Execution of civils in the East

World War II Russian Military
#121

As I posted, anything was possible in the East, where massive atrocities were committed by all sides. But although the Germans made great propaganda value of the Katyn massacre of Polish POW’s by the NKVD, it was, despite Russian denials for 45 years, ‘‘proven’’ to be true.

Yep, Hitler was continuing to use his lying propaganda ploy like he did in the Sudetenland, that thousands of Germans were being killed, trying to justify his invasion plans.
But he wasn’t satisfied with those lies, he went one better with the pathetic Gleiwitz incident.

Interesting story. Only problem with it is that I have Clarke’s book, “Barbarossa” and it doesn’t say anything at all about Poles shooting prisoners like you describe.

The only shooting of German POW’s in the book is by Russians on page 336, quote…’‘Totenkopf was still on its own, and suffered from the Russian propensity to kill all prisoners wearing its insignia.’’

So until some collaborating ‘‘proof’’ comes to light, I for one wouldn’t condemn the Poles of those massacres in '39, on that story at least…the same as I wouldn’t have condemned the Russians about Katyn on Nazi say so, until it was proven.

#122

Chevan, could you give us some more info about the source?
Because as far as I know the city of Danzig (polish: Gdansk) from 15.11.1920 was a independent quasi-state with 98% german population, and it was not under polish control.
Better search the Russian archives for some info about events which took place in Danzig in 1945 after the Red Army entered the city…

#123

My guess is that Chevan is talking about the expultion of the Germans after the WWII.

#124

But why then , the other “bolshevics crimes” were not proven?
If GErmans suffer NOT from the Red Army- why we shall ignore those facts?
Especially if you write the everything was possible in the East.

Yep, Hitler was continuing to use his lying propaganda ploy like he did in the Sudetenland, that thousands of Germans were being killed, trying to justify his invasion plans.
But he wasn’t satisfied with those lies, he went one better with the pathetic Gleiwitz incident.

true.
But Goebbels propogand also lie about many facts , sometimes simply Cynical OVERESTIMATING the figures of victims.
For instance he declard that Allies mass have killed 250 000 of civils in Dresden fro 13 hours.
We know the real victims were much lesser, but is the “Goebbels lie” can make to dany Dresden firebombing ?

Interesting story. Only problem with it is that I have Clarke’s book, “Barbarossa” and it doesn’t say anything at all about Poles shooting prisoners like you describe.

Nothing is problem.
Sorry i have confused the Barbarossa with A.Beevor book “Berlin The Downfall 1945”:slight_smile:
My typo
Unfortinatelly i cant find his book in English in Internet.
So i will use the quotes from the copy ,published in Russia…
A.Beevor “Berlin The Downfall 1945”.
Chapter 5 :Rush to Oder"
Page 71.
http://militera.lib.ru/research/beevor2/

Желание поляков отомстить было настолько велико, что это стало даже вредить сбору разведывательной информации. Начальник управления НКВД 1-го Белорусского фронта Серов жаловался Берии, что солдаты 1-й армии Войска Польского относятся к немецким военнослужащим особенно жестоко{157}. Он докладывал, что захваченные немецкие пленные часто не доходят до места сбора. Их расстреливают по дороге. Например, на участке 2-го стрелкового полка 1-й стрелковой дивизии поляками были взяты в плен восемьдесят германских солдат, но только двое из них добрались до штаба. Всех остальных убили в пути. После того как эти двое счастливчиков были допрошены полковым начальством, их отправили в разведотдел. Но до него они так и не дошли. Их также расстреляли неподалеку от штаба

…
The Polish will of revenge to GErmans was such great - that it getting to bother to take the information from Germans pows.
The CHief of NKVD of 1-belorusshian front Cerov, complained to Beria, that soldiers of 1-Polish Army ( that fought with Red Army) treat the GErmans pows with senseless cruelty. He reported that the cuptured Germans pows very often don’t reach the pows camps- the poles simply shoted them all.
For instance in 2-rifle regiment of 1- polish division there were cuptured the 80 germans pows, but ONLY two of them have arrived to the headquarters The rest have been killed in a way.After the cross-examination, they both have been sended to the Army intelligence department for the next talks. But they haven’t reached it, they have been shoted right near the hearquarters by poles.

