Do you think the USSR would've defeated Germany w/o allies?

[Drake]

@Kato

Nonsence. The USSR had clothed and fed its huge Red Army before German invasion for two decades without foreign assistance. What’s more Bolsheviks clothed and fed it even during the civil war. The bulk of Soviet transportation of cargo and troops were carried out by railroads during WWII.
The USSR had the electronic equipment for the coordination of large scale operations.

Yeah, 100 million tons of cotton and 15 million army boots tell a different story, so does 4.5 million tons of food. Railways? Hmm, you should one day read who provided the locomotives and waggons. And this only works for strategic movement, not for actual offensives. You need trucks for that, and guess who build them, I’ll tell you, it wasn’t the russians. The USSR had electronic equipment, hrhr, that’s why they needed ~60000 field telephones. And how exactly did the USSR produce tyres?

@Kato

The fact is that the USSR excelled Germany in every kind of resources needed for war.

This statement is simply wrong.

@Kato

It missed the excellent opportunity of turning WWII in the USSR into the full-scale interior civil and interethnic war leading to the collapse of the Red Army and the Soviet system.

Maybe, but that’s not the point.

[pdf27]

@Drake

Yeah, 100 million tons of cotton and 15 million army boots tell a different story, so does 4.5 million tons of food.

Not exactly. What Lend-Lease did for the Soviets - and did very well - was let them plug the least productive gaps in their economy with imported goods rather than having to make them themselves. The Soviets could either produce everything they imported or make an acceptable substitute, but removing the need to do so enabled them to fight the war much more effectively and freed up significant levels of manpower (the estimates I’ve seen are for over a million additional soldiers that were available due to lend-lease).
A good example of this is Gold Braid - the Soviets imported significant amounts from the British later in the war to add to dress uniforms, etc. as they found doing so significantly improved the morale and fighting efficiency of their troops. They could have made it themselves, but doing so would have taken away potential factory workers or fighting men, so they effectively bought it from someone else who was already making it. All in all a perfect example of free trade in action: the western allies contributed what they did well - mass production of technically advanced items - and so did the Russians - killing lots of Germans.

[Drake]

@pdf27

Not exactly. What Lend-Lease did for the Soviets - and did very well - was let them plug the least productive gaps in their economy with imported goods rather than having to make them themselves.

But that’s the whole point of my argument. Closing those gaps would have been costly to the Soviet war effort, imho so much, that they wouldn’t have had the capacity to build up enough strength to push into germany. And there was quite a lot of stuff within the lend lease shipments that russia had no hope of producing themselves at all or in the required amounts, particularly heavy machinery, tyres, industrial chemicals, explosives and electronics.

[Chevan]

@Kato

Germany failed to defeat the USSR because the Soviets had larger military build-up and because the short-sighted Reich’s policy violated the interests of all the nations living within the USSR. It missed the excellent opportunity of turning WWII in the USSR into the full-scale interior civil and interethnic war leading to the collapse of the Red Army and the Soviet system.

Poor Kato is suffering the Axis have losed the war:mrgreen:
If they win - all the nation that lived “within the USSR” lead by Ukraine - should reach a prosperity and happiness, without jews and others low-races:)
But damn, those “short-sighted Reich’s politics” did not wish to present the independence for all the nations thay has “liberated” in East.

[Chevan]

@pdf27

A good example of this is Gold Braid - the Soviets imported significant amounts from the British later in the war to add to dress uniforms, etc. as they found doing so significantly improved the morale and fighting efficiency of their troops. They could have made it themselves, but doing so would have taken away potential factory workers or fighting men, so they effectively bought it from someone else who was already making it.

very well pdf.
good point.
Why have you not demonstrated it early?

All in all a perfect example of free trade in action: the western allies contributed what they did well - mass production of technically advanced items - and so did the Russians - killing lots of Germans.

From what we can conclude that western alles fought not so well as soviets, killing less of germans.
But they have won the war in home front, organized the mass productions of everything.
I heard the ONLY USA was prodising about 100 000 of aircrafts per years.Fantastic figures.
Germans have no any chances to win home front.

[Chevan]

@Drake

But that’s the whole point of my argument. Closing those gaps would have been costly to the Soviet war effort, imho so much, that they wouldn’t have had the capacity to build up enough strength to push into germany. And there was quite a lot of stuff within the lend lease shipments that russia had no hope of producing themselves at all or in the required amounts, particularly heavy machinery, tyres, industrial chemicals, explosives and electronics.

