Do you think the confederate flag should be on public display?

Site Issues 2008 Archive Room
#21

Confederados
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederados

At the end of the American Civil War, Emperor Dom Pedro II of Brazil wanted to encourage cultivation of cotton. Through Freemasonry contacts, he recruited experienced cotton planters from the Unites States for his nation. Dom Pedro offered the potential immigrants subsidies and tax breaks. General Robert E. Lee advised Southerners not to migrate to South America, but many ignored his advice and set out to establish a new life away from the destruction of war.

Many Southerners who took the Emperor’s offer had lost their land during the war, were unwilling to live under a conquering army, or simply did not expect an improvement in the South’s economic position. In addition, Brazil still had slavery (and did not abolish it until 1888.) Although a number of historians state that the existence of slavery was an appeal, Alcides Gussi, an independent researcher of State University of Campinas, found that only four families owned a total of 66 slaves from 1868 to 1875. Most of the immigrants were from the states of Alabama, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Georgia, and South Carolina.

No one has determined how many Americans emigrated to Brazil in the postwar years. As noted in unpublished research, Betty Antunes de Oliveira found in port records of Rio de Janeiro that some 20,000 Americans entered Brazil from 1865 to 1885. Other researchers have estimated the number at 10,000. An unknown number returned to the United States when conditions in the South improved. Most immigrants adopted Brazilian citizenship.

The immigrants settled in various places, ranging from the urban areas of Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo to the northern Amazon region, especially Santarém, and Paraná in the south. Most of the Confederados settled near São Paulo about two hours north in the area around present-day Santa Bárbara d’Oeste and Americana, Brazil. The latter name was derived from Vila dos Americanos, as the natives called it. The first Confederado recorded was Colonel William H. Norris of Alabama. The colony at Santa Bárbara D’Oeste is sometimes called the Norris Colony.

Dom Pedro’s program was judged a success for both the immigrants and the Brazilian government. The settlers brought modern agricultural techniques for cotton, as well as new food crops, such as watermelon and pecans, that spread among native Brazilian farmers. Some dishes of the American South were also adopted in general Brazilian culture, such as chess pie, vinegar pie, and southern fried chicken.

The early Confederados continued many elements of American culture, for instance, establishing the first Baptist churches in Brazil. They created public schools, including education for their female children, which was unusual then in Brazil. The Confederados founded Colégio Internacional in Campinas and the Escola Americana in São Paulo for higher education.

In a change from the South, the Confederados also educated slaves and black freemen in their new schools. To their Brazilian neighbors, this practice was considered unusual and even scandalous. The majority of Confederados were white Anglo-Americans, but this also included “Anglo-American” Cherokee, Choctaw and Muscogee Indians whom also owned slaves or were invited to settle in Brazil due to their advanced farming skills.

The first generation of Confederados remained an insular community. As is typical, by the third generation, most of the families had intermarried with native Brazilians or immigrants of other origins. Descendants of the Confederados increasingly spoke the Portuguese language and identified themselves as Brazilians. As the area around Santa Bárbara d’Oeste and Americana turned to the production of sugar cane and society became more mobile, the Confederados moved to cities for urban jobs. Today, only a few descendant families still live on land owned by their ancestors. The descendants of the Confederados are mostly scattered throughout Brazil. They maintain the headquarters of their descendant organization at the Campo center in Santa Bárbara D’Oeste, where there is a cemetery, chapel and memorial.

The descendants foster a connection with their history through the Associacao Desnedencia Americana (Fraternity of American Descendants), a descendant organization dedicated to preserving their unique mixed culture. The Confederados also have an annual festival, called the Festa Confederada, dedicated to fund the Campo center. The festival is marked by Confederate flags, traditional mid-19th c. American dress of Confederate uniforms and hoop skirts, food of the American South with a Brazilian flair, and dances and music popular in the American South during the antebellum period. The descendants maintain affection for the Confederate flag even though they identify as completely Brazilian. Modern Confederado descendants distance themselves from any of the 19th century racial controversies. Many Confederado descendants have traveled to the United States at the invitation of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, an American descendants’ organization, to visit Civil War battlefields, attend reenactments, or see where their ancestors lived.

