Execution of civils in the East

World War II Russian Military
#41

Really they used the Middle-Age cruel decapitation in Yogoslavia? I/m in shock.

In that case, my dear Mr. Chevan, better do take some tranquilisers: I am assuring you - with a great sorrow in my soul! - that thus far you haven’t seen factual, true-life horrors of war at all. Sometimes it is almost unimaginable how fragile the boundary between humanity and beastiality is, and how human beings are capable of committing unimaginable crimes.:frowning:

Are these photo’s an execution by the troops of the Karsjager Division

No, my dear Mr. Ptimms – presented crime was commited by the SS Polizei-Gebirgsjäger Regiment No.18 in March of 1942, in the vicinity of the Slovenian village Renčah pri Gorici, and those pictures were taken by the unknown SS trooper. Snapshots were initially published in a book Mučeniška pot k svobodi : Ljubljana, Slovenski Knjižni Zavod, 1946. -135 pp.

To Mr.Librarian:The only problem is the partisans also not consider the Hague Convention when they stop a Red Cross train with full of injured soldier,sprinkled these unlucky peoples,and torch them.

Would you be so kind to present your sources, as well as some additonal factographic materials about that horrenduous occurrence, my dear Mr. Imi? You see, scientifically correct investigations, which are highly reccomanded in these cases as the only truly helpful solution for numerous historical disputes that ulcerate our common future, are highly demanding toward those means of factual attestation of different historical claims.

Furthermore, your allegations are in sharp contradiction with the factual historical events. You see, the People’s Liberation Army and Partisan Detachments of Yugoslavia were instructed from the very start of the uprising to take German prisoners of war and to treat them in full accordance with the regulations prescribed and approved by the Geneva Convention, because aforementioned procedure and subsequent negotiations between officially appointed representatives of the beligerant sides actually secured the official recognition of the NOVJ as a regular fighting force.

Combat operations between NOVJ and Wehrmacht during the First anti-Partisan Offensive in September of 1941, for example, resulted with 286 German POWs and a whole series of POW exchanges between Germans and Yugoslav Partisans during October of 1941, and they all concluded completely fruitfully - not a single German prisoner of war had been executed. Here you have certain pictorial evidence:

Captured German soldiers escorted by Yugoslav Partisans – Užice, October 1941

Succesfuly accomplished mutual exchange of POWs – Pilin Han near Posušje, Bosnia and Herzegovina, September 1942

Perhaps the best-known occurrence connected wit this pretty unknown issue is the case of the Major Arthur Strecker, commanding officer of the 2nd Battalion, 738th Infantry regiment, 718th Infantry Division of theWehrmacht, captured during operation Weiss in Bosnia on May 4th, 1943.

Major Arthur Strecker, accompanied by young Partisans as a prisoner of war – May 4th, 1943

He and 24 further German soldiers were treated in full accordance with the International law, and offered for official exchange for certain number of captured members of the Partisan forces. From the NOVJ side negotiations were led by Vladimir Velebit, Milovan Đilas and Koča Popovic, while German side was represented by Hans Ott, General der Infanterie Edmund Glaise von Horstenau and partly by General Benignus Dippold from the 717th Infantry division of the Wehrmacht. Talks were held in Gornji Vakuf, Sarajevo and Zagreb. All prisoners were successfully exchanged.

Major Strecker as a POW during the completely civilized conversation with the Partisan commanders

Certain highly dependable informations about these POWs exchanges are available in a book Geschichte der deutschen Kriegsgfangenen des Zweiten Weltkrieges 1941-1949, BAND I/1, p.80-87.

Tough pictures

Really, my dear Mr. Imi? Well, in that case please pay special attention to those specific facial expressions, that this time really are a little bit more visible than before. After that, be so kind and tell me what kind of a emotional feeling is actually in attendance there?

Execution of the captured Partisan by decapitation – No.3

Your answer will be highly essential for the next part of our mutual conversation.

In the meantime, as always – all the best.

#42

Librarian:
okay,that’s my opinion,and that is yours.
also I remember a name called,József Grassy hungarian waffen ss gruppenführer executed,exactly hang up and cut off,bury over his neck when his alive,and make a horse grand prix into his head.
Thats called humanity isn’t it?

#43

You pick a poor target for your sympathy. This particular specimen was convicted by both Hungary (twice, in 1943 and postwar) and Yugoslavia of war crimes in relation to actions in Yugoslavia (specifically the massacre of mainly Serbian and Jewish civilians - men, women and children - in southern Bačka during 1942).
Frankly he appears to have been a deeply unpleasant specimen of humanity who richly deserved everything which happened to him. You’ll be defending Dirlewanger or Höss next…

#44

This has evolved in the most vomitive topic ever.