You can check it in your English copy of Beevor, if you have it.
As i’ve wrote , i’ve read this story in memours of Russuan veterans ( forgot his name). He also described tghis case with Polish 1-Army in more interesting details.
BTW sorry i wos wrong about 30 Germans pows- there actualy have been 80 executed.
So i think it can be considered as the Military crime, commited by the Poles that simular to the Malmedy massacre.( senseless mass execution of Allies POWs by Germans)
But of course nobody in Red Army did not even guessed to blame poles for that cruelty.
The most of our soldiers saw what GErmans have commited in Poland.
But though:)
BTW you have a good habit to check the sources:mrgreen:

So until some collaborating ‘‘proof’’ comes to light, I for one wouldn’t condemn the Poles of those massacres in '39, on that story at least…the same as I wouldn’t have condemned the Russians about Katyn on Nazi say so, until it was proven.

I don’t even mind to condemn the poles for supposed MAssacres of GErmans civils in 1939 as this site has mentioned. But for sake of historical true, we can’t simply forget about it, don’t we?

#125

Well there were a few point that the German civils have been under opresion.
Hitler used if in his Anti-Polish propogand, so they are quite disputable. However the certain events took place of course.

Better search the Russian archives for some info about events which took place in Danzig in 1945 after the Red Army entered the city…

Do you mean the Red Army behaviour or the Deportations of Germans population of Danzig that was indeed the pure ethnical clearing commited by Polish authorities since 1945?

#126

Beever’s book was the first time I’d seen the full scale of the atrocities by the Red Army in Germany.

Beaver’s book featured here…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2002/may/01/news.features11

Natalya Gesse, a close friend of the scientist Andrei Sakharov, had observed the Red Army in action in 1945 as a Soviet war correspondent. “The Russian soldiers were raping every German female from eight to eighty,” she recounted later. “It was an army of rapists.”

Calls to avenge the Motherland, violated by the Wehrmacht’s invasion, had given the idea that almost any cruelty would be allowed.

The novelist Vasily Grossman, a war correspondent attached to the invading Red Army, soon discovered that rape victims were not just Germans. Polish women also suffered. So did young Russian, Belorussian and Ukrainian women who had been sent back to Germany by the Wehrmacht for slave labour.

Nuns, young girls, old women, pregnant women and mothers who had just given birth were all raped without pity.

Beria and Stalin, back in Moscow, knew perfectly well what was going on from a number of detailed reports. One stated that “many Germans declare that all German women in East Prussia who stayed behind were raped by Red Army soldiers”. Numerous examples of gang rape were given - “girls under 18 and old women included”.

“Red Army soldiers don’t believe in ‘individual liaisons’ with German women,” wrote the playwright Zakhar Agranenko in his diary when serving as an officer of marine infantry in East Prussia. “Nine, ten, twelve men at a time - they rape them on a collective basis.”

Estimates of rape victims from the city’s two main hospitals ranged from 95,000 to 130,000. One doctor deduced that out of approximately 100,000 women raped in the city, some 10,000 died as a result, mostly from suicide. The death rate was thought to have been much higher among the 1.4 million estimated victims in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia. Altogether at least two million German women are thought to have been raped, and a substantial minority, if not a majority, appear to have suffered multiple rape.

Seen a few brief references to it in other books before, such as Erickson in ‘‘The Road to Berlin’’ saying ''successive Soviet combat echelons moved through killing and looting at will… a slur and stain on Slav honour…

#127

So i hope now, you will not deny the episode in Beevor.s book when he described the mass killing of GErmans POWs by poles in 1945.
Well, so as i said , if the killing and raping of GErmans were real- why we shall dany the possible fact of raping and massacres the GErmans in 1939 on polish territory.

#128

Only thing I denied [correctly] was that Clarke didn’t write it.

You corrected your mistake, so, no problems.

Can’t see the conection between the Russian attrocities in Germany, which are well documented, with that one post of what the Poles are accused of in '39, which has a possible link to Nazi propaganda, the only thing about it I can find, is on a neo Nazi site, but if you have some supportive info i’d be interested in seeing it.

#129

Well i doubt this is nazis site that we are talking about.
There a lot of Jewish massacres are documented - so we can know for sure - this i sn ot pro-nazi site…
hardly we can call the described events in Poland '39 as link to Nazi propogand.
But this is very amazing new information for me, that i did n’t even guess about.Will try to find out more …

#130

Hi Librarian,

I was moved by this story. And I looked a bit into it.
Here is more info about Josepf Schultz:
[ol]
[li]http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3247744&postcount=66[/li][li]http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3250588&postcount=69[/li][/ol]

But is there more to it?
Librarian, do you have better photage of the two mentioned monuments?
Were those all partisans or some of them were civil hostages?

