Actually, the figure of 60,000 British civilians killed by German attacks comes to mind, but I could be wrong.
In any case, any deaths are too many in war…
I repeat British civilian deaths have nothing to do with errors published by historians. If you want to pursue your agenda of revisionist history about the big bad RAF and 8th AF bombing the crap out of a nation that not only pursued a war of aggression, expansion, genocide, then start a new thread.
Oh, and please remember comrade Stalin continually called on the western Allies to bomb Germany in an effort to ease the pressure off the Soviet Union.
Regards Digger;)
Redcoat:
If you hit someone with a bat, you can’t really complain if he hits you back with a bigger one
What if Nickdfresh hits you with a bat? Can I complain about it?
.
Nickdfresh:
In any case, any deaths are too many in war…
Now we are getting somewhere… But we, “communists” want to hear more self criticism. Please elaborate on it. We want to hear how much you sorry for what happened. Make it vivid! 
Digger:
I repeat British civilian deaths have nothing to do with errors published by historians. If you want to pursue your agenda of revisionist history about the big bad RAF and 8th AF bombing the crap out of a nation that not only pursued a war of aggression, expansion, genocide, then start a new thread.
What kind of revisionism have you found in comparing the numbers for Dresden that you gave us with official numbers ob civilian UK casualties in WW2?
Oh, and please remember comrade Stalin continually called on the western Allies to bomb Germany in an effort to ease the pressure off the Soviet Union.
That is right. Stalin even experessed hope that US would find good use for A-bombs in the war against Japan. But he was a bad guy, right? We all know that. No one in this forum denies it. Where and when he was bad is up to debate, though.
And allies were all good as we know (also from this forum). Kind of like fluffy bunnies protecting the freedom.
So how could this bunnies listen to the evil guy Stalin and bomb civilians. Should not we say that the bunnies were at least as guilty as bad Stalin asking to bomb Dresden?
Yes Nazies would brutilise and kill you for no reason. Stalin would likely to brutilise and send to GULAG if you stand on his way. Allies if you stand on they way bit you up until you are ready to die and stop just there. And then make you belive that they saved you.
A lot of comments in here remind me of the Soviet propaganda, jut taken with opposit sign. PLEASE!!! Be a little bit critical to your self? I beg you, guys!!!
.
Good point! What stunning logic you’ve employed!
Right after you.
After all, you’re leaders murdered far more people than my leaders did…
You mean like citing the ramblings, stated for political consumption, of the fmr. Soviet ambassador to the FGR, Vladie Fali as concrete evidence?
Good point! What stunning logic you’ve employed!
My friend, if you do not see the logic in my statemen, then I can not help you. But it does not matter really…
After all, you’re leaders murdered far more people than my leaders did…
Yuo are absolutely right here! We learned hard way to accept and aknowledge our mistakes. Have you?
You mean like citing the ramblings, stated for political consumption, of the fmr. Soviet ambassador to the FGR, Vladie Fali as concrete evidence?
No, I mean like taking what he says leaving out the emotinal part and checking the events he refferes to. Is this wrong?
I’d rather you’d stop him hitting me again, even if it means you hitting him with a bigger bat
Nickdfresh!
Redcoat and I are warning you that we have just signed non-agression agrement.
And we ferociously deny existence of any secret protocols! :roll:
Funny bugger;)
Regards Digger
Egorka , Digger is right this has nothing to do with Dresden victims.
But you have a point. Wat was the reason of cruel firebombing of German cities in last period of war.
Our western friends talk about REVENGE. This was revenge for victims in Britain from air-attacks of Germans.OK.
Actually, the figure of 60,000 British civilians killed by German attacks comes to mind, but I could be wrong.
Actually mate you are wrong. Now look to the figures
According to Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain
British casulates were 27 450 dead and 32 138 wonderd SINCE jule 1940 - may 1941 i.y. for 10 month.
PLUS
about 4 000 dead and 6 000 woundered by German rocketry (V-1/2) during all the war.
Thus we have about 30 000 killed and 40 000 woundered people in Britain in ALL WW2.
Certainly German’s aim was the terror and killing the people ( mostly civilians). We all know it. This was barbarian war action which had the political purposes in the first period of war. There is no any doubts.
Well according to the British sources the victims of Dresden was about 25 000 and about 35 000 ONLY FOR 13 HOURS 13-14 feb of 1945.
The total quantity of firestorm tactic in Germany was about 600 000. But this was a resault of work both RAF and USAF.
Let consider RAF killed half. thus we have 30 000 x 300 000 or 1 x 10.
Strange REVENGE don’t you think. If we claimed the H. Goering as criminals so why the Artur Harris who personaly was responsible for killing TEN times more people is WAR HERO. Don’t we use the dual standarts?
OK i suppose the Britains will object. They ( germans ) rised the wing, so we made them the storm. Right?
But problem that the lion part of “storm” drop to the Germany during last year of war summer 1944 - auril 1945 i.e. when the fate of war was clear - the Germany certainly lose it. After the second front was opened the war defeat of Germany was just the matter of close time.
This way the firestorm tactic was nothing more than cruel retribution for the german population.
