The Germans were really incredibly stupid to have attacked the Russians at all. Call it hubris - Goebbels said, “All you have to do is kick the door in and the whole building will collapse”, but a simple geometry lesson and a comparison of populations should have been instructive. Oh, that and Napoleon, who at least captured Moscow, something which even Hitler couldn’t do. The aftermath for Napoleon should have taught the Nazis a thing or three but it did not. That’s what happens when you’ve got a maniacal fool for a leader and people follow him like sheep.
Would the UK et al have survived without Russia being drawn in?
The Americans were certainly dilly dallying about, without the Russian offensive, the whole of the German war machine would have been arrayed against Britian.
True. But many of the German generals doing the actual planning and conducting of the invasion were far more realistic. Many, especially those in command of Army Group Centre, especially feared the specter of a hollow “Napoleonic” experience in which they took a scorched earth Moscow and yet faced the bulk of the undefeated Red Army gathering to the east, with no further opportunity left to ‘envelope’ them…
The Americans were fighting German U-boats, as well as raising, equipping, and training a conscript army by 1940-41, and were facing the ever increasing inevitable clash with the Imperial Japanese in the South Pacific…
Funny in this topic how you forgot to mention Canada anyways i don’t think we could have Germany lost most of their and men tanks there and without the backing of the Soviets attacking Russia was one of many mistakes Hitler made without Hitler’s stupidity they would have won same with the Japanese
Shane, it is not meant as a slant against Canada or anyother nation who fought, but is not mentioned
Commonwealth troops are by default, mentioned alongside Britain.
God, this thread is like asking.‘how long is a piece of string?’
I’ll throw a bit of a curve ball here. German victory occurs in October 1941 after the OKW launches a high speed assault on Moscow, having ignored the bottled up troops around Kiev. After the fall of Moscow Stalin and his Politbuo and High Command are executed and Nazi Germany begins the absorption process of the Soviet Union. One hundred German divisions return to the west and begin preparations for the conquest of the Middle East and the invasion of Malta.
Britain stands alone, though the Atlantic convoys are the main source of fuel, foodstuffs, ammunition and weapons the American government is becoming increasingly isolationist.
Japan’s blitzkrieg in the Pacific seals Britain’s fate. All of America’s attention is diverted to the Pacific and the new isolationist government caves into German pressure and at the end of January 1942 convoys to Britain are terminated…and there never is Operation Overlord.
In the realms of ‘What If’s’. this was entirely possible.
Regards digger.
Or, as it should have done as a true ally and as substantial uncaptured French land forces did outside France, the uncaptured French navy comes across to Britain when France surrenders. Like the Dutch did with theirs from the NEI.
Britain and the Free French navy now have more than enough naval forces to do what Britain was already managing in the Atlantic with American assistance and alone in the Mediterranean (and without the British worrying about the French navy coming out on the German side). But, more importantly, the French naval forces can be deployed to Singapore and French Indo-China to block the Japanese advances and to check Japanese ambitions.
Regardless of whether Vichy France allows Japan into French Indo-China, the Free French navy can stop Japan exploiting its land occupation of Vietnam for the assault on Malaya.
Japan never gets out of the blocks in Malaya, which it needs to anchor its assaults on the Philippines and NEI. So there is no point to Pearl Harbor.
A bit more spine from the dominant French leaders, as distinct from the French people who never lacked spine, could have changed the war by not creating the conditions through lack of spine that allowed British and American forces to be diverted to the Pacific.
I accept that it’s a bit unfair to say ‘lack of spine’ when the French leadership was up against the wall, but it’s also the case that Petain and Co were a bunch of closet fascists in their own way who weren’t entirely unsympathetic to Hitler. And the Axis mentality.
Lots of stings disappearing into infinity on this thread.;):shock::roll:
Regards digger
The whole landing was possible because of the war on the eastern front. The Americans and British would not have even tried if not for that. Compair it to a snow balls chance in hell.
Germany is being badly overrated. The US alone vastly outproduced them. The reich is outclassed even without the Soviets.