Renault didn’t last long here for that reason, even though the Alliance was Motortrend’s “Car of the Year” in 1984…
GMC=crap
Not true. Certainly not as true as it once was. Both GM and Ford have higher reliability ratings that their Euro counterparts…
Where GM and Ford lose is in “fit and finish,” (plain dashboards, lack of options, parts that don’t fit well together etc.) because they simply cannot afford to offer what the Japanese and some of the Euros do…
all i know is that the last GMC someone i know bought turned out to be a lemon, like a tin can with wheels
That’s ironic.
In WWII the Brits were impressed when US military vehicles started flowing their way. Mass produced parts could be fitted together without filing, hammering etc as everything was made to closer tolerances than Britain could manage with much of its production.
Statistical process control. Deming was the guru of this, and worked in the US during WW2. As a prophet is without honour in his own land, so Deming found himself unwanted in the US after WW2. The Japanese however practically bit his arm off in their enthusiasm for him to work there. The rest of what happened after he moved there to the Japanese car industry is history…
I associate the following comment with Deming, but maybe someone else made it. I think it came up in the context of a discussion about quality control. The comment was to the effect that setting up manufacturing processes to make sure every item is identical isn’t the same as ensuring they’re good quality.
I’m not sure about you guyes but i soon are going to buy a Toyota or probably Nissan.
But i have to say that the Mitshubishi Lancer is also very great for such price:)
Whatever you tells about it…
In comparition with the best European cars like BMW or Opel the Japs still produce an excellent quality, economical and highly computurized cars for more then real price.
Well the other alternative is the Korean cars like Kia ,Deawoo but i heared this cars dunger for its owned during crashtests.
So what is better Nissan March or Toyota Vitz?
Both super-economical enough cheap cars for the future.
( I mean future when the Oil will cost 150-200$ for barrel:)
Who has an good advise?
What’s wrong with a used Lada Niva? 
Well yes i’m sure the Henry Ford would have to say a lot in eye-to-eye discussion to me:)
But i know just one thing for the sure- he never force me to buy one of his cars:)
Well hi jrw.
I personally drive Lada 2110 and believe me i also have no problems with it:)
But i think this is not rather matter of habit to select a car,but a finantial ability.
So i pretty buy the Jap or Koreans than the European or ( God Save!! ) American
Correct. However, in a mass produced item if you do not have a production system capable of churning out all parts to within tolerance (i.e. parts produced to drawing) then you will NOT have a good quality product. It would be accurate to say that statistical process control is necessary but not sufficient to manufacture a good quality product.
The other side of quality is getting the design right in the first place. That’s my job, and is an entirely seperate can of worms.
What’s wrong with a used Lada Niva? It’ll cost nothing to run, because it won’t go anywhere. Even a new one will deliver the same benefits.
Seriously, here’s some general info, in case this information hasn’t got through the Russian censorship net. 
Toyota have long had a well-deserved reputation for building solid, reliable, durable cars.
Mitsubishi and Nissan less so. They’ve made some good ones, but they’ve made some dogs too. Old joke, from the seventies.
Q. What’s the difference between a Datsun (Nissan) 120Y and a Datsun 180B?
A. Sixty more mistakes.
But it always depends upon the model. Good makers have bad models, and vice versa. Then there was British Leyland. :evil:
Honda makes some good stuff, but overrated, over priced and over-complicated in many cases.
Kia and Daewoo have a way to go in catching up to the Japanese makes. Hyundai has improved a lot. It’s also owned by the same group as Kia, but they’re not necessarily built to the same standard.
Japan’s mainstream cars usually fall short of BMW, and most main Euro makes, for handling. But unless you’re on the limit, it won’t matter. Build quality might even be better than Euro in some Japanese cars, but not in Korean cars. The Korean cars might look as good in the showroom, but wait a few years and you’ll often notice they haven’t held up as well inside and outside. Less true now than even five years ago.
Then again, BMW’s down here have long suffered from deteriorating paint and cracked dashes and parcel shelves within a few years because they can’t handle our sun. Better now than even ten years ago. Newer models might be even better. I’ll let you know in a few years.
