Sorry for interrupting you all!
Agree with Eagle. It missed me at that time! BDL, please rephrase it!
Not wanting to jump over BDL but as I read the text he was indicating Argentinas position in global politics which at the time was as he stated insignificant in the American (USA) world view.
I understand the ideea, that’s why I asked BDL to rephrase (not the whole paragraph but the adjectives used).
Wasn’t meant to be insulting Dani, but on the world political stage Argentina is a small and insignificant country, especially when we were the US’ major Allies in the middle of the Cold War. No offence was intended and I apologise if any was taken. I will edit the post to be more clear what I mean.
Thanks mate!
The TAM (Tanque Argentino Mediano, Argentine Medium Tank) is a the 40 tons class tank based on the German Marder 1 IFV. Principle differences include different powerpacks and slightly heavier armor for the tank version. The TAM and the IFV version, the VCTP (Vehiculo de Combate Transporte de Personal, combat vehicle personnel transport) were shown as prototypes in the mid-1970s. They are the standard equipment of the Argentine army mechanised units. A family of derivative vehicles in various stages of development included the VCPM mortar carrier, VCRC recovery vehicle, VCTC command vehicle, VCLC rocket launcher, and a self-propelled howitzer carrying a local version of the italian Palmaria gun.
The first few TAM’s were equiped with the locally produced variant of the L7A1. Later vehicles were armed with the Rheinmetall LTA2, and the last produced vehicles were equiped with a locally produced modified version of the French CN-105-57, produced in the TAMSE military factory of Rio Tercero, in Cordoba province.
Taken from Global Security.org.
So TAM is essentially a Marder with a different engine and slightly heavier armour.
TAM is a medium tank designed by Thyssen-Henschel of Germany for Argentina. “TAM” stands for Tanque Argentino Mediano.
So, as we can see it is not a purely Argentinian design.
I’m not denying that the TAM is a far superior vehicle to the CVR(T) family (not just the Scorpion, there are many versions), but I believe that with the generally superior training and experience of the British soldiers fighting with the CVR(T), we could give the TAM equipped Argentinians a run for their money.
As the OEA (Organización de Estados Americanos) recognizes and recognized the sovereignty of Argentina from the south atlantic archipelagos, the United Kingdom was attacking an american state, attacking, since April 25th, argentine territory. As is an attack over agentine territory, the OEA recognized the argentine denunciation about a foreign attack, allowing the TIAR. Of course the United States started a threating campaign to the american nations to not send millitary support to Argentina. Brazil, Peru, Cuba and Venezuela, though, sent or offered forces to Argentina.
The US is not a member of the OEA though, are they? They had a choice of siding with their principle NATO ally, their main support in the Cold War and their oldest friend, or a POLITICALLY insignificant country in South America (please understand that this is not an insult to Argentina, just a statement of fact) who would not (and could not) be fighting the Soviets with them if the Cold War became WW3, would not be a militarily and politically strong ally and would never be as staunch a friend as the UK was. They (unsurprisingly) chose to support us.
And tell me… what we do with only words? If the UN were really impartial, a huge coalition of the Russian, German, French, Chinese, etc armies would be formed to deffend Iraq, as happened with Kuwait in 1991, as happened with Cyprus, as happened with the Balkans. Only when an US enemy is the “agressor” the UN forces or a UN-allowed coalition goes to fight.
The truth is if the UN doesn’t allow to the United States and it allies to attack a nation, the United States, only they don’t hear to the UN, as the UN don’t stop anything.
Who in the world would be stupid enough to go to war against America and the UK? The Chinese and the Russians need the US more than the US needs them (although I think that China will overtake the US as the world superpower in the not too distant future), they’re not going to risk a war with them yet. France is not strong enough on their own to fight Britain and the US, neither are Germany (and given NATO treaties, they would be unlikely to, even if they could). The UN may not be strong enough to stop the US taking action, but they could have stopped the British attacking the Falklands if they had seen fit to.
I repeat that decision about respect the islanders’ wish is not allowed by the UN rules, because the islanders doesn’t satisfy the “native” designation (We’ve talked about the self-determination right before, you know what I am talking about).
And of course, the UN recognize a kind of self-determination of the inhabitants of the Malvinas islands because the country who is in fault is the United Kingdom. If another country which is not a world power would be involved, the UN wouldn’t recognize it. A simple power issue, unfortunately not a justice issue, the same as the quote I’ve done above this.
Most of the Islanders are more native than the European descended Argentinians. Most can trace their families on the Islands back 150 years. As there was never a native population on the Islands, they are the closest there will ever be to being native.
If I am based on the above’s quote, you are saying that the Malvinas are british only because the islanders want it, so… where was YOUR TERRITORY???.
