Did US Soldiers that Died in Vietnam "Die in Vain?"

Exactly.

The Americans hamstrung themselves.

Although when Nixon indicated he might nuke NVN, NVN suddenly found itself able to advance the peace talks it had been stalling for ages.

The problem goes back to the start of the ‘war’ when America became directly involved, although it really goes back to the division of Vietnam about a decade earlier. Kennedy and Co wanted only to prop up the Diem regime, until they worked out that, as is common with America when it clumsily and ignorantly interferes in other countries to pursue its narrow and ill-considered interests, they had backed the wrong horse. Nobody saw how it was going to develop at the start, because the Americans thought they could contain the anti-Diem forces and then they thought they could handle the various politicians and crooks who succeeded the crooked politician (Diem) America backed to begin with. Not unlike America’s other brilliant exercises of a similar nature in other parts of the world, giving rise to the modern belligerent Iran, long term support for Saddam Hussein, and various human rights abuses in South America such as Chile in the early 1970s.

Anyway, back to Vietnam.

Then Kennedy or others in his Administration gave the green light to Diem’s assassination (or maybe they didn’t and were even more ill-informed and ill-advised than they appeared) http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB101/index.htm and everything turned to shit after that as the US dragged itself deeper and deeper into a swamp with no bottom as long as it confined itself to not taking the war into NVN and not going north of the DMZ on land.

A war which does not have as its ultimate objective the defeat of the enemy is just a waste of everything and everyone involved.

A war which cannot be won from the air, which the Vietnam war couldn’t, requires a land advance into the enemy’s territory.

That could not happen as long as SVN / US and their allies would not cross the DMZ and advance towards Hanoi with the clear intention of capturing it and subjugating NVN.

As long as Hanoi and NVN knew they weren’t going to be invaded, and were not invaded, they would keep invading SVN.

It requires a military idiot of spectacular incompetence or masochism to run a war on the basis that it allows the enemy to cross a border to invade its territory but it won’t respond by doing the same to the enemy.

There were wider political reasons for that refusal to go north revolving around the risk of Chinese and or Russian involvement at the height of the Cold War, because Vietnam was a proxy war between the US and its allies against the communists (which the US and its allies thought were all the same, conveniently ignoring that Vietnam and China had been enemies for perhaps a thousand years or more and China and the Soviets weren’t exactly singing from the same hymn book) but in those circumstances it was just plain bloody stupid to try to prosecute a war that couldn’t be won against NVN because nobody was going to invade it.

I tell out of town guests who want to see the Alamo, “This is where John Wayne, Billy Bob Thornton and Fess Parker died.”

That’s much easier for an 80 year old man to say than for a 20 year old one.

When I travel to South East Asia, I encounter everywhere progresses that embody what we fought to achieve … not just ‘free the oppressed’ but a culture that has a greatly improved opportunity for all and freedoms that are greatly more than when we made our stand in Vietnam. The quality of life has significantly improved and much of those improvements throughout SE Asia were initiated and began with US funding for both civilian and military endeavors.

The troops in my scout squad that were killed in Vietnam and others that were killed that I knew well are alive in the faces of so many SE Asian people…happy, polite, intelligent, interesting and mindful of life and the beauty of SE Asia and the world at large…they are and will always remain our people and our countries…we won much of the greatness of what they are today…no Chinese Bandit Scout [Recon 1st Bn (ABN) 8th Cav] died in vain.

If I could have prevented their deaths, then I would have done so then but they fought willingly and in 1965-66 they were not lead by the unqualified or fighting for the ungrateful…they died surrounded by the best and believing that their cause was right and just.