#45

A long, long time ago I was shocked by what I recall looking almost like a studio picture of a uniformed Yugoslav holding the severed head of a Yugoslav enemy during WWII, which was probably picture 1244 here - Warning - B&W and colour images of other badly mutilated bodies from WWII and 1990s in link http://sokolac.slavicnet.com/sokolac/sokolac_history2_forum.html

It’s not a unique photo of a Yugoslav trophy head held by other Yugoslavs, as this other photo demonstrates http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/priest.html

As the first link indicates, decapitation in the former Yugoslavia was still practised in the 1990s, as it is among some Muslim terrorists elsewhere today.

I’m with PK about this subject being nauseating, but as Librarian said there’s a fine line between humanity and bestiality and it demonstrates how humans are capable of committing unimaginable crimes. I don’t see how anyone can glory in defiling and humiliating a corpse, but a significant part of the human race has and still will if it gets the chance.

#46

Seems like beheading has a long tradition on the Balkans…incomprehensible that incidents like these can happen in the last decade of the 20th century. At least in Europe…

#47

Beheading was the most common form of execution in Germany for civil offences in most Länder until the abolition of capital punishment in 1949, and it was mostly carried out with the German version of the guillotine, the Fallbeil (literally “falling axe”.)

The French last used the guillotine in 1977, and executed publicly until 1939.

And the Spanish last used the garrotte in the mid-70s.

#48

József Grassy executed undeserving,and morbid style,and if we speak about Hague convention,or brutality,this is brutality.
I not defend him,his also a sinner murder of many innocent,but the hungarian army march in to his ancient land,the partisans are shoot the hungarian soldiers under the parade,from the rooftops,under the tiles.
This isn’t a really straight thing.
I haven’t got any photo or evidence the attack of the german red cross train,I read this story in a old book.
Maybe someone in this forum know the story.
I’m not a anti partisan member,but the soldiers also not like the partisans because they are do cruel things,with the captured soldiers,interrogate and torture them.
Of course that is not a good reason to cut someone head with a axe.
Many peoples have bad minds about the war,or murders without photo or evidence but therefrom these things are occured,if you believe or not.
I don’t want hurt anybody feelings,but if we search faliures,we found both side.
I think when I hate a power structure,or someone try to occupy my country I try to join the opponent army,and fight in uniform.
Have a nice day.

#49

Man Of Stoat:I saw a document film,and the narrator say when you are executed with a guillotine,you saw what happening after,the execution,the information is still move to the brain a few seconds.
Interesting,but no one can tell,this is true or false…

#50

The fact that they can happen in Europe within the last fifteen or so years shows that there is nothing special about Europe that won’t stop it, or anywhere else, descending again into the savagery which has been indicated in this thread.

Every country has its own elements ready to staff concentration camps and execution squads.

It requires only a modest relaxation in the standards and controls of civil society to let the monsters reign.

#51

Some extracts form the interview with Leonid Bernstein, the comander of a partisan brigade “Pozharsky”. This was one of the most successful partisan brigades in the whole Soviet partisan movement during WW2 with some rather impudent and successful operations against Wermacht.
His interview in Russian here - http://www.iremember.ru/content/view/568/24/ - an extraordinary story!
And some info in English here: “Undisputed Heroes. Leonid Bernstein: The Story of a Jewish Fighter”


Question:
Did Germqans try to infiltrate the brigade?

Bernstein:
All the time.
…
There was an Abwehr school in Slavuta where special agents were trained. Their task was to infiltrate the partisan movement and to eliminate their heads and officers.
…
And then I told him: “Comrade, here a clean paper sheet and a pencil. Write down your autobiography and what happened to you during the war time. Here is some food and some boos, if you wish. I will go get some sleep.”
And I left the dug-out. I ordered four guards on each side of the dug-out and warned them if the “guest” escapes I personally would shoot the “sleeping guard”!
But in my heart I still had some doubts, what if all the worries are for nothing, maybe the guy had difficult life and just is not comfortable to tell everything.

I visited him in the morning. The paper sheet was untouched. The food and the spirit are on the table - he did not touch them. Clear, he did not eat anything because he was afraid to be poisoned.

Then I straightly tell him: “You, my dear friend, a German spy. We will have to get rid of you!” And he answered in such manner that all my doubts in his guilt evaporated, were blown away like dust on the wind. He tried to recruit me to work for German intelligence service, offered huge amounts of money, German citizenship and high position in police. All if I help him to escape and give my brigade into German hands. He turned out to be a German, but could speak Russian without even a sign of accent.

