Conspiracy theories concerning Ju390/290

World War II German Military
#21

The Ju390 definatly never made it to New York (and didn’t try) since the prototype (a modified Ju 90 V6) that made the alleged flight was still missing critical structural reinforcements which limited the take of weight to 38 tons (needed 72). If the program had made it into production however the plane would have had the capability for such a flight.

I am curious what is meant by the claim that the prototype was “missing?”:roll:

It was noted in Pancherz’s diary and quoted in the 1969 Daily Telegraph article “Lone Bomber Raid on New York Planned by Hitler.” In that article Pancherz noted he flew ‘‘one of the Ju-390 transports’’ on a test flight to Cape Town and back in early 1944.

Given that nobody disputes Pancherz made the 11,400 nautical mile round trip to Cape Town, what grounds have doubters of the New York flight got to dispute the ability of a Ju-390 to make a simple 6,230 nautical mile flight to New York and back ?

#22

Drake said

The Ju390 definatly never made it to New York (and didn’t try) since the prototype (a modified Ju 90 V6) that made the alleged flight was still missing critical structural reinforcements which limited the take of weight to 38 tons (needed 72). If the program had made it into production however the plane would have had the capability for such a flight.

The Ju 90 V6 was limited in take off weight (MTOW) by the fact it was underpowered. Not by structural weakness.

The Ju-90 airframe was essentially similar to the Ju-290 airframe, but the aircraft was underpowered with four 660 horsepower BMW132.

The Ju-290 adopted a BMW801 supercharged engine which essentially tripled the take off power. That is the real issue why the Ju-90 was limited in weight. It was not a structural issue.

The Ju-390 V1 was in fact certified for a take off weight of 75,500kg.

To put this in some perspective I used to fly in Carvairs with MTOW of 73,000kg. The Carvair was derived from the DC-4 with an MTOW of 70,000kg. The B-29 bomber had an MTOW of 76,600kg.

The Ju-390 had 18% more horsepower than a B-29 and 80% more wing area meaning it had greater lift and greater ability to carry fuel or payload than the B-29.

In May 1944 Junkers trimmed 5 tonnes from the Ju-390’s empty weight and re-certified it for take off at 80,500 kg with a payload of 8 metric tonnes over 11,000 km.

At altitudes up to 12,000 feet and cruise power settings of about 1900 rpm the aircraft’s BMW801D engines certainly had the fuel consumption for 32 hours endurance.

Above 21,000 ft the supercharger dramatically increased fuel consumption. The BMW801E engine was introduced with changes to the supercharger gearing to favour high altitude fuel consumption with an extra 100hp.

#23

I need to write these things down…

A few weeks ago I ran across a slim book evaluating the various Axis efforts to attck the US. Cant recall thr title. The author evaluated the original German and Italian records and found the popular claims unsupported by anything preserved. There were many projects proposed & very few made it past the paper stage of planning and none were actually launched. The authors evaluations included a look at the engineering challenges and the logisitcs of each effort, or rather the lack of logistics planning for many.

Suprisingly two Italian efforts came the closest to being executed. One involved a large submarine transporting a small mini sub to a US harbor for attacking inside the harbor. The other proposed a submarine be stationed in the mid Atlantic to refuel a Italian seaplane bomber. Both projects had the equipment identified for use and personnel assigned. Both were delayedby techinal problems and delays in obtaining specialized equipment. The italian surrender ended both projects. In the latter project the problem of navigation for the redevous of the aircraft with the submarine in mid Atlantic was not resolved.

The author traced many of the beliefs about the super bombers attacking the US back to British interrogations of low ranking prisoners. Several of these captured pilots and other aircrew seem to have been repeating distorted versions of Gobbels propaganda news releases.

Not mentioned in his book is the recent circulation of fraudulent or forged historical material made up for the use of moveing money from the pocket of the gulible to that of the conartist. I’ve been solicited myself for this sort of thing and the subject of the items was the German super bombers.

#24

And who is that in the green coat with the hat?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

#25

Maybe replace “missing” with “lacking” and the content of my statement might make more sense to you. The flying JU 390 prototype was an actual 90V6 with parts inserted into the fuselage and wing area to increase the size. So the capabilities of a common 90V6 or the potential capabilities of a production type 390V1 are useless figures. This prototype didn’t have the structural integrity to start with more than 38 tonnes of weight.