Check out the service requirements for whatever you’re interested in. You won’t be happy if you buy something that’s supposed to have a spark plug that lasts 100,000k but needs the engine half dropped to replace a dead plug at 20,000k.
Watch the lubrication requirements. A lot of the current models have very narrow oil galleys which will clog with oil that’s the wrong grade. Maybe even with oil of the right grade if it’s left in too long and gets too thick. Honda perfected this about 20 years ago with a good but unduly fragile motor that cost about half the car’s new price to replace a couple of years into owning it, if you put the wrong oil in. Not under warranty, either.
The problem with motor magazine reviews is that they’re written by people with the same mentality as motor car manufacturer engineers. None of them pay any attention to what’s involved in owning the car and maintaining it. Still, it’s best to read as many reviews as you can, and by people driving the car in the conditions you’ll use it in. Saabs might be good in icy Sweden, but they’re just expensive crap here.
Also, be bloody careful of future currency exchange rates. It can make replacement parts far too expensive if the rates shift against you in future. A cheap car can end up being more expensive to repair than an expensive one.
If you can, compare the parts lists. It’s a real bastard to buy a $15,000 car that has a $900 taillight unit and $1,200 bumper against a $20,000 car with a $300 tailight and $600 bumper. Even if you’re insured (I assume insurance exists in Russia :D), it’s still factored into the cost of insurance.
I’m not sure about you guyes but i soon are going to buy a Toyota or probably Nissan.
LOL Nissan? Don’t do it! I had one a few years back. Actually it wasn’t that bad of a car, but I didn’t mind selling the car that much either…In any case, Nissan is another example of the mistaken belief that Japanese equals automatic build quality, especially since they’re part owned by Renault ;)…Actually, to tell the truth, Nissan is okay, but I think Toyota is far more consistent…
But i have to say that the Mitshubishi Lancer is also very great for such price:)
I stand corrected on the “super” Lancer, the high end Lance is a great AWD sports performer, but the one in the States loses about a cool 100 horsepower (300 vs. the UK’s 400 horsies).
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/655720/mitsubishi_lancer_evo_8_mr_vs__lamborghini_murcielago/
Other than that, Mitsu offers very little. The Eclipse is a girly sports car (and about the only thing that sells here), I know something about cars and cannot even recall what their counter to the Toyota Camry/Mazda 6/Accord is (the Diamonte?)…And the economy Lancer, is completely owned in the US by the Civic/Mazda 3/Corolla/Ford Focus/Cobalt in the US market…
Whatever you tells about it…
In comparition with the best European cars like BMW or Opel the Japs still produce an excellent quality, economical and highly computurized cars for more then real price.
Yes, but this is not universal. The “Japs” like many car makers have gotten a tad lazy and are resting on their laurels. For instance, the Corolla hasn’t had an upgrade for at least four of five years now and is severally dated. the Civic has just gotten a bit weird, and it looks like the automotive press isn’t wild about the new Accord, and Mazda has been lax on upgrading the Mazda 6 (which is like an accord circa 2003), though the new 6 comes out this year.
And Toyota has had their problems too as far as quality. For instance, the Camry’s made in the late 1990s were known as “slugers” because the hotspots in the engine would cook the motor oil causing horrendous deposits…And many people think that Hondas are not what they once were. Although, most are actually made in America now…But that in no way explains their problems building an auto transmission that stands up in the Odyssey…
Well the other alternative is the Korean cars like Kia ,Deawoo but i heared this cars dunger for its owned during crashtests.
The Koreans are just now learning to make decent cars. But stay away from Kia and Daewoo, Hyundai has improved markedly though. I was actually looking at one, but have been scared off by some service dept. horror stories of replacing engines and trannys…
So what is better Nissan March or Toyota Vitz?
Both super-economical enough cheap cars for the future.
( I mean future when the Oil will cost 150-200$ for barrel:)
Who has an good advise?