In Brazil the Confederate flag has not been perceived as having the same political content as it has had in the United States. Many descendants of the Confederados are of mixed race and reflect the varied ethnic groups of Brazilian society in their physical appearance. Recently the Brazilian residents of Americana, now of primarily Italian descent, removed the Confederate flag from the city’s crest. Their reason was that Confederado descendants make up only 10 percent of the city’s population. In the wake of then-Governor Jimmy Carter’s visit to the region in 1972, the city had earlier adopted the Confederate flag. While in Brazil, Carter also visited the city of Santa Bárbara d’Oeste and the grave at the Campo of a great-uncle of his wife Rosalyn. Her relative was one of the original Confederados.

Campo Cemetery with its chapel and memorial, in Santa Bárbara d’Oeste, is a site of memory, as most of the original Confederados from the region were buried there. Because they were Protestant rather than Catholic, they were prohibited from the local cemeteries and had to establish their own. The Confederado descendants’ community has also contributed to an Immigration Museum at Santa Bárbara d’Oeste to present the history of immigration to Brazil.

Festa Confederada

The Confederate Flag Still Flies in the South
YouTube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVJrv5V-uMY

An award-winning 2001 documentary of the present day descendants of the “Confederado” immigrants to Brazil. It is set against the background of the “Festa Confederada”, a fund raising event which supports maintenance of the Campo Cemetery, which was started by Confederate exiles near the city of Santa Barbara d’Oeste in the State of Sao Paulo, Brazil. The film combines interviews of confederate descendants and their neighbors with illustrations and old photographs to tell the story of how the Confederates came to be in Brazil.

Confederate Party in Brazil / Festa dos Confederados
YouTube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1bVqB7gGKk

Festa dos confederados
YouTube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNw2WvJ7Q_0

More videos:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=confederado&search_type=&aq=f

Os Confederados
The Story of the U.S. Confederates in Brazil
http://www.comm.unt.edu/histofperf/tonyspenser/introduction_page.htm
http://www.comm.unt.edu/histofperf/tonyspenser/History%20of%20Confederados.htm
http://www.comm.unt.edu/histofperf/tonyspenser/Preserving%20the%20Culture.htm

Confederados Website
http://www.confederados.com.br/

The Confederados
http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=552

Confederados Keep Dixie Alive Down South in Brazil
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1006511/posts

Have A Dixie Day in Brasil
Confederadoes celebrate Southern Heritage
http://dixierising.com/southern_heritage/Confederado.phtml

154 Masonic Families Founded A City Of 170,000 In Brazil
http://www.scottishrite.org/council/journal/jun01/klein.html

The entrance to Americana, a Brazilian city founded in 1865
by Confederate emigrants, most of them Freemasons, is marked
by a large Square and Compasses monument with descriptive plaque.

The Confederados: Old South Immigrants in Brazil (Paperback)
http://www.amazon.com/Confederados-Old-South-Immigrants-Brazil/dp/0817309446

The Lost Colony of the Confederacy (Texas a & M University Military History Series) (Paperback)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1585441023?v=glance&n=283155

The Elusive Eden: Frank McMullan’s Confederate Colony in Brazil (Paperback)
http://www.amazon.com/Elusive-Eden-McMullans-Confederate-Colony/dp/0292720599

MORE:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=brazil+"Confederados"&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=brazil+"confederate"&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=brazil+"Americana"&btnG=Search

IMAGES:

http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q="Confederados"&btnG=Search+Images

#22

George, I heard an interesting program once on Art Bell (Coast to Coast AM) when he was still on.

About a rumor of a large Confederate stash of gold to fund a guerrilla war and ultimately to establish a capital in Cuba…

It was rather interesting…

#23

That sounds interesting Nick. I wonder if they were connected in some way with the Knights of the Golden Circle.

#24

And some…I’m renowned for it…must be me Oirish blood! :slight_smile:

#25

its part of history and for some people stood for something besides slavery, it stands for tradition and remembering that the south was once proud and respectful, not the ignorant rednecks we are portrayed in movies and television. we are the only people in america you can legally make fun of ,except the president.so heck, let us keep our flag, its about all the south has left to feel proud about. people can fly a nazi flag here and not get in trouble, why not the confederate?as long as its a peaceful ,tasteful display

#26

thank you booxerrick for your feedback say you wouldnt happen to be a member of sons of confederate vets would you?

