Centurion Tank

World War II British Military
#21

[quote=“Cuts”]

The Danes binned their Cents maybe eighteen years back, and now use Leo 1A5 DK and Leo 2A4 (upgraded to 2A5.) The latter had a small tank battle in FRY during UNPROFOR, in fact I met one of the tankies from the unit involved when he was overseas and he gave me a good run down of the contact.

The remaining Swedish Cents are used for mobilisation only, the last crews being trained on that panzer in 2000.
Otherwise they have their Strv 121, (Leo 2A4,) and Strv 122 (Leo 2 improved) as MBTs.

The Swiss use the Pz87, (licence built Leo 2A5,) but have mounted a 140mm main armament.
I was fortunate enough to visit their MBT trg facility and they can now do the majority of their trg in simulators, a considerable saving on fuel, maintenance, etc.
They can ‘field’ a complete BG in the facility and a number of other countries, including the Germans and Swedes, send their crews to Thun for trg.[/quote]

Thanks for the updates Cuts.

I didn’t realize that the Danes retired their Centurions that long ago - oh well. Danish Centurions - Mk 3’s upgraded to Mk 5 and Mk 5/2 standard. Approx 110 Mk 3 upgraded to Mk 5 standard retaining 20 pdr gun (83.4 mm) and approx 105 other Mk 3 converted to Mk 5/2 standard with 105 mm L7A3 rifled gun firing APFSDS-T, smoke, HESH and APDS ammunition types, an Ericsson laser rangefinder sight and 12.7 mm MG.

Swedish Centurions - Strv 81 (Mk 3/Mk 5 delivered early - mid 1950’s), Strv 101 (approx 170 Mk 10 delivered 1960 upgunned with 105 mm L7 rifled guns and 8 mm MG’s, fitted with turret direction indicator, American radios and new auxiliary engine), Strv 102 (approx 270 Strv 81’s upgraded with over 110 minor changes made and fitting of 105 mm gun), Strv 104 (in the early 1980’s the Strv 101 and Strv102 started further modernization programs involving the fitting of an Ericsson gunner’s laser rangefinder sight, a Bofors integrated Tank Fire Control system, the 71 mm Lyran illuminating twin launcher system and an AVDS-1790-2DC 750 hp V-12 air-cooled diesel engine coupled to an Allison CD-850-6A automatic transmission.)

The Swiss Pz 87 (Swiss version of German Leopard 2) - first 35 built in Germany and delivered in 1987. The remaining were built under license in Switzerland (Swiss MG’s, radios, etc.).

That is interesting about the 140 mm gun installation on the Pz 87 and their MBT training facility.

The Germans certainly have had success in marketing their Leopard 1 and 2 MBT’s. Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Switzerland, Turkey (maybe more?).

Most of the above is from “Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles”, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, London, 1994, (pp 34-40, 126-128).

I would like to post more on the Centurion, but it is getting late. I have much information - including more on the “Olifant” - but it may take a few days to pull it all together.

Again, thanks for the information. :smiley:

#22

A really like the idea of the early Centurion in wich a fast firing canon is used as a secondary coaxial weapons, some times a AFV encounters targets wich could be destroyed by this means without the need of a heavy AP gun, like trucks, APCs, cars, motorcicles, etc.

#23

+1
Considering the limited supply of main gun ammunition a tank can carry, something similar to the Cent’s original armament makes sense - even more so in the kind of combat that is being experienced today.

#24

Exactly always seems to me ridicolous using a 88mm gun next to a 7,92 or 7.7mm Mg due the large balistic differences of those weapons, unfortunately this weapons layout has survive until our days in the MBT like the Abrams of Challenger. I would like see one of these with a coaxial 20-25mm gun.

Incidentally other tank wich use a large weapon as coaxil was the argentine Nahuel DL-43 (late 1943 design), in this the secondary gun was either a 20mm Madsen gun or a .50 caliber Browning.

#25

Looks like a caricature of a Sherman almost. :slight_smile:

#26

Depends what you want your coaxial armament for though …

If you want something useful for decimating advancing hordes of infantry, you might be better with a smaller calibre weapon such as an MMG, which has a high sustained rate of fire and for which you can carry plenty of ammo.