First you would have to ask yourself the question, as it/did it, make any difference to today’s America

Meine Walkure

By Ranger Jerry L Conners
Chinese Bandit Recon 1st Bn (ABN) 8th Cav
1965-66

Handmaiden of Oden
I beckon thee
embrace me
and carry me forth

My lovely Valkyrie,
come for me
and open thy heart
and soul

Know my battles
and judge me
lest I be forgotten
on this inconspicuous field

Remove my blood
soaked tunic
and carry me aloft
into the drying winds

Fear me not Valkyrie,
close neither wings nor dreams
but take me high
into the world above

Lovely Valkyrie,
come to me and
hear the music
of my warrior’s fire and
let our unbridled passion
consume us in the
twilight of the gods

Dedicated to Carlos R Hatcher,
Chinese Bandit 13 Rear Security Team Leader
KIA 1966

Carlos R Hatcher, Chinese Bandit 13 Rear Security Team Leader 1965-66 (KIA 1966)
By Ranger Conners, Chinese Bandit 13

In February 1965 the US Airbase located outside of Pleiku had been attacked resulting in American casualties and additional US troops were assigned to improve security at the base. During the Battle of the Ia Drang Oct-Nov 1965, the Chinese Bandit 13 reconnaissance scout squad of the Chinese Bandit Recon Platoon patrolled the wooded areas around the tea plantations surrounding Pleiku…a large NVA attack was expected at Pleiku but did not materialize, however the security of the area remained a concern and the Jumping Mustangs 1st Bn (ABN) 8th Cav deployed to the hills above the large lake north of the city in December.

All three Chinese Bandits recon scout squads conducted patrolling around the assembled battalion bivouac site and the Montagnard village located on the far side of the lake. During this period the Jumping Mustang Battalion conducted parachute jumps from UH-1 helicopters and celebrated Christmas. On 30 December the Chinese Bandit 13 Scout Squad was inserted by helicopter onto a clear and barren field adjacent to the Montegard village and immediately came under small arms fire from positions within the village. During combat assaults the scout squad responded with an assault team lead by the scout squad leader and a support team led by the scout team leader. However, during the rapid response, I was in the position to best lead the assault team and Frank Spickler the support team which included the M60 machinegun. Our response required an aggressive execution and Carlos R Hatcher, the Chinese Bandit 13 original rear security man, took possession of the M60 and Frank Spickler and Raymond Carley maneuvered towards the main ‘street’ that was the entrance to the fence lined village. Spickler, Hatcher and Carley were members of the original recon platoon formed from the Ft. Benning based 11th Air Assault and they worked together as a team in any crisis, often ‘leaving the others behind”. The persons firing on the Chinese Bandits withdrew as the assault team advanced and ‘crashed’ through the thin wooden fence. Only three bullets were fired at the assault team during the rush towards the village and the shooting stopped when we entered the village. The Chinese Bandit 13 Scout Squad members had only superficial injuries and no one was wounded during our assault and we were directed by radio to depart the village and continue the originally planned patrol route.

That evening we arrived by at the Chinese Bandit Recon Platoon’s bivouac site. After a short debriefing a meeting was held where the acting Platoon Sergeant, SSG Robert Grimes, Jr. announced that the Chinese Bandits were to be reorganized and persons reassigned. I was promoted to Scout Squad Leader of the Chinese Bandit 13 scout squad, and selected Frank Spickler as my Scout Squad Team Leader and Raymond Carley’s request for the M60 machine gun was approved. Carlos Hatcher would remain the rear security man. Louis Tyler’s request to join the point team with Big and Little Hall was also approved. Terry Stevens was ‘persuaded’ to remain the Chinese Bandit 13 radio operator with the understanding that his major responsibility included forward observer and calling for fire support duties. The next day the Chinese Bandit 13 Scout Squad resumed patrolling around the lake and training of those having new squad assignments. I spent most of day helping Tyler develop his needed tracking skills and Stevens preparing ‘dry’ fire missions and memorizing the necessary fire commands. The area was open with only shrubs for concealment and the men remained about 100 meters apart during the patrol. On several occasions I was able to see Hatcher trailing the patrol and scanning the area with his binoculars. He was often almost 1000 meters from me and I used my binoculars to watch him and others in the patrol. He was curious about everything, outwardly more so than any other Chinese Bandit and requested a set of binoculars which many reconnaissance type units did not issue for the rear security slot; however I encouraged others to carry them also, only half of the men did and no one used them as often as Hatcher and no one enjoyed exploring the hills and valleys as much as he did. I had learned during the patrolling in late November and December that he loved South East Asia and I believed more so than anyone other than maybe myself. I gave him copies of the issued Vietnamese phrase book and he and I spent time attempting to learn the language.

