Churchill versus the rest - Best or worst WWII leader?

Yes, but was the resault much different in 1941 for Britain?:wink:

The Soviets held some Japanese forces, but the Chinese Nationalists did far more so…

They did but not far more. The chinese fought very limited , episodic and humble partisan warfare in Manchukuo, it can’t seriously harm to japanese army ( but japanese got an ideal pretext for ethnic cleansing and war crimes against chineses civil population there). Thus, most of Kwantung army was held in necessary reserve within all the war - although they were overstrenghted for local warfare - the pure strategical aims didn’t let them to be used on the pacific front.

That’s a completely unfair assertion. Britain was fighting the Germans on many fronts from the air war over Europe to the Middle East. Their war was a lot less phony than the Soviet one up until 1941…

They did but not far more. The chinese fought very limited , episodic and humble partisan warfare in Manchukuo, it can’t seriously harm to japanese army ( but japanese got an ideal pretext for ethnic cleansing and war crimes against chineses civil population there). Thus, most of Kwantung army was held in necessary reserve within all the war - although they were overstrenghted for local warfare - the pure strategical aims didn’t let them to be used on the pacific front.

The Chinese Nationalist gov’t was in complete and total war with the Japanese taking epic casualties everywhere, I’m talking the Imperial Japanese Army in general. The Kwantung Army was routinely used for rest and refit of combat units in China. Also, they were stripped and routinely reduced at the conflict evolved and lost nearly 50% of their manpower throughout the war…

Yeah, sure from the air war over the ONLY Birtain and against the only italians on the Middle East;) Name it right. Untill the mid 1941 Britain had no serious combat fight with Heer. Even during the “battle of Britain” Luftwaffe losed less planes then within ONE first month of Barbarossa. Or i’m wrong?

Their war was a lot less phony than the Soviet one up until 1941…

Nope Soviet didn’t weage a phony war with Germany that period. We were busy by suppliyng the Nazis with oil and gain. Just like US supplued the Imperial Japanese army in war against CHina that time;)

The Chinese Nationalist gov’t was in complete and total war with the Japanese taking epic casualties everywhere,

Really? and how much japanese divisions have been destroyed by the chinese nationalist ? They have no even food enough not just ammos and weapon.

I’m talking the Imperial Japanese Army in general. The Kwantung Army was routinely used for rest and refit of combat units in China. Also, they were stripped and routinely reduced at the conflict evolved and lost nearly 50% of their manpower throughout the war…

Yes , but even so it was a biggest single army of about 700 000 !! I’ve asked previously how much japanese were needed to conquer the entire Malay and Singapoor? and how much were needed to conquer the entire Phillipines? That’s might be an interesting comparition

How do you think they got the Heer there? :slight_smile:

Untill the mid 1941 Britain had no serious combat fight with Heer. Even during the “battle of Britain” Luftwaffe losed less planes then within ONE first month of Barbarossa. Or i’m wrong?

They also barely had an army. They had a small volunteer force that was seriously under-equipped prior to the Battle for France. They didn’t have a lot of options. I’m not sure about the aircraft numbers actually…

Nope Soviet didn’t weage a phony war with Germany that period. We were busy by suppliyng the Nazis with oil and gain. Just like US supplued the Imperial Japanese army in war against CHina that time;)

The U.S. began an embargo based on Japanese actions in China that led to Pearl Harbor…

Really? and how much japanese divisions have been destroyed by the chinese nationalist ? They have no even food enough not just ammos and weapon.

IDK the number of divisions. But they (the IJA) lost between 500,000 to over 1,000,000 men. The first est. is from Japanese sources and the second one was a PRC study…

Yes , but even so it was a biggest single army of about 700 000 !! I’ve asked previously how much japanese were needed to conquer the entire Malay and Singapoor? and how much were needed to conquer the entire Phillipines? That’s might be an interesting comparition

It is an interesting comparison. But remember those defeated armies were blockaded and lacked much in the way of support. There were only about 15,000 American soldiers and marines in the Philippines at the time with the rest being Filipino under American command…

Shameful flight from Dunkirk? It was a brilliant strategic move, saving your troops to fight another day. A much better plan than keeping them there to either be killed or captured. Those troops formed the nucleus of future divisions, plus the with the invasion of Britain being a real possibility they would have been very helpful to defend the homeland - now that would have been the time for them to fight to the death.