Sure we could endless talk about importaince of civils in the war production,ancien Huge conventions of the beginning of 20 centyr which let us to bomb the cities. But fact is fact.
Strategic bombers killed is over million civils in WW2 and nobody was convicted for this.
We pretend not only to be the victors in WW2, we pretend to be the better , more moral and human side in this cruel war.Right?
So why we have close the eyes to the our owm war criminals?
May be we not better the nazist indeed
Cheers.
Indeed, and at least some of the Allies were.
While we in the West were forced to fight Nazi Germany almost as ruthlessly as the Germans fought against us, can you name any British or US governmental policy to mistreat or harm any Axis civilians who came under our care when their towns and cities fell into our hands ?
That’s the difference between us and the Nazis. They fought a war of conquest and genocide, we didn’t
Strange REVENGE don’t you think. If we claimed the H. Goering as criminals so why the Artur Harris who personaly was responsible for killing TEN times more people is WAR HERO. Don’t we use the dual standarts?
No dual standard. It was as a leader of the Nazi party, and his role in starting the wars of conquest and genocide, as well as his role in the holocaust for which Goring was tried as a war criminal. No one ever faced criminal charges for the bombing of Britain in WW2.
OK i suppose the Britains will object. They ( germans ) rised the wing, so we made them the storm. Right?
But problem that the lion part of “storm” drop to the Germany during last year of war summer 1944 - auril 1945 i.e. when the fate of war was clear - the Germany certainly lose it. After the second front was opened the war defeat of Germany was just the matter of close time.
Then why didn’t they just surrender then, it would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives, both German and Allied
This way the firestorm tactic was nothing more than cruel retribution for the german population.
No it was a brutal but effective way of disrupting the infostructure of towns and cities so reducing their industrial output.
The British had taken due note of this tactics effectiveness during the Blitz in 1940-1.
So why we have close the eyes to the our owm war criminals?
May be we not better the nazist indeed
Do I really have to explain to you what is, or isn’t, a war crime yet again :roll: :lol:
You mean like installing a totalitarian gov’t? Raping the entire female population? Killing civilians in “firesack” artillery bombardments?
How many Germans were summarily executed by their Soviet captors with no trial? Why were German POWs held for over ten years after the end of the War?
You act as if the Western Allies have some sort of monopoly on ruthless total war. This is quite a false notion.
And you are the beneficiary of the brutal Allied strategic bombing campaign, as were your relatives…
Actually mate you are wrong. Now look to the figures
According to Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain
British casulates were 27 450 dead and 32 138 wonderd SINCE jule 1940 - may 1941 i.y. for 10 month.
PLUS
about 4 000 dead and 6 000 woundered by German rocketry (V-1/2) during all the war.
Thus we have about 30 000 killed and 40 000 woundered people in Britain in ALL WW2.
I was speaking of total British civilian deaths: http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html
(I have a near photographic memory as far as numbers go, don’t bother to quibble.)
[b]United Kingdom[55] … 67,800 (civilian deaths)
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
Certainly German’s aim was the terror and killing the people ( mostly civilians). We all know it. This was barbarian war action which had the political purposes in the first period of war. There is no any doubts.
Well according to the British sources the victims of Dresden was about 25 000 and about 35 000 ONLY FOR 13 HOURS 13-14 feb of 1945.
The total quantity of firestorm tactic in Germany was about 600 000. But this was a resault of work both RAF and USAF.
Let consider RAF killed half. thus we have 30 000 x 300 000 or 1 x 10.
Strange REVENGE don’t you think. If we claimed the H. Goering as criminals so why the Artur Harris who personaly was responsible for killing TEN times more people is WAR HERO. Don’t we use the dual standarts?
OK i suppose the Britains will object. They ( germans ) rised the wing, so we made them the storm. Right?
But problem that the lion part of “storm” drop to the Germany during last year of war summer 1944 - auril 1945 i.e. when the fate of war was clear - the Germany certainly lose it. After the second front was opened the war defeat of Germany was just the matter of close time.
This way the firestorm tactic was nothing more than cruel retribution for the german population.
Sure we could endless talk about importaince of civils in the war production,ancien Huge conventions of the beginning of 20 centyr which let us to bomb the cities. But fact is fact.
Strategic bombers killed is over million civils in WW2 and nobody was convicted for this.
We pretend not only to be the victors in WW2, we pretend to be the better , more moral and human side in this cruel war.Right?
So why we have close the eyes to the our owm war criminals?
May be we not better the nazist indeed
Cheers.
Are you just making this shit up? Good then, have fun.
Cheers.
British aircraft production was far less than American aircraft production. The British would have had far less aircraft to bomb with than the Americans.
Well the allies themself let Stalin the full moral right to installing that gov which he like.
May be you could ask why they let him to do it?
Raping the entire female population?
was it entire? Well just if to believe the Goebbels. He very like to represents rape for the “entire female populations” like and a “millions perished under allies bombs”.
Anyway is it already good example for allies. If dirty Red Army rape the germans woman we will burn them by napalm. Red Army dear Nick don’t used the tactic which mass killed the germans children.