Right point IMO.
Actualy the industrial possibilities of USSR were much less than Nacis Europe ones.
The half-industrial soviet economy can’t compete with Germans hight thech industry at that time.
The Technological gap of Germany and USSR was still such great that the soviets wasn’t able to produce some sort of DEPPLY Specialized equipment- was forced to buy it from Germany in 1939-1941.
In fact GErmany was also a single Soviet trade partner that provided the Soviet economy with extremaly rare and needed equipment.
The Germany that had one of the BEst world High-tech lewel (even absolute superior in some fields like Rocketly and jet aviation ) was able to creat a new kind of wearponry ( honestly speaking many of that “super Wearpon-Vengeance” was absolutly useless in military sense at that time).
Actualy the USSR wasn’t able to win the Economicaly and technologicaly superior Europe inspite of it’s resoure.
So honestly speaking , this is great our military luck , that we at least have stopped such strong enemy in the 1942.

[pdf27]

@Chevan

very well pdf. good point. Why have you not demonstrated it early?

I try (as a mod) to keep an eye on all the threads, but this one didn’t interest me enough to post in until very recently.

@Chevan

From what we can conclude that western alles fought not so well as soviets, killing less of germans.

To put it in purely economic terms, the Soviets had a competitve advantage - a very large land frontage with the Germans. The western Allies had an enormous technical challenge - a successful amphibious invasion on a massive scale - to solve before they could engage in a significant land-based action. It took from 1940 to 1944 to win the necessary preparatory battle (the Battle of the Atlantic) and to build the specialised shipping required/train the specialist units for this to work. The Soviets could merely fight a relatively conventional land battle, which could be done succesfully with what they already had.

@Chevan

But they have won the war in home front, organized the mass productions of everything.
I heard the ONLY USA was prodising about 100 000 of aircrafts per years.Fantastic figures.
Germans have no any chances to win home front.

It goes deeper than that. While the Germans had some brilliant technical ideas, by and large their “advanced” weapons were halfway bodged together prototypes put into mass production and never really suited to mass service. For a rather good explanation on exactly how badly the Germans screwed up in this area, I suggest you read this essay.

[flamethrowerguy]

In my opinion it would have been crucial that Japan attacked the USSR from the east and keep these siberian elite-divisions away from the russian wetern front.
After all, I think, the country’s just too huge to be conquered by “old-fashioned” warfare and no countrys’ army is/was big enough to do so and secure the occupied areas.
The Red Army respectively Staslin learned from the faults in the early OP Barbarossa stage. Their “elastic” warfare was an important step to victory sinde they “sucked” the german armies deeper and deeper into Russia, over-stretching the supply lines.

[B5N2KATE]

German high tech industry?

BALDERDASH…

More Great Patriotic War/ Roman Triumph propaganda in action…

German industry was significantly UNDERAUTOMATED…AND suffered from a lack of raw material. Albert Speer complained about this very issue, a problem he tried and failed to fix, a problem that was onlv rectified with post-war rebuilding.

Just to look at Tiger production alone, only 1,555 Tiger I’s produced and just over 500 Tiger II’s…

The USSR did not have a chance in HELL of marching into Germany without Western Aid…MONEY as much as material. Soviet Factories were quite good at producing AFV’s, for instance, but not much chop at the plethora of other vehicles needed for mechanized warfare…

The Red Army, through guts and determination, managed to bring Barbarossa to a standstill, but that was ALL it was capable of achieving without significant Western aid.

Don’t let these modern Russians pull the wool over your eyes…

BTW…I see Russian foreign policy has not changed much…still the same ol’ Imperialism in Georgia…Josef is rolling in his grave…Man of Rust that he was.

[B5N2KATE]

Just think of what could have been had the very many Anti-Aircraft guns deployed to protect German cities from allied bombers been available as TANKBUSTERS on the Ost-Front…

German technological sophistication? No Cavity Magnetron valve…no proximity fuses…Radar technology, especially seaborne radar, not as sophisticated as Allied products…the list goes on…

The Russians would like you to think that their war was won entirely on their own…what EYEWASH…

[B5N2KATE]

“From what we can conclude, the W/Allies fought not as well as the Soviets…”

I would not call the casualties sustained by the Red Army “fighting well” at all…

Their war was mismanaged from the top and won from the bottom…end of story.

Gauging success on “numbers of Germans killed” shows you what kind of war these people had to fight…ATTRITION…and for most of their units involved, with a few notable exceptions, it was the same ol’, UNSOPHISTICATED STEAMROLLER…the Red Army’s biggest problem in 1941 was INSUFFICIENT STAFF WORK that enabled very small groups of well directed Germans to overcome forces many times their size. Only as the staff work improved did the
Red Army start to not be surrounded at every turn (Zukhov claims that at Moscow in 1941, not a single Soviet unit was surrounded after Vyazma/Bryansk. Good staff work made the difference. Zukhov is also caustic in his criticisms of German claims to have been stopped by the Weather during operation Typhoon…both these claims of Zukhov’s are to be believed. The Red Army excelled at the defensive aspect, shown quite clearly by Typhoon’s stop/start execution…)

[ptimms]

Just out of interest isn’t the proximity fuse an American invention using a British idea. I’ve never seen German proximity ammo.