When we returned from patrolling, SSG Grimes notified me that we the three scout squads would begin rotating patrolling duties with two of the squads patrolling and one in ‘stand down’. The patrolling would be limited to the area only around the lake and routine enough that no preparation of warning orders, operations orders, etc was required since few changes were to be made in the patrolling. Therefore, we decided to use the day of from patrolling resting in the Chinese Bandit bivouac site.

Beer was available and the Chinese Bandit 13 Scout Squad members set around camp fires drinking the free beers that were provided. I did not join my men but set apart drinking from a large bottle of beer looking down at the lake and ‘hatched’ a plan to take an unauthorized trip to Pleiku. We had been briefed and observed of the frequent South Vietnamese military vehicle conveys that moved along the highway to and from Pleiku where the city was NOT consider a safe secure area and US and South Vietnamese military personnel were not given ‘free rein’ to visit. After walking in darkness back up to the ‘make shift’ NCO club near the Jumping Mustangs CP and returning with another beer, I stopped and listened to the squad members talking around the fire. “Now we get to operate like we wanted,” Hatcher said. There morale was high and I departed back to finish the beer where I decided that I would go into Pleiku the next day. I returned to where the men were still talking and ‘put an end’ to the beer drinking and gave a short briefing on the training and preparation for the planned patrolling where Frank Spickler would be in charge and that I was going alone into Pleiku.

The next morning we ate breakfast and I spent some time getting Frank Spickler ‘lined out’ on what was to be done while I was gone. I watched Spickler and the men for awhile and Hatcher approached and inquired on how I was going to get to Pleiku and what I intended to do in the city. I told him that I would link up with one of the convoys and once in the city that I would walk around and maybe eat in a restaurant or bar. The scout squad members knew that I had lived in SE Asia before the war and interested in the culture. “Yes, there should be prostitutes at some of the bars”, I said. Hatcher indicated that he wanted to go also. I sent Hatcher back to continue working with Spickler. After a few months, I told Hatcher to get a .45 pistols and belt set up and that would be all that we would be carrying. I do know why I agreed to take him with me…probably due to his interest in Vietnam and wanting to learn everything about the country and the people. He was a true scout.

Hatcher and I walked towards the highway where we waited less than 15 minutes and were able to hitch a ride with an ARVN unit…in the back of a 2 ½ ton truck. I sat down but Hatcher stood up holding on to the wooden side panels where he could see as much as possible. Several times he tugged on my fatigue shirt to point out something of interest. When we arrived in Pleiku we both stood up near the back of the truck where we could better observe the city. Somewhere near the center of the city where a Y-intersection occurred, I saw a young woman wearing the white traditional Vietnamese long dress and hat walking away from us down a street lined with shops and two story buildings. I yelled for the vehicle to stop and Hatcher and I jumped to the pavement. When we did so the woman in white stopped and looked over her shoulder at us, smiled and then resumed walking.

The remainder of this dedication can be read at http://www.docstoc.com/docs/70400640/Carlos-R-Hatcher-Chinese-Bandit-13-Rear-Security-Team-Leader-1965-66

“Before Glory”

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/vietnam-napalm-girl-now-353380

We were soldiers, most of us were volunteers. Despite what the media and anti-war people portrayed relatively few draftees served in VN and even fewer in Combat Arms (funny how every VN vet in the VFW and/or American Legion was a “combat” soldier).

We don’t want to die but understand that is part of what we sign on for - you take your chances. We, the soldiers, the military and the country, did learn lessons - how well we learned them is another question.

Viet Nam was no more in vain than the Indian Wars, the Mexican War, the Spanish American War, or the Korean War.

As a soldier, your trained to use a weapon on a firing range firing at targets, what their training you for is to kill, whether your then placed in a position to do so that’s another thing.

When you say, die for your Country, you need to ask by doing so, did it actually make any difference, unlike WW2, were it did. when you get older, you ask more questions, and are not easily fooled/duped in to believing every thing your told by corrupt (I don’t know if I can mention the word politician).