#131

This is really an amazing, touching story. I was very impressed when I read about it here a couple of months ago.
Then I encountered the story once again in one of my books and it indeed told the story differently - just like in the links that Egorka posted:

“It is alleged that german soldier Josef Schulz refused to be involved in the execution of yugoslavian civilians and therefore was murdered together with the Yugoslavs by his Wehrmacht comrades on July 20, 1941. As an example for a “good German” Belgrad established a memorial for Schulz in the village of Vrncani.
As a matter of fact Josef Schulz was murdered by Tito-partisans on July 19, 1941 in close distance to the village of Smederevska Palanka. On July 20, 1941, the day when the partisans were shot - according to internationally effective law of warfare- the report of his death one day before was already transmitted. These circumstances of the case were confirmed in 1981 by Senior Prosecutor Rückerl of the Ludwigsburg Central Office of Prosecution of NS war crimes. Surveyors of the military archives at Freiburg found out about the imposture of the alleged self-sacrifice of the soldier Schulz already in 1972. It can not be discovered how this legend arose. However it is macaber to say after someone who was murdered by partisans, that he had himself shot in benefit of his murderers.”

Just thought it was interesting to quote this source. (“Ehrenbuch des deutschen Soldaten” by W. Dahl)

#132

But is there more to it?

Yes, my dear Mr. Egorka – there is much more to it.

The opinion that the so-called contemporary history is not a scientific discipline unfortunately still prevails in the historical science. Regrettably, it is actually considered as a variant of politicology. Basically, there are two basic reasons for this critical understanding. The first is that the ruling circles do not like the criticism by the public, in spite of the development of the formal democracy. The second reason is that certain archives are still under sturdy locks.

Fortunately, these sad examples of rationally backed fixation are to be confronted with a scientific method, both when establishment of the number of victims and the establishment of the whole factual history is in question.

Former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia providentially acted upon all prescribed scientific recommendations within the boundaries of anthropology, post-mortem forensic investigation, archivist inquiry in both domestic and foreign archives. Numerous archeological, anthropological, pedographic and forensic investigations attempting to establish the exact number and factual names of the people killed took place on several occasions on the territory of the SFRJ, but the data gathered by means of these scientific disciplines have been used to a very little extent so far.

In 1947 the State Commision for Establishment of the Crimes Commited by the Occupier and His Collaborators collected and preserved numerous photographs, facsimiles, documents and forensic findings, thus acknowledging the killing carried out over Serbs, Croats, Slovenians, Macedonians, Albanians, Jews, Gypsies, Germans, Hungarians and Italians, disregarding their sex and age. In this particular case, original German photographs and facsimiles of the German documents are supplementing previously mentioned claim that Mr. Josef Schulz was executed on the spot in vicinity of the Smederevska Palanka (Orahovac) on July 20th, 1941. However, 16 individually different forensic remnants of the victims (amongst them only 9 partisans!) were fortunately found upon excavation and reburial – and amongst them is the mandibula of late Mr. Schulz.

The State Commision for Establishment of Crimes Commited by the Occupier and His Collaborators – Forensic Item No. 21.068 – Limbus alveolaris et Juga alveolaria of Mr. Josef Schulz

Being in possession of the standard forensic methods based upon Polymerase chain reaction, DNA analysis of the remnants is therefore absolutely available for identification of human remains from mass graves. DNA of all those fortunately preserved remnants is completely isolable by usage of standard phenol-chloroform-isoamyl alcohol extraction.

Although decalcification and repurification surely will be necessary prior to the extraction to overcome inhibition of amplification process, different systems for DNA quantification and amplification (AluQuant, short tandem repeats (STR), Y chromosome STRs, and mitochondrial DNA [mtDNA] sequence-specific oligonucleotide (SSO) probes are completely obtainable for the final solution of this historical case.

I am completely convinced that numerous and distinguished experts of the Bundeskriminalamt Wiesbaden, FBI Crime Laboratory Division and The Russian Centre for Forensic Medicine will be able to sustain official findings of their Yugoslav colleagues.

In the meantime, I shall take the liberty to present a number of other photographical proofs connected with our main theme in this thread.

Factographic example of the sadistic butchery committed by the members of the 188. Reserve Gebirgs Division of the Wehrmacht (188th Reserve Mountain Division). Photo taken by unknown German soldier.