[ww11freak34]

maybe but i dont know if they could

[AirdefMike]

I think this question is one of the big “IFs” of WW2.

I’ve read that the lend-lease included alot of food for the soldiers of the Reddish Army of liberating workers and peasants which allowed SU to concentrate to produce something else instead.

Finnish soldiers when capturing Soviet supplies were surprised both positively and negatively finding US made canned goodies among the supplies (peaches, chocolate and such).

[aly_j]

@Hosenfield

If germany fought the war with only one front-

With no lend-lease to the russians-

No allied bombers attacking german factories-

No air wars/u-boat fighting to drain german resources for the kreigmarine and luftwaffe.

I think the germans would’ve taken russia.

yeah of cause the germans would of won the war
you vertually took the whole allies out of the war

[Chevan]

@flamethrowerguy

In my opinion it would have been crucial that Japan attacked the USSR from the east and keep these siberian elite-divisions away from the russian wetern front.
After all, I think, the country’s just too huge to be conquered by “old-fashioned” warfare and no countrys’ army is/was big enough to do so and secure the occupied areas.
The Red Army respectively Staslin learned from the faults in the early OP Barbarossa stage. Their “elastic” warfare was an important step to victory sinde they “sucked” the german armies deeper and deeper into Russia, over-stretching the supply lines.

Well i have to agree with you.
Actualy if the Japanes has attaced USSR in the 1941 from the East - the Soviets would have no single chance to stop German Barbarossa from the West.
But i have to add that it wasn’t just a Happy case for us.
The Japanes have been seriously beaten in the 1938 in Halkin-Gol so they have no illusions about Red Army professionalism( whatever this madman JapaneBomber repeats as parrot whole this thread. He’s bored me to death).
The Japane command refuse the Kwantung Army’s demand to attack USSR again in summer 1941 - they thought the Southern Asia should be more EASY taget to conquer.

[Chevan]

@AirdefMike

I think this question is one of the big “IFs” of WW2.

I’ve read that the lend-lease included alot of food for the soldiers of the Reddish Army of liberating workers and peasants which allowed SU to concentrate to produce something else instead.

True.
The British army also were getting the Lend-lise supplies, food and ets from USA.
American used the Australian/Canadian foods TOO.
Even GErman army actively used the Ukrainian grain and Chehoslovakian prodused wearpons.
What out of it?
Is the Reddish Army still piss off you?
How they quickly have re-captured the Vuborg;)Still can’t forget?

Finnish soldiers when capturing Soviet supplies were surprised both positively and negatively finding US made canned goodies among the supplies (peaches, chocolate and such).

Why negatively?
the american canned MEat so called “Tushenka”, produced with Soviet developed techniology, was wery excellent in any side.

[tankgeezer]

I think that it would have been devastating to Russia,but in the end they would have won. With the lack of preparedness for meeting General Winter, and the extreme length of supply lines, The German invasion of Russia would have ground to a halt if not by the first winter’s end, then certainly by the second.This, even with greater supply availability. Add to this the poor health of Hitler, and the fact that he was heavily drugged most of the time, would have diffused the German decision making process, and caused more disarray in their prosecution of the operation.
And considering the dogged determination, and resolve of the Russian people, (not necessarily their military leaders) I dont see the outcome being favorable for the Germans.

[B5N2KATE]

Chevan…No “professional” army would stand for the treatment dished out to thee Red Army and still exist as a fighting entity without a totalitarian regime to keep everybody fighting…

It’s a measure of the strength of the grip that Josef Stalin held over the people of Russia that he could hold onto power at all in the biggest crisis to face the Russian people in their long history…

I’m more than willing to admit that Barbarossa could not have been stoppped without these measures…but I’m not sure it was Red Army professionalism that was responsible for it…more like Stalinist Repression that guaranteed survival from a truly evil enemy…

And I suppose, therefore, there is at least that to be thankful for. Thankyou Uncle Joe…

[Nickdfresh]

@B5N2KATE

Chevan…No “professional” army would stand for the treatment dished out to thee Red Army and still exist as a fighting entity without a totalitarian regime to keep everybody fighting…

It’s a measure of the strength of the grip that Josef Stalin held over the people of Russia that he could hold onto power at all in the biggest crisis to face the Russian people in their long history…

…

Um, I think we can make an argument that totalitarianism was as much and enemy of optimal military efficiency as it was beneficial. Many of the top Red Army officers advocating “Deep Battle” were purged, and Stalin also ordered all Red Army units to stand down on the eve of Barbarossa. Thankfully some Soviet commanders had the good sense to hold convenient “live fire training exercises” in order to circumvent this idiotic order.

In fact, it was only when the top Red Army commanders like Zhukov learned to tell the NKVD and political officers to f***k themselves and ignored their bullying and intimidation that the Red Army gained a degree of autonomy from political domination…