Why make a special issue of WWII as being something distinct from the usual process of politicians and people of power and wealth causing wars which harm the common person in pursuit of the aims of politicians and people of power and wealth, who promise the grunts and their widows and children a land fit for heroes when the pressure is on but deliver little or nothing after the war is won? Or lost?

Forget the Allies for a moment.

What did the Japanese soldiers get from the “serve and die for the Emperor” bullshit promoted by the nationalist / militarist / capitalist crew which took Japan to war for their own aims?

What did the Russian and other Soviet communist soldiers get from the communist bullshit promoted by Stalin the dictator who did deals with the Nazis to preserve his own regime and to expand his own empire?

What did the Italian soldiers get from that overblown fascist clown Mussolini in pursuit of his colonial ambitions in Africa?

What did the German soldiers get from the ambitions of Hitler and the German capitalist cabal he represented, or at least that that cabal thought he represented at the start?

The deaths which made a difference in WWII, if like me one subscribes to the view that the main Axis powers were evil as demonstrated by the war crimes and crimes against humanity by the Germans and Japanese, were the Allied deaths opposing that evil.

But the fact remains that millions died on the other side for their countries, believing their countries’ version of the justness of their cause. Plus many more civilians.

I can’t think of a greater waste of human life to no good purpose.

WW2 was a World War, and live’s were lost in keeping the World safe, did they die in vain

As for the Japanese army, yes they did, die in vain.

As for the Russian army. and Stalin: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/Teplyakov.html.

As for the Italian army, did they have one, I know their battle flag, was a white cross on a white background!.

As for the German army, yes they did, die in vain.

My Vietnam unit (Chinese Bandit Recon 1st Bn (ABN) 8th Cav, 1st Cav Division 1965-66) and individuals were trained to fight when decisively engaged and when doing so and manuevering knew that casualties would be incurred.

Fighting when decisively engaged requires courage and skill whereas killing does not. Placing yourself in harmsway to assist and protect the men in your unit and the people of SE Asia, especially when trained to fight when decisively engaged and doing so knowingly is characteristic of the best combat troops of any era or combat condition.

Many and most of the goals for which we fought in SE Asia have been realized…the entire region is significantly more politically stabilized, and freedom and opportunity increased for the majority of the population and the economic advances of what is now the “Tiger Economy” was stimulated by both US military and economic aid throughout Asia, including SE Asia.

These were the issues that the men in my unit believed important and gave their lives, heart and soul to achieve as they responded to the ‘sound of the guns’. We were not trained to kill, but to fight when decisively engaged and do so for each other and the peoples of SE Asia.

Replacing a communist dictatorship with a capitalist dictatorship does not constitute a just war. This seems to be part of a mindset that the USA cannot shake - a capitalist, a Christian or an oil giving dictatorship is no better than a communist, Muslim or oil hoarding dictatorship. Millions of civilians on both sides were killed by a conflict over which socio-economic system was superior. Perhaps the worst thing, however, is the brainwashing that still occurs in the western world today, the idea of Dulce et Decorum est Pro Patria Mori - It is a sweet and seemly thing to die for one’s country. Firstly, one must question whether or not going to Indochina to murder civilians and shoot foreigners is achieving an outcome that is beneficial for one’s country. Secondly, one must consider whether a country run by an elite that could not care less about the common man is worth dying for. And finally, and this is most relevant to not just the Vietnam War, but to every war the USA or NATO members have fought in since the end of the last just war, the Second World War, and that is the idea that a single footsoldier can make a difference. The footsoldiers being killed by the Vietcong, the Taliban or the LRA are no different to men that stood in lines and slowly marched towards enemy artillery emplacements, patiently waiting for the next cannonball to hit them. It makes a very good press release to say that the soldier that was killed by a roadside bomb or stepped on a landmine died ‘for their country’ or ‘for what they believed in’, and one cannot die for one’s country unless one’s death contributed to the well-being of that country. We must face the harsh reality that all soldiers in every war except some parts of the Second World War died for, let’s face it, nothing. The concept that one soldier can make a difference is similar to the principles held by militaristic civilisations such as the Vikings or the Feudal Japanese, or by the very fascist states that the west seem to be convinced they are fighting. Therefore Dulce et Decorum est Pro Patria Mori is a concept used by sabre-rattling jingos to force down the throats of their naive, militaristic population in an attempt to win votes through the chance of a foreign policy victory that draws attention from the debacles that are occurring in their flawed domestic poicies.