Five-point star carved by bayonet into the face of captured partisan major Jože Mirtić – village of Lokve, Slovenia, 11. october 1944. (DKZUZONP - N. Br.877-45)

Photographic confirmation of the pretty forgotten and suppressed attitude of the Wehrmacht towards Russians that served as a philosophical and moral excuse for atrocities:

Der Russe muß sterben, damit wir leben - Die stramme 6 Kompanie (The Russian must die, for this reason we live - The rugged 6th company)

Perhaps the Russian Federal Archive has various additional informations about this case?

#133

Librarian,

Where does the photo of Joseph’s remains come from? From a book?

You also mention that among 16 executed Yogoslavians only 9 were partisans. Does this info come from the same source as the photograph?

Thank in advance!

#134

All above presented informations are originating from different half-forgotten books, my dear Mr. Egorka. :slight_smile:

Presented photo derives from a book “Demokratska federativna Jugoslavija – Državna komisija za utvrđivanje zločina okupatora i njihovih pomagača – Knjiga br. 3 – Zločini okupatora u Srbiji; Sveska 2”. - Beograd, 1948.

All other informations about the aforesaid occurence, with some additional captured German photos, are available in publication “Jugoslavija u Drugom svetskom ratu” by Petar Brajović. – (Novinsko-izdavačko i grafičko preduzeće ‘Borba’) . – Beograd, 1977.

Do you need anything else, my dear Mr. Egorka? If so, just give me a whistle. :!:

#135

Librarian,

Is it possible to get a scan of the pages where Schultz is mentioned from the book “Demokratska federativna Jugoslavija – Državna komisija za utvrđivanje zločina okupatora i njihovih pomagača – Knjiga br. 3 – Zločini okupatora u Srbiji; Sveska 2”. - Beograd, 1948.???

:slight_smile:
I know you can do wonders when it comes to books… :slight_smile:

#136

Librarian,

I found this on Internet: http://vbcg.cnb.cg.ac.yu/scripts/cobiss?ukaz=DISP&id=1157372280649452&fmt=11&rec=1&sid=1
Is this the book you reffered to?

Card:

JUGOSLAVIJA. Državna komisija za utvrđivanje zločina okupatora i
 njihovih pomagača iz Drugog svetskog rata
   Dokumenti iz istorije Jugoslavije / Državna komisija za utvrđivanje
zločina okupatora i njegovih pomagača iz drugog svetskog rata ; priredili
Miodrag Đ. Zečević i Jovan P. Popović. - Beograd : Arhiv Jugoslavije :
Printer Komerc, 1999-. - Knj. <1-4> : ilustr. ; 24 cm

Dosadašnji sadržaj:
T. 3 : propisi, saopštenja, odluke i spiskovi pripadnika okupacionih snaga
Italije, Bugarske i neokupacionih naroda Jugoslavije koje je državna
komisija proglasila za ratne zločince i spiskovi lica koje je Komisija
Ujedinjenih nacija proglasila za ratne zločince za zločine izvršene u
Jugoslaviji . - 1999 (Beograd : Printer komerc). - 720 str. - Tiraž 500. -
Predgovor / priređivači: 7-15.
T. 4 : saopštenja,odluke i spiskovi pripadnika okupacionih snaga Nemačke i
Mađarske koje je Državna komisija proglasila za ratne zločince i spiskove
licakoje je Komisija Ujedinjenih nacija proglasila za ratne zločince ili
osumnjičila za zločine vršene u Jugoslaviji . - 2000 (Zemun : Kuća štampe)
. - 959 str. - Tiraž 500.
(Broš.)

940.540.56(497.1)(093.2)
949.71"1941/1945"(093.2)
940.53(497.1)-058.55(093.2)

COBISS.CG-ID 5780240
#137

You will forgive me for my short absence, my dear Mr. Egorka, but I was unfortunately beleaguered with my proffesional obligations (two young doctorands on my back + a coursed influenza!), but finally I do have some spare time, so here we go!

Is this the book you reffered to?

No, my dear Mr Egorka. This is the book I am talking about. The front page with a direct, previously presented title was, alas, rebinded in 1967.

Original book connected with our current theme

However, as my personal friend you will be privileged with the very best, original materials, otherwise available only to members of the scientific community, and contained in specialized libraries with limited right of entry. :wink:

Is it possible to get a scan of the pages where Schultz is mentioned

Of course, my dear Mr. Egorka. Although I think that you surely will be dissapointed to a certain extent. You see, in those times Mr. Schulz was known only as a “The young man, German soldier, who refused to fire into binded people, found himself in a couple of moments amongst communists of Palanka, in front of a haystack. Song and shouts devoted to the Communist party, Red Army and Soviet Union were abrupted by a salvo.” (Младић, немачки војник, који је одбио да пуца у везане људе пред собом, нашао се за неколико тренутака међу паланачким комунистима испред сламе. Песму и поклике Комунистичкој партији, Црвеној армији и Совјетском Савезу прекинуо је плотун.)