#26

what was the cruising speed and the top speed of the 390? loaded and unloaded?

#27

Suprisingly two Italian efforts came the closest to being executed. One involved a large submarine transporting a small mini sub to a US harbor for attacking inside the harbor. The other proposed a submarine be stationed in the mid Atlantic to refuel a Italian seaplane bomber. Both projects had the equipment identified for use and personnel assigned. Both were delayedby techinal problems and delays in obtaining specialized equipment. The italian surrender ended both projects. In the latter project the problem of navigation for the redevous of the aircraft with the submarine in mid Atlantic was not resolved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decima_Flottiglia_MAS

Carl there is no secret about the Italian effort by Decima Mas to send a floatplane to New York’s harbour. The planned raid consisted of two aircraft each carrying four Siluro a Lenta Corsa human torpedoes (nicknamed “Maiale”) to attack port facilities and ships. The crews were 16 special naval volunteers, who would be permitted to surrender after their mission.

Both Cant Z511 aircraft were damaged by British fighters when the CANT’s base in Lake Trasimeno was strafed. The arrest of Mussolini in July 1943 and the subsequent signing of the Italian Armistice by Marshal Pietro Badoglio meant that the New York raid, and all other plans, were cancelled".

There were also plans for Miale mini subs to be piggy backed on an Italian submarine from Betacom at the Gironde estury near Bordeaux.

Before the attack was able to resume Italy had capitulated.

Go look up the Aquila boats based at Gironde near Bordeaux. The Italians were world leaders at the time in underwater chariot attacks.

There’s no conspiracy. It’s a well known fact at least that is to anybody who has really made any effort to study WW2.

Adrian cheap shot about the man in a trench coat. Pity you can’t debate the issues with any useful views.

#28

Dear Drake,

Sorry but you’re wrong old chap. The weakness of the early Ju-90 aircraft was not in the strength of it’s structure but in respect of two factors…First they were totally underpowered and second they had small wing areas.

Point of fact, when Junkers developed the Ju-90 from the Ju-89 there were plans to develop the Ju-89V3 as a cargo aircraft, but it was decided to redesign the Ju-89 for this role by creating an entirely new fuselage suitable for the cargo role. Hence the Ju-90.

The Ju-90 V8 was actually built to be a heavy bomber version of the Ju-90 and became the standard structure for succeeding Ju-290 designs. 17 Ju-90 were built before production switched to the Ju-290 with BMW801C engines (later BMW801D engines).

In 1939 RLM asked for a military transport development of the Ju-90. From the outset the Ju-90 V5 and V6 were built to military transport specifications. Ju-90V6 was the first to receive a tail ramp door.

Ju-90 V5 and V6 also both received the same wing shape and structure adopted for the Ju-290 albeit with 7 metres less wingspan. The Ju-90 V6’s relative small wing span from a pilot’s perspective limited take-off weights, because it increased wing loading and stall speeds. The more wing area you have the greater the weight you can lift.

It had nothing whatsoever to do with structural weakness.
The Ju-89 had a wing area of 184 sq metres. This was the same wing employed by J-90 V1-V4. The wing shape changed with the Ju-90 V5-V7, but the overall area did not. Trials with the Ju-90 V7 showed up a need for a greater wingspan. From the Ju-90 V8 onwards the wing area was increased to 203 sq metres.

When the Ju-390 V1 was developed from Ju-90 V6 at Dessau, the aircraft received a massive new wing with much increased wing area

Perhaps you could explain if they were such weak aircraft why four Ju-90 aircraft (registered D-ADLH, D-ABDG, D-ADFJ and D-AURE ) were used as freighters flying metal ores from U-boat bases in France where U-boats landed vital ores from Japan to German refineries at Degussa, Dürener Metalwerke, Boehler and Osram ?

If structurally so weak then please explain photos of the Ju-90 V7 with a Trappolape freight door loading armoured vehicles ?

This aircraft had identical structure and wings to the V6.

#29

SS Ouche-Vittes,

I have never personally found a source of accurate data on the aircraft’s speeds. My hunch is however that NACA did perform tests on one Ju-290 (“Alles Kaput”) at Wright Patterson airbase after the war and the speeds for that aircraft would not be unsimilar. The Spanish operated a Ju-290 after the war and some Spanish sources may help too.