It should be noted that the Saigon regime wasn’t really the United States’ doing. Certainly there was much overlap and involvement in the many upheavals, including in the coup against Diem in 1962. But it would be simplistic, unfair, and historically inaccurate to simply characterize the Saigon cluster**** of a intrigue-infested regime as simply an American “puppet” or “capitalist dictatorship”. My understanding is much of the South’s ruling elite came out of the French colonial occupation gov’t and predated America’s direct involvement in the conflict. It should also be noted that when the United States effectively changed strategies to a “clear and hold” mentality from “search and destroy” (aka body count) one, the command there under Gen. Abrams attempted to counter the VC/NLF with the “Ruff-puffs” or the Regional and Provincial defense forces (territorial army/reserve) to build a more democratic and armed system at the village level in hopes that this would eventually filter up to the Saigon regime in the ensuing years as well as cutting off NLF terror and control at the local level. The Ruff-Puffs were in fact often better armed at an infantry level than many of the ARVN forces were…

Following the end of America’s combat role in Vietnam in 1973, and the subsequent fall of Saigon to the North Vietnamese Army (NVA) in 1975, the often prophesied and much feared resurgence of McCarthyite Red-baiting, the bitter accusations of “who lost Vietnam?” barely transpired. Rather than massive recriminations, a collective amnesia took hold. The majority of Americans, it appeared, neither wanted to talk or think about their nation’s longest and most debilitating war–the only war the United States ever lost. That forgetfulness gave way in the early 1980s to a renewed interest in the war: Hollywood, network television, and the music industry made Vietnam a staple of popular culture; and scholars, journalists, and Vietnam veterans produced a flood of literature on the conflict, especially concerning its lessons and legacies. Much of it, emphasizing the enormity of the damage done to American attitudes, institutions, and foreign policy by the Vietnam ordeal, echoed George R. Kennan’s depiction of the Vietnam War as "the most disastrous of all America’s undertakings over the whole two hundred years of its history.

Initially, the humiliating defeat imposed by a nation Secretary of State Henry Kissinger had described as “a fourth-rate power” caused a loss of pride and self-confidence in a people that liked to think of the United States as invincible. An agonizing reappraisal of American power and glory dampened the celebration of the Bicentennial birthday in 1976. So did the economic woes then afflicting the United States, which many blamed on the estimated $167 billion spent on the war. President Lyndon B. Johnson’s decision to finance a major war and the Great Society simultaneously, without a significant increase in taxation, launched a runaway double-digit inflation and mounting federal debt that ravaged the American economy and eroded living standards from the late 1960s into the 1990s.

The United States also paid a high political cost for the Vietnam War. It weakened public faith in government, and in the honesty and competence of its leaders. Indeed, skepticism, if not cynicism, and a high degree of suspicion of and distrust toward authority of all kind characterized the views of an increasing number of Americans in the wake of the war. The military, especially, was discredited for years. It would gradually rebound to become once again one of the most highly esteemed organizations in the United States. In the main, however, as never before, Americans after the Vietnam War neither respected nor trusted public institutions.

Chunky, this is an official Mod warning. If you’re going to cut and paste others’ work, you need to cite the author and ideally provide a link. I thank you for complying with this in the future. Link: http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/vietnam/postwar.htm

I only needed that part, that’s why I copied and pasted it, which I thought was acceptable to this forum, as I thought others were doing the same, to put their point over, when you talk about history, you have to refer to history. unless your the one who wrote it. Going back to you warning, when I became a member of this forum, there was no mention, saying I could not cut and paste, if there is, please point be to where it is said. I will log out now, I will try to log back on later.

It’s acceptable when one provides links and attribution. I think there are several examples of quoted text where links are provided…

BTW, I don’t give a shit if this is written in the bylaws or whatever. Plagiarism is plagiarism and you could potentially make this site liable if they push the issue. I also just find it appallingly intellectually dishonest and lazy…