm mate;)

Regards digger

#177

Alarm! Too friendly! :!:

Inspiration: “The Western civilization is the pest of the world!”

Ahhhh… feel so much better now…

#178

An old Australian saying, contadicting the view of the temperance movement, is “Work is the curse of the drinking classes.”

Try to bring the few fresh ideas for this thread as Egorka asked

Mate, he’s been doing a sterling job holding up the Russian end, but it’s a bit much to expect him to do it all by himself. :smiley:

The f…king sunshine has tired me : +40 in the shade.

That’s global warming for you. Bloody China!

And how are you, i hope the winter in Australia is not like in Stalingrad in 1942

Nah, mate, nothing like Stalingrad in '42.

For a start, there’s no snow! :smiley:

And, better still, we’re not being shot at by Germans. :smiley:

Or, even better still, the Russians aren’t shooting at us, 'cos they were wild boys. :mrgreen:

But it gets really cold here in winter. Down to 3 or 4 degrees C. Some days it’s so cold we can’t go surfing, even with good wetsuits and the biggest southern swells. So, when there’s nothing else to do, we just drink and think.

But it’s hard to do both, so mostly we just drink.

#179

How does this fit in with the view you have expressed in other threads that Lend Lease and other non-Soviet Allied support wasn’t all that important to the Russian industrial and military powerhouse which steamrolled the Germans who committed everything that mattered to their eastern front, where the Soviet almost single-handedly defeated Germany?

If the Soviets could produce all they needed, what did it matter if the states they wanted as buffers against Western European attacks didn’t have any industrial capacity to capture?

#180

Phonetic translation may cause problems.

Correct version is:

“The Western civilisation is the pissed of the world.”

“Pissed” here means drunk.

Result: Westerners are friendly drunks.

No cause for alarm! :smiley:

#181

This is what you get when you have a nation descended from criminals, they’ll nick anything :wink:
That particular saying is originally by Oscar Wilde, who IIRC never even visited the antipodes!

#182

Rising Sun* wrote:
How does this fit in with the view you have expressed in other threads that Lend Lease and other non-Soviet Allied support wasn’t all that important to the Russian industrial and military powerhouse which steamrolled the Germans who committed everything that mattered to their eastern front, where the Soviet almost single-handedly defeated Germany?

Here we go again! “almost single-handedly” my ass!

Rising Sun, listen. I hope your were just being sarcastic. Right? Because I am tired to repeat that no normal person claims that the Soviet almost single-handedly defeated Germany. By the way it is not Germany. It is almost whole Europe under the German rule.

Anyway, Chevan and I were arguing that the lend-lease was not THE reason USSR did what it did. LL was a nice and very needed addition to the main effort.

Is not it also obvious that the winning powers take the retributions the way they want (almost). Especially a winner like USSR which devastation from the war was enormous. So the Western Allies had NO doubt that Stalin wants to get the booty. On the other hand I do not think that USA/UK specificaly tried to destroy the potential USSR booty. But I do not completely rule out that it could be part of their logic in the case of Dresden.

#183

The thing is, you guys have missed the point about Harris and consequently your thoughts are wide of the mark. But this is common.

Now if you attacked Harris’ record from the standpoint of OIL, then you have a sound arguement. This was Harris’ big mistake, refusing to budge from his policy of destroying German cities, which he and Churchill and the British cabinet saw as a legitimate war aim.

Had the RAF switched to bombing oil targets heavily in 1944, then the war may have been shortened by six to twelve months.

Regards digger