If you want to take on lighter vehicles, then a 20mm might be useful, but why not use the main armament?

A 20mm cannon such as POLSTEN or Oerlikon is drum or straight magazine fed, which means you’ll only get a shortish burst out before you have to reload. Under almost any circumstance, you’re just as knacked if you’re hit by a 7.62 round as a 20mm so why not use the lighter weapon?

The modern BMP 3 has a 100 mm main armament and a coaxial 30 mm, but those guns are designed for different things. The 100 mm fires HE and also serves as a launcher for the AT 10 STABBER missile, but with a fairly low MV (250 m/s). Although the missile can be used against slow-moving helicopters, the 30 mm is much better for this sort of thing.

The BMP 3 still then has a 7.62 mm coaxial MG for use against infantry.

#27

The use of Coax on British tank is for ranging. The Besa followed by the .5 were ballisticly matched to the main gun.

The firing procedure would be something like, estimate range then a 3 round burst, if over drop, if under add. Another burst followed by a big bang.

This method was still in use on the Chieftain till the introduction of lasers and still as a back up. Other countries used range finders but the Brit thought this was quicker.

The chieftain’s commander had a GPMG fitted to the cupola that could be aimed and fired from inside.

There is an incident in Korea (Royal Irish Hussars?) who shot Chinese troops off each other’s tanks as the carried out a fighting withdrawal.

I was told a joke a long time ago about IDF infantry carrying 2BL hammers. They would run up to enemy tanks and hit it 3 times on the side. The crew thinking that they have been spotted and ranged would bale out because they new that a 105 round was on the way.

#28

Looks like a caricature of a Sherman almost.

Actually the Nahuel was a very superior tank with a more heavy front armor, the canon was pretty much the same as the 75mm Sherman.

The use of Coax on British tank is for ranging. The Besa followed by the .5 were ballisticly matched to the main gun.

The firing procedure would be something like, estimate range then a 3 round burst, if over drop, if under add. Another burst followed by a big bang

Actually I have seen a video of the Centurion using the .50 caliber to aim, very simple idea, also in case to be needed the heavy MG can sweep the infantry at more range than the .30/7,92mm caliber.

#29

If you are engaging troops with a .5 at long range (1000+m) you are going to waste a lot of ammo. You will get a better beaten zone with a 7.62 or .30. it may sound good and look fine and is very good on light vehicles but for area the MMG is better. And any range over tracer burn out is wasting ammo.

#30

More on the Centurion Tank
Histories and Variants:


01-Centurion-Caiti-1978-01
Modern Armor: A Comprehensive Guide, Pierangelo Caiti, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978, p 92


02-Centurion-Caiti-1978-02
Modern Armor: A Comprehensive Guide, Pierangelo Caiti, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978, p 93


03-Centurion-Caiti-1978-03
Modern Armor: A Comprehensive Guide, Pierangelo Caiti, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978, p 94


04-Centurion-Caiti-1978-04
Modern Armor: A Comprehensive Guide, Pierangelo Caiti, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978, p 95


05-Centurion-Caiti-1978-05
Modern Armor: A Comprehensive Guide, Pierangelo Caiti, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978, p 96


06-Centurion-Caiti-1978-06
Modern Armor: A Comprehensive Guide, Pierangelo Caiti, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978, p 97


07-Centurion-MkIII-01
Tank Versus Tank, Kenneth Macksey, Salem House Publishers, 1988, pp164-165


08-Centurion-Janes-1976-01
Jane’s Pocket Book of Modern Tanks and Armored Fighting Vehicles, Christopher Foss, Macmillan Publishing, 1976, p 20


09-Centurion-Janes-1976-02
Jane’s Pocket Book of Modern Tanks and Armored Fighting Vehicles, Christopher Foss, Macmillan Publishing, 1976, p 21


10-Centurion-Foss-1977-01
Armoured Fighting Vehicles of the World, Christopher Foss, Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1977, p 63


11-Centurion-Foss-1977-02
Armoured Fighting Vehicles of the World, Christopher Foss, Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1977, p 64


12-Centurion-Foss-1977-03
Armoured Fighting Vehicles of the World, Christopher Foss, Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1977, p 65


