Can guilt be collective?

[Walther]

@Rising_Sun

Or perhaps being received by a generation or two which wasn’t even born when the war ended, and had little knowledge of it because it wasn’t discussed much by their parents, who went through the war?

You are right. In Germany it took until the late 1960s, when a new generation, which was not involved in Nazism, reached maturity, that questions were asked.

Jan

[Deaf_Smith]

@redcoat

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Amen.

Yes, guilt it can be collective. But guilt has a cure. It’s called forgiveness.

The war is over.

Deaf

[Ivaylo]

@Rising_Sun

This thread follows on from claims in another thread that all members of the Heer bore responsibility for Nazi war crimes because, first, they facilitated the conquest of territory to allow those crimes to occur by others such as deportation to the death camps and, second, the Heer committed its own war crimes.

I think that collective guilt is about as illogical as guilt by association.

I think also that there are degrees of moral and criminal responsibility, from nought to complete, determined by the alleged offender’s degree of involvement in whatever crime is alleged.

For example, the Heer in France were generally scrupulous in their behaviour as an occupying force. Why should a member of that force be tainted by something another soldier did in the East?

If one accepts that the occupying Heer in France generally behaved well (and much better than some of the rear area Americans after D Day), then it is illogical to say that “the Heer” were consistently guilty of war crimes because some of its members or units did so elsewhere.

The accurate statement would be that some German soldiers and units in the Heer were involved in war crimes, while others weren’t. The same could be said of every army, in varying degrees.

It’s not like, for example, that some Americans in the rear areas in Normandy in 1944 or Okinawa in 1945 weren’t engaged in numerous rapes of civilian women, never mind the countless routine murders by Americans of Japanese troops on Okinawa. Does that make all American soldiers war criminals?

If facilitating the Nazi thrust eastwards, with all its horrors, brands every member of the Heer as a war criminal, then why is not the same condemnation directed to Ford and General Motors, and especially the latter without which Hitler would not have made his first move east?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm

So, why isn’t the same responsibility for conquering parts East and all the horrors which occurred there sheeted home to the GM and Ford workers who made it possible?

After all, they contributed more to the Nazi conquest of the East lands than did the Heer, for without the GM and Ford workers it would not have been possible.

My point is that sweeping accusations of collective guilt rarely stand up to informed and fair analysis but, if one wants to apply that absolute standard, then it will usually catch rather more people than the ‘baddies’ supposedly solely responsible for the wrongful act and, in WWII, often display the hypocrisy of powerful men and interests on the Allied side.

As 23523652626 times i said there is no collective guilt in Army , otherwise what the ranks are for where is the commander responsibility ? There was only guild for the major persons , and those who were really found guilt . For that the last the Allies got the whole power to send all of the major characters of the Nazi rule to be shot or whatever but they didn’t send them all isn’t it ? And why you will have to ask them . As for the Heer , the regular frontline soldier whom just fought against his enemy no he is not guilt he was ordered to do something , and don’t tell me that if you go to war and your commander say " FIRE ! " you will say " Oh nooo I will not i hate war these are not partisans ! " no one will make that because you will be in the best case be sent to court matrial or camp or just simply shot .