Page about tragic occurrence in Smederevska Palanka - 1

Page about tragic occurrence in Smederevska Palanka – 2

And finally an additional snapshot with reference to the incidence – with a precise description of the place, clearly presented date and an explanation about factual victims:

Smederevska Palanka – execution of captured partisans and local non-combatant communists

This snapshot was taken before that previously presented one with Mr. Schulz in attendance.

Do you have any further wishes, my dear Mr. Egorka? :smiley:

#138

Good luck with all of your problems! :slight_smile:

Of course, my dear Mr. Egorka. Although I think that you surely will be dissapointed to a certain extent. You see, in those times Mr. Schulz was known only as a “The young man, German soldier, who refused to fire into binded people, found himself in a couple of moments amongst communists of Palanka, in front of a haystack. Song and shouts devoted to the Communist party, Red Army and Soviet Union were abrupted by a salvo.” (Младић, немачки војник, који је одбио да пуца у везане људе пред собом, нашао се за неколико тренутака међу паланачким комунистима испред сламе. Песму и поклике Комунистичкој партији, Црвеној армији и Совјетском Савезу прекинуо је плотун.)

Thanks for the scans!
As you know there is opinion that the story about a german private J.Schultz denying order and being executed wuth partisans is forged.
I can try to trsanslate a German article on this (from an orher Russian translation), but, unfortunately, I have no time right now for that.
The thing is that there fere arguments against this story as presented in your post previously.

In any case this incident may be split into two sub issues.
[ol]
[li]Did a young german soldier do it?
[/li][li]If yes, then was it J.Schultz?
[/li][/ol]
The second question is answered negatively by the Schultz’s platoon mates who said that Schultz was killed the night before. The first time J.Schultz’s name was used in connection to the execution event on the 20 of July 1941 in Smederevska Palanka was in 1972, i.e. some 30 years after the event took place.

But IMHO, it is not the most important issue here. The most important is the first question. It is not an easy one to answer, as my understanding is that German papers speak nothing of such incidenet at that time in 714th infantry division of Wehrmacht. There are also othe contre-arguments.

This might be a story twisted for some politico-propagandistic purposes - to show a “good German” in WW2 Yugoslavia. But it is not very clear either. Because there were already a number of such examples that could be used for the purpose - the German communists Soldiers that run over to partisans. It is not very clear why there was need to make one more up when there was plenty real ones to choose from.

This brings me to a question: What is the factual ground for the cited by you passage?
The book of 1948 speaks of a “young German soldier”. But based on what? Does the source provide info on how those facts were recorded?

#139

This brings me to a question: What is the factual ground for the cited by you passage? The book of 1948 speaks of a “young German soldier”. But based on what?

Based upon signed testimonials of the Serbian witnesses, preserved photographs, as well as post-mortem leftovers - including not only human bones, but also parts of the German uniform and infantry equipment, discovered on the very spot of the previously mentioned executions, and mixed up with mortal remains of the Serbian patriots. Fortunately, all those leftovers are completely preserved in an hermetically sealed spelter coffin that was built in a concrete basement of the commemorative monument.

All original documents, photos, records, etc. connected with this case are completely available in a archival box No. 21897, located at Institut za izučavanje radničkog pokreta Srbije (Center for the Study of the Workers Movement of Serbia). Unfortunately, I think that your personal visit will be necessary.

BTW: do you have, by any chance, a copy, or photo of the Divisional diaries of the German 704th and 714th Infantry division for the 19 th and 20th of July, 1941? As well as those signed testimonials of the Germans soldiers connected with the case? You know, I am deeply interested for their names, as well as for the names of all active NCOs who were in direct charge on that very day.

As a former First Assistant to the District Attorney I think that I will be able to examine their factual role in this case… in a significantly innovative way. But for those strictly historical purposes I desperately do need those German documents. Could you provide those documents for me, my dear Mr. Egorka? If you can - thank you in advance. Just post them here and dont worry – everything else will be my job!

As always – all the best! :slight_smile:

#140

Unfortunately, I am no help on this one… :frowning:
But maybe Flamethrowerguy may help???