13-Centurion-Foss-1977-04
Armoured Fighting Vehicles of the World, Christopher Foss, Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1977, p 66


14-Centurion-Janes-1987-01
Jane’s AFV Recognition Handbook, Christopher Foss, Jane’s Publishing Company Ltd, 1987, p 33


15-Centurion-Janes-1987-02
Jane’s AFV Recognition Handbook, Christopher Foss, Jane’s Publishing Company Ltd, 1987, p 34


16-Centurion-Janes-1987-03
Jane’s AFV Recognition Handbook, Christopher Foss, Jane’s Publishing Company Ltd, 1987, p 35


17-Centurion-Observers-1987-01
Tanks and Other Armoured Vehicles, Charles Messenger, Frederick Warne & Co., 1987, pp 106-107


18-Centurion-CCG-1988-01
Modern Fighting Vehicles, Bob Lewis, Longmeadow Press, 1988, pp 66-67


19-Centurion-Combat-Survival-1991-01
Combat and Survival, Volume 11, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 645


20-Centurion-Janes-1992-01
Jane’s AFV Recognition Handbook: Second Edition, Christopher Foss, Jane’s Information Group Ltd., 1992, p 36


21-Centurion-Janes-1992-02
Jane’s AFV Recognition Handbook: Second Edition, Christopher Foss, Jane’s Information Group Ltd., 1992, p 37


22-Centurion-Janes-1992-03
Jane’s AFV Recognition Handbook: Second Edition, Christopher Foss, Jane’s Information Group Ltd., 1992, p 38


23-Centurion-Greenhill-1994-01
Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, 1994, p 126


24-Centurion-Greenhill-1994-02
Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, 1994, p 127


25-Centurion-Greenhill-1994-03
Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, 1994, p 128


26-Centurion-Greenhill-1994-04
Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, 1994, p 129

South African Centurions - The Olifant:


Centurion-SA-01
Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, 1994, p 78


Centurion-SA-02
Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, 1994, p 79


Centurion-SA-03
South African War Machine, Helmoed-Romer Heitman, Presidio, 1985, p 123


Centurion-SA-04
South African War Machine, Helmoed-Romer Heitman, Presidio, 1985, p 128


Centurion-SA-05


Centurion-SA-06
South African War Machine, Helmoed-Romer Heitman, Presidio, 1985, p 44


Centurion-SA-07
Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 65


Centurion-SA-08
Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 66


Centurion-SA-09
Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 67


Centurion-SA-10
Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, pp 66-67


Centurion-SA-11
Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 68

Centurion AVRE:


Centurion-AVRE-001
Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, pp 1174-1175


Centurion-AVRE-01
Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 1174


Centurion-AVRE-02
Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 1175


Centurion-AVRE-03
Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 1176


Centurion-AVRE-04
Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 1177


Centurion-AVRE-04A
Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, pp1176-1177


Centurion-AVRE-05
Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 1178


Centurion-AVRE-06
Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 1179


Centurion-AVRE-07
Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 69


Centurion-AVRE-08
Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 70


Centurion-AVRE-09
Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 71


Centurion-AVRE-10
Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 72

I plan to add more information - next Israeli Variants of the Centurion - under a separate post. It may take about a week or more to pull everything together in my spare time.

#31

If you would like more Cent pictures then these two are very good for AVRE

http://tanxheaven.com/cent/fv4003avre165mm/11ba46/fv4003avre11ba46.htm

http://www.armouredengineers.co.uk/photose.htm

And in the last link at the end in happy snaps there is a nice pic of some sappers cooking on the engine decks.

#32

Very nice as usual George…I really like this pic :twisted:

#33

Thanks Panzerknacker. :smiley:

I would have liked to seen the “before and after” they took care of business. :lol:

Nice pics “2nd of foot”. Great interior shots too. Thanks for the links. :smiley:

A few from the many that I would like to post:

From Tanxheaven site:
http://tanxheaven.com/cent/fv4003avre165mm/11ba46/fv4003avre11ba46.htm

Centurion AVRE 165mm with fascine bundle on cradle

From Royal Engineers Association site:
http://www.armouredengineers.co.uk/photose.htm

Centurion AVRE 165mm:

On tank transporter

In the Middle East

With fascine bundle on cradle

After emptying fascine cradle and depositing fascines

Using dozer blade

Undergoing maintenance

Centurion Bridgelayer

Happy Snaps - Cooking

#34

I will have to correct myself on the previous post. I think that these are actually Centurion AVRE 165mm with Class 60 roadway (trackway mat) on cradle.