He, poor soul. did not even imagine that he is offering all this not to the cheif of staf Vasiliev [Vasiliev - Bernstin’s undercover name in partisans], but to a Jew, Lieutenant Bernstein.
I called for Mr.Goriachiy and informed him “what kind of bird came to our nest”.
Goriachy listened carefully and looked at the German, who sat with a stone face, and said - “Write him off!” Came our brigade’s “specialist in writing people off”, took the agent to the nearest forest, in to the last venture.
But the “specialist” worked exclusively by dagger. Apparently he was no quick enough and the agent, though wounded, managed to escape. But such fruit we could let go. We arranged area sweep. And we found him in one of the villages. One old woman said: “Sons, there is a wounded partisan in my house. He was wounded by Germans.” We came in and there is our old friend. So we just shot.
And the “specialist” got sevier reprimand and warning.

Question:
Such “specialists”… was there some kind od selection on this position or any volunteer could do that?

Bernstein:
Your question is inappropriate, if not to say “outright stupid”.
The short answer: the commander assigned one to such “position”.
By far not every one could do that. Even the experienced partisans who killed tens of Germans and Police men with their rifle could kill unarmed enemy or a traitor with a knife. It is not even a hand fight… To kill a man with a knife - a rear quality, which requires skill and steel nerves. And, by the way, such “handy men” were not really ahead in real battle. Not always were they the best people…

But the partisan or civil war does not know mercy. In 1944 one of our partisan was caught by the Polish AK fighters. He was tortured. They cut his fingers one by one with an axe. But the partisan kept silence.
The Poles then hanged him with head down and left him behind thinking that he would just die there. But he was discovered by some herdsmen.

I ordered my brigade to find the monsters. We got them alive. Brought to our camp. I call the partisan to whoom they cut fingers and ask - Are these the people who hurt you? - Yes. - Here is an axe. Shred them. - I can not. - You have to be able!
But he could not do it…
But there were some volunteers. We returned one of those monster back alive to the Polish gang… a shortened version of him… to tell them how we can take vengeance. After that those AK people keept miles away from us.

to be continued…

#52

Egorka:“But the partisan or civil war does not know mercy.”
That is I want to reveal,any side have peoples who not know mercy,and this gonna start a never ending battle,and this battle is more brutish,because the opponent sides expose each other.

#53

So what? The Hague convention exists only to provide a framework of laws within which a war may be fought and it’s worst excesses blunted, and a set of rules by which the treatment of PoWs may be regulated. It - explicitly - does not apply to the punishment of convicted criminals such as Grassy. Execution is by it’s very nature a brutal and violent business. As for undeserving, given his crimes I find it very hard indeed to find any sympathy whatsoever for him.

B*llocks are you not defending him. You’re trying to whip up sympathy for a mass murderer of women and children by saying that his execution wasn’t a very pleasant experience. Boo fricking hoo.
As far as the Partisans firing from cover, that’s a total canard as well. The last time I’m aware of that a halfway competent army dressed up in bright colours and stood out on the field of battle saying “shoot me, please” was the British Army in the Boer war. The use of camouflage is an ancient art, and one recognised as entirely legitimate in the Hage conventions.
Furthermore, the Hungarians may have been invading areas once part of Hungary when they entered Yugoslavia, but that’s got naff all to do with anything. The English once owned Bordeaux, but you don’t see us claiming the place is ours do you? Furthermore, the 1907 Hague convention specifically protects the civil populace when it takes up arms spontaneously against an invading army.

So in other words you have no evidence whatsoever, and for all we know you (or someone else) could have made the whole thing up. Riiight.
The whole story makes about as much sense as the atrocity stories from Belgium about the “Bestial Hun” in 1914 in any case.

Uh huh. Evidence? Soldiers rarely like their opponents, something about trying to kill each other tends to engender that sort of feeling.

Very, very few Yugoslavs had the option of joining a force equivalent to the Free French. So what would your plan B be?

#54

Here is the relevant part of the Hague convention:

Annex to the Convention
REGULATIONS RESPECTING THE LAWS AND CUSTOMS
OF WAR ON LAND
SECTION I
ON BELLIGERENTS

CHAPTER I
The Qualifications of Belligerents

Article 1.
The laws, rights, and duties of war apply not only to armies, but also to militia and volunteer corps fulfilling the following conditions:[ul]
[li]To be commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;[/li]> [li]To have a fixed distinctive emblem recognizable at a distance;[/li]> [li]To carry arms openly; and[/li]> [li]To conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.[/li]> [/ul]
In countries where militia or volunteer corps constitute the army, or form part of it, they are included under the denomination “army.”

Art. 2.
The inhabitants of a territory which has not been occupied, who, on the approach of the enemy, spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading troops without having had time to organize themselves in accordance with Article 1, shall be regarded as belligerents if they carry arms openly and if they respect the laws and customs of war.

Art. 3.
The armed forces of the belligerent parties may consist of combatants and non-combatants. In the case of capture by the enemy, both have a right to be treated as prisoners of war.