The quoted figures for the Ju390 are an endurance of 32 hours and a range of 8,710 nautical miles which gives you 272 knots. Ironically this speed is often quoted as the maximum speed.

Given the fuel consumption chart I appended earlier I expect this speed would be at the apex of the consumption lines, for optimum fuel consumption and rpm.

If the figure of 272 knots is the optimum cruise speed then it may have had a stunningly high max speed around 305 knots !

To give some modern examples the Saab 340 airliner has a max cruise speed of 274 knots whilst the optimum long range cruise speed is 225 knots. A Fokker F.27 friendship; max speed 259 knots, long range 232 knots.

The Ju-390 was re-certified in May 1944 with an MTOW of 80,500kg which tends to indicate tremendous performance reserves.

#30

SS Ouche-Vittes,

The book “Target Amerika” by James P Duffy at page 56 claims the Ju-390’s top speed was 314 “miles per hour” (272 knots) and the cruising speed was 222 “miles per hour” (193 knots) and that makes a lot more sense.

#31

now we have someon who knows what he is talking about…

#32

I wasn’t talking about the weaknesses of the regular JU-90 or what would be the later production type 390. I was talking about the weakness of the single modified plane that was the flying prototype of the 390. This plane was cut to pieces with additional parts inserted (wings, fuselage) to increase the size, like they build custom built stretch limos today.

#33

Have never heard of the plane reaching Cape Town before?

#34

I wasn’t talking about the weaknesses of the regular JU-90 or what would be the later production type 390. I was talking about the weakness of the single modified plane that was the flying prototype of the 390. This plane was cut to pieces with additional parts inserted (wings, fuselage) to increase the size, like they build custom built stretch limos today.

It was not a single Ju-390. You clearly have a closed mind on the subject Drake, however for the benefit of others:

#35

HG the flight is not widely documented but if you can, read:

Target America: Hitler’s Plan to Attack the United States, Duffy, James P., Greenwood Publishing Group, 114, 2004, 0275966844, which reproduces pages from Pancherz’s logbook/diary. Pages 114 onwards…

http://www.getwiki.net/-Junkers_Ju_390

Major Walter Schmidt clearly if you knew anything worth quoting you would join the conversation. I prefaced my comments about the Ju-390’s speeds by stating:

I have never personally found a source of accurate data on the aircraft’s speeds.

To anybody with normal comprehension of the English language this equates saying I am not sure and don’t have accurate information on that.

If you’re having trouble comprehending English you may wish to participate in a forum speaking your native tongue.

#36

For someone of the English language I would like to say that you sir are a real @rshole and if you were maybe lightly smart enough you would have dealt with it in a another way.

Now, If you might know why do I say it is bull? South Africa was under the rule of the UK and if the Germans Came near the southern part of Africa they would have had a lot of sh*t. Now we are talking about a aircraft so they would have been intercepted for sure.

#37

Well whether it would have been intercepted or even detected, would depend on such factors as exactly where it would have been flown i.e. the route, how high it was flown i.e. the altitude, prevailing weather condtions and time of day with regard to visibility issues, what radar and optical observation assets would have been directly under the route or if not directly under the route within their range constraints of the route and the same for interceptor aircraft. N.B. I am not claiming that the aircraft was flown to Southern Africa, I don’t know enough about this claim to have a firm opinion either for or against, I am just querying the idea that it would have been both spotted and intercepted if it had.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

#38

I understand what you mean mate, but I think it would have been spotted somehow on such a trip.

#39

Fool, your RC+DA picture is a well known fake.

#40

KG 200 flew a JU290 to Mosul in Iraq without problem. This was an 1850 mile trip.As it was Nov 1944 much of it over neutral or enemy territory, they cruised at 9800 feet and were not detected. After dropping parachutists and supplies they flew back to Rhodes and landed there where another 290 had delivered fuel. They flew at 124 mph until reaching altitude and then cruised at 186 mph. They flew from Vienna at 16:30 and arrived at Rhodes at 05:10 the next day. I know the 290 is a different animal but I can’t see the 390 being much quicker, the longest trip the 290 seems to do is about 12 hrs at 180-200 miles an hour which comes up well short of transatlantic, is the 390 any better ?