Killing civilians in “firesack” artillery bombardments?
Artillery bombardments has a limited the radius action. This is the front-line and area near. You can not suddenly to bomb the sleeper city in the centre of germany and killed 20-30- 50 000 civils by ARTILLERY. This is nonsense.
How many Germans were summarily executed by their Soviet captors with no trial?
Well if they were a SS or police battalion member ( which both made the atrosities in the East) they could be shooted but only after the special military tribunal. The cases of quick shooting certainly were but it was’n mass.
Indeed in fact that the lot of East front criminals run to the West and after the war they calmly lived to the death. Look for instance to the SS commander Bah Zelevski.
Why were German POWs held for over ten years after the end of the War?
4 years indeed but some of germans were in prisons till 1953. It’s not surprising after the scale of violence in the occuped soviet territories by germans.
You act as if the Western Allies have some sort of monopoly on ruthless total war.
I’d never said this.
The Allies hight command is responsible for the planning and realising the actions which caused the mass death of civilians.
This is not the simular of incidental (or not) the half-educated Red Army killing and rapes in the occuped german territories. Soviet military high command had NEVER SANCTIONED IT ( and even try to pursued simular criminals).
The manyes cases of rape were mosly resault of violence in the East. Soviet soldiers ummoral behaviour (some of them which didn’t finished the school ) were not the standart for the allied high command. Right?
And you are the beneficiary of the brutal Allied strategic bombing campaign, as were your relatives…
Oh no Nick. I even little thankfull for the allies for the retrebution.
But the point is they couldn’t be the holy among the hell. If we are sentenced Nazis leaders ( and shooted the collaboritioned with them ), hanged the Japanes high command convicted the Stalin and Red Army who will believe that the allies were holly.
Just my modest oppinion
I was speaking of total British civilian deaths: http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html
(I have a near photographic memory as far as numbers go, don’t bother to quibble.)
[b]United Kingdom[55] … 67,800 (civilian deaths)
Nick is it you words:
Actually, the figure of 60,000 British civilians killed by German attacks comes to mind, but I could be wrong.
So the TOTAL VICTIMS of British civilians in WW2 which included the victims of both Germans and Japanes war.
The victims of Germany air attacks( bombing + killed by V1/2 rocket ) is about 30 000. The rest 30 000 are perished from german ( Navy attack + U-boat attacks about 3000-5000) and 25 000 are victims on Pathific war.
Are you just making this shit up? Good then, have fun.
Have fun if it funny for you
Well redcoat thanks for the reply. It interesting.
If you’ll wath to the statistic of civils victims which give us honest Nickdfresh
http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html
you could learn that Allies fight not “almost as ruthlessly as Germans” but at least 20 times more ruthlessly than the Germans.
Look to the figures:
Total victims of ciilians of UK from germans was about 35 000 - 40 000 ( Air attac + Naval attacks)
Plus US lost … zero civilians.
But Germany lost from ONLY ALLIES AIR ATTACS about 500 000- 600 000 civilians from the total 2 million perished civilians in the WW2.
IS it not strange for you to tell now that allies fight almost as ruthlessly as Germans?
I can say it about Red Army.The USSR lost about 19 million civilians in WW2.
They had to figh almost as ruthlessly as Germans becouse even after this they could to kill no more 1,2 -1,4 mln Germans civilians ( or only 7% of murdered soviet civils).
Certaimly the killing of civiliand noway could be justified, but in the Red Army’s case i just could understand it …
But the massacre of the Germans by the Allies bombers is absolutluy inexplicable for me.
Then why didn’t they just surrender then, it would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives, both German and Allied
Becouse they still had enough army which was absolutly didn’t touched by strategic bombing.
No it was a brutal but effective way of disrupting the infostructure of towns and cities so reducing their industrial output.
There was anothe oppinion - it was most deares and ineffective way to fight with gernan army.
The British had taken due note of this tactics effectiveness during the Blitz in 1940-1.
Oh was it really effective Blitz in 1940-1. What was effective: Luftwaffe lost two times more aircraft than the RAF.
Oh may be Britains was in panic and was ready to stop the fight ;)?
Everybody know that the “Battle of Britain” was very ineffective in war ( and political) sence for the Germany.
Do I really have to explain to you what is, or isn’t, a war crime yet again :roll: :lol:
Please have the patience dear redcoat.
And call it as crime agains humanity if you wish
Cheers.
Chevan,
I guess the reason they do not get it is that they come from different culture. You see, in their culture this is just not a crime in any way.
Please have some understanding to them. Do not push them, otherwise they might do something not criminal again…
OK, aside from the ‘debate’ on how killing civilians is ‘bad’, I’m wondering when Irving got into the so called Holocaust denial. The only work of Irving that I have read was “Hitler’s War”, and he seems pretty clear about the fact that the Holocaust did occur and that it was deliberate. The only divergence from the ‘main stream’ was his questioning of whether Hitler clearly and directly ordered it, or whether Himmler ‘read between the lines’ and initiated the setting up of the ‘death camps’ on his own authority. I’m not sure that position actually qualifies as ‘Holocaust denial’, does it?