Seriously, I’d go Toyota. Nissan is a decent car company, but they have had problems with quality. My Sentra SpecV was okay, though the brakes were maddeningly undersized and the engine began to burn synthetic oil at the rate of one liter per 5000 km, which is one of the reasons I let it go (I suspected the dealers and demo customers pounded on it before the engine set properly). And my brothers Nissan Titan truck, though he likes it, was a nightmare of replacing the transmission, rear differential, brakes, & powersteering. Thankfully that was all warranty.
Yes, but if the drawing is for a cheap part of Y material with a cycle of 5,000 uses it’s still going to be of much lower quality than one of Y x 3 material with a cycle of 50,000 uses.
What we see now is, say, the absurdly cheap power tools coming out of China. They’re designed for a life of assumed DIY use on a cycle of about 1,500 uses. The parts suppliers and makers trim every part along the way, so the tools can’t even make the short cycle in many cases. Quality, as distinct from production, control is minimal or non-existent in many cases. I judge this on the basis of the crap that is offered in the big box hardware stores, some of which I’ve bought. You won’t find this crap in the stores that sell to tradesmen, where I’ve also bought stuff, such as my 30 year old De Walt radial arm saw which is still going strong and will serve another few generations of home users.
Compare the hugely cheap crap tools and other things we’re getting out of China at the moment with the bounty of England or America at their industrial peaks and there’s no comparison with the quality of the tools. I still have 1970’s Skil tools from America that are clunky and primitive, but they’re still running, and will see my kids out if they want to use them. That’s more than I can say for smoother looking crap from China, made only a year or two ago.
The difference is, for example, that my old 1970’s Skil drill that I keep at the beach house still works fine and is accurate, while my cheap GMC cordless drill has either a bent shaft or badly cut chuck jaws, because the wander on a bit is woeful. You can see it, but I put a dial gauge on it and it’s even worse then.
Most DIYers won’t notice it, because they’re using crap to build crap, but the fact remains that most cheap tools are crap. Even if the tools are produced to clear specifications and drawings.
What they once were was motorbike motors in cars.
I’m old enough to remember Honda S 600 and S 800’s.
Cute, fast, but pulling stupid RPM by the standards of the day, because they were motorbike motors adapted to cars.
Yeah, that’s how the broke into the North American market. Honda developed a reputation for quality, efficiency, and ease of use with their bikes that they then translated over to the car market.
I think, off the top of my head, that they invented Variable Valve Timing which enabled their cars like the Civic to score very well in emissions tests as well to get great fuel economy while still allowing the owner to have a car that had no problem operating on the highway…
Well honestly i knew the Toyeta is better and easy to service repair.
But as far as i know the ALL Japs car do not need the serious repair for the first 10 years:)
Of course If you employ it carefully, i mean changing the filters and oil at time.
The serious repairs is not thing that you should make every year.
I just worry about car’s body- how long time this will save from corrosion?
Coz the repair of body is the really very expensive.
Yeah, I know. And this particular design stage is what I do for a living (on vacuum pumps for scientific instruments rather than power tools, but the principle holds).
What is happening with the tools in your rant is covered nicely by your bit at the end, where you say:
Which tells me that they are being produced to a design spot on to the requirement - the customer (which remember is the DIY stores, not people at home) want something as cheap as possible that they can sell for the maximum price in the maximum numbers. That means a “quality” feel to the exterior, minimum possible price, and a life of say 95% exceeding 5 years in use by home customers.
This in turn means that there is a very strong incentive for manufacturers to cut part costs, use cheaper parts (e.g. mild steel rather than tool steel) - as they will be penalised if they produce good quality tools.
It is possible to both improve quality and reduce cost, but you’ve got to apply a lot of brainpower to it and you frequently end up with a large number of patents. I’ve got one pending myself out of the current project which (in combination with a number of others - all are required for the saving to work) is worth maybe half a million quid a year in extra profit while improving the quality of the product.
I was recently overjoyed during a tool-buying expidition to a major “home improvement” chain outlet (Home Depot) and found that the majority of power tools (Dewalt, Milwaukee, Bosch) were still built in the US, Canada, or in Japan. I think some of the companies are getting the message that not only is there a significant dropoff in quality in Chinese made products, there’s also the nonexistent QC and safety regulations…