Yes, after the Battle of Britain ended whatever faint hope there was for Sea Lion to land troops in Britain, let alone defeat Britain, and British Commowealth forces in North Africa engaged Germany there while the Royal Navy stopped the Kriegsmarine controlling the oceans.

Japan had 51 IJN divisions in China / Manchuria in the lead up to the Pacific War in December 1941. The IJN could spare only 11 divisions for the southern thrust. So, the Chinese held 40 Japanese divisions in China / Manchuria, which is more than the Soviets did by themselves on the Manchurian border. You can’t dismiss the Chinese contribution while extolling the Soviet contribution in holding Japanese troops away from other theatres. Moreover, the Chinese were fighting the Japanese divisions they were holding, while the Soviets weren’t.

IIRC about five or six IJN divisions were returned from the Pacific to China in 1942 or early 1943 to deal with the continuing conflict there.

So Operation Compass December 1940 - February 1941 in which Britain destroyed the Italian Tenth Army which had a numerical advantage over Britain of about 5:1 and where Britain took upwards of 120,000 Italian prisoners with many deaths and injuries on both sides, while nobody else was fighting Italy or Germany, doesn’t count?

The people who fought, were wounded and died in that conflict would be offended that their efforts and sacrifices don’t matter.

Barbarossa is irrelevant to the fact that only the British Commonwealth was fighting Germany, and Italy, up to mid-1941 when Barbarossa was launched (after the British Commonwealth had been fighting the Germans in North Africa, Greece and Crete). The USSR to that point had been happily carving up eastern Europe in deals with the Nazis, which gave the Soviets new territories without having to fight for them, never mind defending their homeland as the British had been since the outbreak of war and losing tens of thousands of civilians in Britain during that time.

I’m not ignoring the vastly greater military and civilian losses under far, far worse conditions endured in the USSR after Barbarossa, but they are irrelevant the fact that only Britain and its Commonwealth fought the existing Axis (Germany and Italy) alone to mid-1941. And if Britain hadn’t done that, and stopped Hitler executing his main aim of going eastwards until mid-1941, then the Soviets probably would have faced an earlier invasion with poorer prospects of defending the USSR successfully, or at least doing so at far greater cost than the awful, awful cost the Soviets endured after Barbarossa.

British Commonwealth:Japan troops in Malaya were roughly 2:1.

Factor in that British Commonwealth troops were in large numbers only base troops in their bases; were fragmented; were not always even adequately trained or led; lacked battle hardening of many opposing Japanese units; lacked mobility due to need to defend widely separated airfields; and had virtually no air cover or armour against Japan’s great superiority in both areas, and the numerical superiority on paper of British Commonwealth troops becomes meaningless.

The Japanese were better trained, better led, better planners, quicker to exploit battlefield advantages as they occurred, generally much better in battle tactics at all levels, better morale, more cohesive, and overall very much better than their British Commonwealth opponents. Add in Japan’s great air and armour advantages and Japan was bound to win.

Given those factors favouring Japan, you can’t disparage the British Commonwealth forces for losing to Japan in Malaya while disparaging the British Commonwealth forces who performed at least as well as the Japanese when the British Commonwealth forces defeated the numerically much superior Italian forces in North Africa.

Give credit where it is due, to the Japanese in Malaya (and everywhere else on land south of Vietnam up to January 1943) and to the British Commonwealth forces in North Africa up to mid-1941.

Actualy Italy doesn’t count. Common, the itlians were absolut loosers in that war - they have losed each battle they took part in. So the italians don’t count. Coz after Rommel has arrived in Africa- brits lost all territories they got from italians.

The people who fought, were wounded and died in that conflict would be offended that their efforts and sacrifices don’t matter.

The people who fought and died in operation compass - died in vain. Coz their sacrificies did not bring military profit. So what for they died?For italian pows?

Barbarossa is irrelevant to the fact that only the British Commonwealth was fighting Germany, and Italy, up to mid-1941 when Barbarossa was launched (after the British Commonwealth had been fighting the Germans in North Africa, Greece and Crete). The USSR to that point had been happily carving up eastern Europe in deals with the Nazis, which gave the Soviets new territories without having to fight for them, never mind defending their homeland as the British had been since the outbreak of war and losing tens of thousands of civilians in Britain during that time.