Please observe that the four conditions in the Article 1 are ALL to be met in otrder for militia or volunteers to qualify as belligerents.
But in fact there was problem with fulfilling all of the conditions, especially 2nd, 3rd and 4th.
So from an ordinary Wehrmacht soldier point of view the partisans were bandits. And so were often called in the letters home, for example.
To my mind a big portion of partisans would be considered to be non billigerents according to the Hauge convention.

Note that Article 2 does allow for some of the conditions to be ommited, but ONLY for the “the inhabitants of a territory which has not been occupied” yet.
So Article 2 can not be used for the period considerably after the territory has been under occupation.

Saying all this brings me to my point: The Conventions in general are not a yardstick of moral and justice.
Tough without them it would be even worse…

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by imi View Post
I’m not a anti partisan member,but the soldiers also not like the partisans because they are do cruel things,with the captured soldiers,interrogate and torture them.

Uh huh. Evidence? Soldiers rarely like their opponents, something about trying to kill each other tends to engender that sort of feeling.[/QUOTE]
Evidance? There is plenty of partisan’s accounts where they say that they almost never took Germans and Germnan collaborators prisoners. And according to the accounts bullets were spared while execution was going on. There were used other execution means…

#55

Bit of a mixture - those in Yugoslavia tended to fight as almost a regular army, while those in Russia were more irregular. Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya (previously mentioned in this thread) for instance appears to have been in civilian clothes when she carried out her attack, and thus would not have been eligible for protection under the Hague convention.
One important point though - while Hague 1907 doesn’t mention it, Geneva 1949 specifically states that if there is any doubt as to the status of a prisoner then a “competent tribunal” should determine it and they must be treated as PoWs until this takes place. This is unlikely to be totally new law, and probably represents the accepted practice for most countries immediately prior to WW2.

#56

As for nowadays treatment of POW’s you could watch the link I’ll add. It’s from the chechen-russian war (first or second I don’t know) and you’ll see that not much improved since WW2 in interrogating and general treatment of POW’s.

I just want to warn every single one of you guys before you choose to watch it (if you don't know it yet). Personally I gotta say, it's the worst thing I ever saw in my life (and I've seen a lot of crap out of occupational reasons). Call me a wimp but after I watched it for the first (and only) time I wasn't able to sleep for hours.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=203_1211367584

#57

Did a f…ng Hauge convention permit to treat the POWs as a subhumans only becouse they were not in the uniform?
OR for instance is the any resistance( even passive) was determined as a “terrorism” by convention?
Occupant executed even family members of partisans.We have a lot of facts of it.

#58

Not quite. The Hague convention only covered people in the three classes mentioned by Egorka above (his post is largely a direct quote from the Hague convention). It doesn’t say that PoWs can be treated as subhumans because they aren’t in uniform - rather it simply doesn’t provide protection to such people. Their treatment is then at the discretion of the power which captured them.

#59

In no way Hauge convention allow for mistreatment of anyone. What it baisicly sais is that a captured anemy soldier can not be punished by the inanyway for killing his enemy if it was done according to customs of war.

But the question is what to do with people who does not quialify as a legitimate enemy?
That is where it is not clear: are partisans bandits or patriots?
IMO there is not a clear answer. It is obvious that NOT everyone who went to the forest with a gun was a partisan in true sense. Lots and lots of them were just criminals who would steal, robe and rape. As one of the partisan said: “The human life in the forest was not worth a dime.”
Needless to say that after the war those shady individuals were all calling themself partisans.

The issues about partisans are very controvercial.

The matter of hostages is a slightly different matter. Becasue as I understand the German regulations regarding “special character” of the Eastern front were either before 22 of June 1941 or in the first few months of war, when the partisan movement was still very-very weak.
So the partisan’s brutality was not the initial drive for some of the criminal directives of OKW.

#60

pdf27:my answers
1.I don’t think so a official negotation aftermath is a good thing this style of execution.That was not execution,more than unnecessary brutality.
2.I don’t defend peoples,who murdered child’s,womans,old’s or anybody,who killing innocents.József Grassy was hungarian,and I think every people,from every nations stand out his owns.
I not try to clean this name,because is dirty from innocents blood,he was earned the death sentence,but I try to demonstrate this style of execution was unnecessary,in a official action at law.
When you deliver a judgement,try to be different from guys like Grassy,when you aren’t try,you be the same.
3. Okay I give up,but these peoples,are died with extra suffering that’s a fact,and I think God not appreciate this,and isn’t better any side.
4.My “evidence” is died a few years before,he was tell me,the soldiers are hate the partisans they make traps,make brutal interrogations for the soldiers and Egorka was right,because the partisans isn’t like too much capturing pows,because the pows only setback the partisans.
5.That Yugoslavians who join,are straight guys.I think be a partisan a heroic thing because they fight for liberty,but also a little shifty.
Mixing with civilians,watch out the enemy positions and supply,like a spy.
A few men maybe win a battle,but isn’t a war.
And the end as usual the innocent civilians pay for this.