#27

Its a while since I did US history but I seem to recall that your civil War wasnt actually about freedom from Slavery in the beginning. It had a part in it, but wasnt the whole reason the Southern States seceded.

States rights were seen to be cherished and it was perceived that these rights were being eroded. Many factors came to pass and a few States decided to leave the Union, a Union of States that had existed since the revolutionary war.

The Southern states though, just like the original 13 colonies perhaps, that they had the right to form a new country and government. The Northern states (US Government) thought, just as Britain had done 70 years previously that they were in control of the whole US.

The difference being, Britain lost her colonies and the US was born and the US held on to its states and so the south was stillborn. If history was slghtly different and the southern states had successfully left the union, then, we would be looking at a different world.

A lot of good men died for their cause and if displayed in the right context, I say, why not… its part of history.

#28

I believe that was the very subject matter, the group of that name…

I may he some conspiratorial, speculative fantasy hogwash like “The DaVinci Code” or something. But it was interesting…

#29

I believe that was the very subject matter, the group of that name…

I may he some conspiratorial, speculative fantasy hogwash like “The DaVinci Code” or something. But it was interesting…[/QUOTE]

I kind of got that impression. The Knights of the Golden Circle was a real organization that was mostly active in the south prior to the Civil War. I haven’t watched The DaVinci Code movie, but I got the impression from movie reviews that the organization was featured in the movie with a lot of hollywood embellishment. You’ll find a lot of information on the Knights of the Golden Circle if you google it.

One piece of information that I found interesting was that the Greek word for “Circle” is “Kuklos”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan
“The original Ku Klux Klan was created in the aftermath of the American Civil War by six educated, middle-class Confederate veterans on December 24, 1865 from Pulaski, Tennessee. They made up the name by combining the Greek “kyklos” (κυκλος , circle) with “clan” It was one among a number of secret, oath-bound organizations, including the Southern Cross in New Orleans (1865), and the Knights of the White Camellia.”

#30

no sir, but i have had ancestors who fought in robert e lees army of northern virginia.i visit a lot of re-enactments and even participated in reliving Morgans raids in northern kentucky, im not a racist or anything just proud of the brave people in my heritage and dont want them drug through the mud, god bless,rick

#31

In Hungary everyday problem the flags,especially one,the hungarian arrow cross party used under the war,and now this is a big problem,who use this flag(without cross) is mean a nazi,or isn’t.
But we have this stripes in our Crest.
This is a never ending story,in here :smiley:
Our Crest:
http://i38.tinypic.com/10yo2vk.jpg
Arrow cross party flag with uniform in similar armband,at the back the leader of the party Ferenc Szálasi
http://i38.tinypic.com/11acxa1.jpg

#32

What I, as a non-American, find particularly interesting about this post is the way in which the subsequent generations of immigrants have embraced becoming Brazillian. They appear to have retained some of their confederate culture e.g. food and social celebrations, but have dumped that which was negative. Amazing what a change of environment, from one of division to one of multi-culturalism, can contribute to extinguishing old and misplaced loyalties.

#33

What I, as a non-American, find particularly interesting about this post is the way in which the subsequent generations of immigrants have embraced becoming Brazillian. They appear to have retained some of their confederate culture e.g. food and social celebrations, but have dumped that which was negative. Amazing what a change of environment, from one of division to one of multi-culturalism, can contribute to extinguishing old and misplaced loyalties.[/QUOTE]

I thought it was quite interesting and would have to agree with you 32Bravo.

The Confederate Flag Still Flies in the South
YouTube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVJrv5V-uMY

An award-winning 2001 documentary of the present day descendants of the “Confederado” immigrants to Brazil. It is set against the background of the “Festa Confederada”, a fund raising event which supports maintenance of the Campo Cemetery, which was started by Confederate exiles near the city of Santa Barbara d’Oeste in the State of Sao Paulo, Brazil. The film combines interviews of confederate descendants and their neighbors with illustrations and old photographs to tell the story of how the Confederates came to be in Brazil.

On a visit to Savannah, Georgia a few years back, we watched a movie presentation at the city’s museum which documented Savannah’s history. They went through a similar transformation early in the history of the settlement. IIRC, originally founded as an exclusive colony for their particular sect of Anglo-Protestantism the settlement eventually became one of the most diverse and cosmopolitan cities in the south. Something they pride themselves in.