You did not fight alone.The chinas fought JPA desperatively and years before you. Besides the Red Army also fought the potential nazis ally finland for territories that time,and that was a war with serous efforts and casualties ( in persentage) for both sides. And unlike Britain, which losed to Germany in all the fonts that time- we have partly succesed.

I’m not ignoring the vastly greater military and civilian losses under far, far worse conditions endured in the USSR after Barbarossa, but they are irrelevant the fact that only Britain and its Commonwealth fought the existing Axis (Germany and Italy) alone to mid-1941. And if Britain hadn’t done that, and stopped Hitler executing his main aim of going eastwards until mid-1941, then the Soviets probably would have faced an earlier invasion with poorer prospects of defending the USSR successfully, or at least doing so at far greater cost than the awful, awful cost the Soviets endured after Barbarossa.

Hmm thats looks very controversal IMO. Coz in fact the Britain didn’t just fight - they losed and got the Wermach a brillian “military training” compain with brits and france in 1940, thus to the mid-1941 it has been transformed to the undefeatable mashine, the best landing ( and air) army in the world that leaved no chanches to Red Army. I’m pretty sure if the war with Germany happend in 1939 - germans never moved into mainland so deep. Coz in 1939 the German army were just much like a parody at real army - but britain and france by their military incompetence ( and covardice) have finally made the Nazis such a strong.

Factor in that British Commonwealth troops were in large numbers only base troops in their bases; were fragmented; were not always even adequately trained or led; lacked battle hardening of many opposing Japanese units; lacked mobility due to need to defend widely separated airfields; and had virtually no air cover or armour against Japan’s great superiority in both areas, and the numerical superiority on paper of British Commonwealth troops becomes meaningless.

The Japanese were better trained, better led, better planners, quicker to exploit battlefield advantages as they occurred, generally much better in battle tactics at all levels, better morale, more cohesive, and overall very much better than their British Commonwealth opponents. Add in Japan’s great air and armour advantages and Japan was bound to win.

And what prevented the brits to get an “adequate training or beeing defragmated”? The Stalin’s purges among officers corp or fragile balls of top command?:wink:

Given those factors favouring Japan, you can’t disparage the British Commonwealth forces for losing to Japan in Malaya while disparaging the British Commonwealth forces who performed at least as well as the Japanese when the British Commonwealth forces defeated the numerically much superior Italian forces in North Africa.

Oh again that italians as justification…I/m sure if the , dr Goebbel’s invented untermenshen army really existed, he shoul rather look not to the east but at the their allies italians :wink:

And note, that only 11 divisions were enough to made that mess for the allies on the South;) While Red Army forced Japane command to hold in “reserve” the 15-16 divisions in Manchuria. The Manchuria was not like a rest of China and the chinese resistence there were almost totally non-existed. The ONLY reason why so much japanes troop been there- the 35 soviet division behind the soviet-mongolian line. Yes sure chinese desperatively fought the rest 25 japanese and stop their advance by their blood , with no hope to win - but that was much more then faced allies on the pacific.

Nick, the oil-trade embargo has been declared in mid 1941. The chines-japanese war has been started since 1937.Japanes have commited all those genocide in Nankin and ets , having american gasoline fueled.All that time the Washington sold pretty lot of oil to the japanese agressors. You also pretty well supplied the Japane with steel, mashinery and strategical military resources till the mid 1940. That’s of cource doesn’t deny the fact of american military help to Gomindan. But though…

IDK the number of divisions. But they (the IJA) lost between 500,000 to over 1,000,000 men. The first est. is from Japanese sources and the second one was a PRC study…

the 0.5-1 million was aprox the total KIA within the all the japanese-chinese war ( 1937-45) and over all the China. The chinese resistence in namely Mancguria was tiny , compared to the rest of China.

It is an interesting comparison. But remember those defeated armies were blockaded and lacked much in the way of support. There were only about 15,000 American soldiers and marines in the Philippines at the time with the rest being Filipino under American command…

yes sure ,those armies were doomed for an external reasons. But my point wasn’t that. The 120 000 of japanese was an enourmous military force to the Pacific standards. What migh happend if they got chance to reliaze the Kwantung reserve - only god know. So in fact the Soviet contribution to the Pacific compain was wery essential. Just like the about 1 million of Red Army troop that we have to keep out of war with Germany in critical period of barbarossa.