#35

aaah yes, the Aussie 20-pder Centurions.

I was behind one when we were doing - ‘coop’n with armour’ - on a firing range

I was ‘on the phone’, my skipper was a bit further back with P’n hq, we were moving, simulators going off everywhere around and I faintly heard ‘action armour front’ or something like that,

and the turrte traversed crew fired off a HESH round, and the blast was pretty serious. and the dust. Which, once settled …

they fired an APDS round! … @ > twice the MV ~5000fps

Faarrrrrrkkkkk! I was all but knocked over!

SEVERAL times louder than when firing a KarlGustav, I can tell you.

#36

Following on from Timbo’s tale, let me tell a tale of the CENTURION then, involving a senior instructor of gunnery (IG) at the Royal School of Artillery (now retired) who we shall call Big Vern in the interests on anonymity …

This was recounted to me by his driver of the time, who ended up as my MT Sgt some years later.

Back when Big Vern was a fairly junior FOO in the 1970s, the Royal Artillery was still using CENTURION as an OP vehicle so the FOO party could keep up with armoured units using CHIEFTAN tanks.

Unlike the WARRIOR OP vehicles used nowadays, the CENTURION still had it’s main armament intact. A point to note for what follows.

Out on the ranges in Germany one day, with Big Vern’s Field Gun Battery on a live firing artillery excercise, an IG jumped up onto the back of Big Vern’s tank and told him to shell the farmouse, middle left at 2,000 m or some such.

Quick as a flash, Big Vern shouted “gunner, traverse left, farmouse, 2,000m, HESH, fire!” (or whatever the correct sequence is …)

As the IG picked himself up, slightly deafened. from the engine deck, where he’d been flung by the muzzle blast, he belaboured Big Vern about the helmet with his clipboard, shouting “I meant with your Battery, you c**t!”.

#37

Sorry for being slightly off topic, but I noticed this article at the Strategy Page website. Australia appears to be buying American M-1A1 tanks to replace some of their German Leopards. I believe the Leopards had previously replaced the Centurion.

The Australian Centurions did well during the Vietnam Conflict from what I’ve read.

Abrams in Oz
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htarm/articles/20060427.aspx

April 27, 2006: Australia has purchased 59 refurbished American M-1 tanks for $8 million each (including lots of ancillary equipment and spares). The M-1A1 tanks will replace German Leopards, which are nearing the end of their useful life. The 59 tanks are enough for one tank battalion which, with the addition of two mechanized infantry battalions and some support units, would produce one mechanized brigade. This would be the largest unit Australia would be expected to send overseas. Australia, due to its size and location, does not anticipate being invaded by a hostile armored force. So the M-1s would be mainly for any overseas operations.

There are other reasons for getting M-1s. First, there is reputation. For fifteen years, the M-1 has demonstrated clear battlefield superiority. There is nothing on the horizon that can match it. Then there is the compatibility angle. Australia and the United States are close allies. If Australia gets into an overseas scrape, it will probably be as an American ally. Thus Australian M-1s would have an easier time getting supplies and spares. Another angle is that Australia might not even have to send its M-1s overseas. If the Australian mechanized brigade was relieving an American brigade, the Australians could, as American units currently do, just send the crews to man the tanks of the troops returning home.

The 59 Australian M-1s are expected to serve about twenty years.

#38

Yes. Australia has already ordered thier 59 M1A1 Abrams. I saw one a couple of weeks ago. Some Leopards will stay in force.

Centurion tanks were used in WWII especially in the final months although they were over shadowed by the Grant, Sherman and the Panther, Tiger and others.

#39

I always thought they came in far too late to be involved in action, I’d be interested to hear any stories about their contacts with the Tigers and Panthers.

#40

According to what I’ve read, the first six produced were delivered in May 1945 and rushed to Germany for testing in combat conditions with the 22nd Armoured Brigade, but hostilities had ceased by the time they arrived.
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