In midsummer 1733, five months after the English colonists, Sephardi Jews from Spain and Portugal arrived in Savannah. Over the next century and a half the city welcomed other non-English and non-Protestant immigrants: Irish Catholics, French Catholics and Huguenots, Greek Orthodox, and others. Savannah remains to this day one of the most cosmopolitan and diverse cities in the South.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Savannah%2C_Georgia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Oglethorpe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savannah%2C_Georgia

#34

Intended or not, the confederate flag does have a negative feel to it. It is looked at as being inflammatory and makes people uncomfortable. It should be in museums, but not on public display. It isn’t a sign of unity for me, seeing it outside someones home, labels them. But, should you want to fly it, then it is a right that you should have. Many black American soldiers have fought hard for you to have that right.

#35

The Confederate flag represents, for me, the sacrifice of my ancestors who fought for it. At the same time one must understand the view African-Americans have for what they see as a symbol of slavery. Even so I reserve the right to display the flag and do so. Several have stopped at my home to ask why I have the flag displayed. One black cable installer refuse to enter and setup my internet service. I respect his right and opinion. Some who stopped understood my position once I explained my reasons. Some did not. All I ask is my rights and opinions be respected also.

#36

In historical- context, or by those whose kin fought under that banner-yes.
By those who would steal it for the use of racial hate or ethnic cleansing-definitly not.
In its original form it is the battle flag of the confederate states of america-nothing more.

#37

I don’t think the use of the Confederate flag should be limited to those whose kin fought in the Confederate forces, if people want to fly it and have respect for what was a posative [ which most assuredly does not include slavery or the denial of civil rights to black people ] about the Confedracy good luck to them if they want to fly the flag. I don’t see anybody complaining about Government buildings etc in Europe flying the Euopean Union flag, which if they replaced the current design the European Union uses with the Third Reich’s design of a black Swastika on a white circle in the context of a red background would at least have the merit of being factually descriptive of what the European Union is about.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

#38

Hi, people have feelings and that has to be genuinely respected where such respect is warranted.That said, I think that the American black community has been seriously misled in that yes, black people were kidnapped from Africa and transported to the United States and forced to work as slaves and there is no way of saying that was right or proper or that it is did not cause black people great suffering. On the other hand, slavery in the USA was in the past and the country fought a civil war to end the practice, whilst some of the most prominent figures in the American black community in recent times have been particularly friendly to just the sort of folks that would regard people of black African ethnicity as on a level with pigs and monkeys, in that context being annoyed at somebody just because they are flying a Confederate flag from their house, looks to me just a bit too close to bonkers ( nuts ).

The Reverend Jeremiah Wright on America’s chicken’s coming home to roost
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzhl-endvco

Moses Ebe Ochonu on Arab racism against Black Africans
http://www.nigeriavillagesquare.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=1136

Best and Warm Regards
AdrianWainer

#39

nothing wrong with the Stars And Bars…integral part of American history, everyone knows who actually triumphed in the ACW anyway…no harm done.

I appreciate the merits of modern Southernersd all the more for a little study of the entire period…

#40

From the Toronto Star newspaper as it relates to the Confederate flag…

Robyn Doolittle
Staff Reporter

A Keswick man who strung a black-painted skeleton from a noose underneath an oversized Confederate flag has been sentenced to 45 days in jail.

Luke Granados, 26, pleaded guilty earlier this month to wilfully promoting hate.

The life-sized dummy was strung up from a flagpole underneath the Confederate flag in Keswick, north of Toronto, sometime in late October, early November last year.

A black man working in the area spotted the display and contacted his supervisor, who got in touch with the municipality.

York police began an investigation and requested Granados take down the “disgusting” display, said York Regional Police Chief Armand La Barge.

Granados refused, said Crown attorney Peter Westgate.

“(His original) position was it was a Halloween decoration,” said Westgate.

At the time, several neighbours contacted by the Star were asked why they never reported the skeleton to police. “This is a small town. They keep to themselves. We keep to ourselves,” said one resident.

By December, investigators were able to obtain a warrant to have it removed. Following a six-month probe by the Attorney General’s office, both Granados and his 22-year-old brother, Russell, were charged with hate crimes under the Criminal Code this past May.

Charges against the younger brother were withdrawn, said Westgate.