If you recognized that and the main problem was that british subjetcs were under argentine flag, you could stop the fleet and let our ships (about 30 cargo ships) or our aircraft (more than 60 heavy aircraft as C-130, B-707, B-737, B-747, BAC-111) be boarded by all the 2000 islanders and they could be carried out from the islands to London, Southampton or wherever the UK want, don’t you think so?
We could have, but why should we? They want to live there, it is there home. If the Argentinians descended from Germans and Spaniards were suddenly ordered to board planes back to Europe and start a new lif in the old country, would you happily fly home?
I think that is relevant, I was showing that along the years, the United Kingdom always used it weapons to solve the problems.
Britain has been involve in a lot of wars, because our position in the world has required it. We’ve fought two world wars because of promises to other smaller countries (Belgium and Poland), we’ve fought to stop the rise of communism in several ex-colonies and we’ve fought terrorism for the last 40 odd years in our own country. We have sometimes been the aggressor, but a lot of our wars have been forced upon us.
Thanks for you little physics class, fortunately I didn’t need it (I am studing at a technical mechanical high school).
I tried to say you that when the Task Force arrived to Ascension Island, nobody but the british forces, had the possibility to know really what was happening there. You didn’t know if the fleet was anchored, if the fleet was returning to Southampton or if the fleet was going to the south atlantic archipelagos, and if the fleet wasn’t anchored, there wasn’t possibilities to know when the fleet had gone, so your calculation of speed = distance/time is not useful here.
Surely you should always assume your enemy is going to keep approaching until proved otherwise? You can’t plan a war based on hoping that the enemy fleet will get bored and go home without attacking you. The junta clearly tried to and the Argentinian forces on the Falklands paid the price for it.
The first tweenty days because the argentine government didn’t ordered that, the war wasn’t taked as a possibility. The others thirty days were too endangered with the naval-aerial bombing over there positions, that’s why the soldiers only stayed on the holes relatively in safe of the attackings.
Again, that is poor planning and poor drills by the Argentinian forces. Their first act on the islands should have been to dig in properly, whether ordered to or not. It should be SOP when moving into their positions to dig in.
Tell me if that is not SPIRIT:
*Attacking to the center of a fleet of 20 ships, armed with cents of AAA units and thousands of SAM available and the support of Sea Harrier (armed with the best short range missile over the world by that time, the AIM-9L), with aircraft without RWR, without radar, without smart weapons, without aerial support, without air-air missiles only compared with the desesperating pilots of the Luftwaffe or the Japanese Air Force, in 1945. Never an argentine aircraft ran away, always attacking as crazy suicides.
*Attacking to the center of the Task Force with only a diesel submarine, interning alone without any connection with the argentine forces, sailing by weeks under the heart of the british fleet without any defences.
*Being more than a month working 20 hours a day, handling with each cable of the entire systems of AM-39/MM-38 Exocet, in order to load it systems without french assistance, to complete succesfully an “impossible task”, as the french named the possibility that Argentina could use the Exocets.
*All the land forces standing the positions by 70 days, without an apropiate nutrition, with lower military material, without connection with the continent, without naval-aerial support, being continually attacked with smart weapons.
*The Marine 5th battalion forces (Batallón 5 de Infantería de Marina) defended and repeled three times an attack of the Scott Guards in Tumbledown, without an apropiate nutrition by days, with lower military material, without naval-aerial support, being continually attacked by support fire of the british forces. This battalion kept fighting the afternoon June 14th in Wireless Ridge, ignoring the argentine surrender, alone against all the british land forces.
*The Army Special Forces Comandos Unit, fighting and defeating in several times to the best “special forces from all over the world”, as the SAS is known.
*The Pucará pilots on the Darwin & Goose Green battle, when the aircraft were destroyed on land, removing the weapons of these aircraft and putting them over tractors, launching rockets and loading machinegun fire against the PARA-2.
*The light artillery (the heavy artillery wasn’t moved to the conflict, thinking that a war wasn’t possible) with a range lower than 10.5km, fighting hand-to-hand to the heavier british artillery, with a range of 17km, moving all the time, firing and quickly running and hiding into holes to protect themselves to the british artillery bursts, to then reincorporate and fire, and repeat the sequence every time.
*Several tales of conscripts with a poor military training who keep there positions heroically, with possibly two conscripts fighting against 50 british professional soldiers. That was said by the same british soldiers who fought in the south atlantic war.
*In Darwin battle, the commander, Lt Estevez was hit in his shoulder, and he kept the commanding in the front of the battle. He was hit again in a leg, an he kept his position. He was hit again in the arm, being pulled up, and he kept his position commanding the argentine forces. He was hit by 4th and last time in his head, falling dead at the instant.
A Sub-Leutenant took the command and he was hit in his arm and he kept commanding and turn the artillery firing until a burst of machinegun reached him, dying. A simple soldier took the command turning artillery firing until he fell dead.*British forces ensures have seen argentine conscripts fighting only with their bayonets in the Longdon battle, when their ammo was exhausted, fighting agaisnt one of the biggest military powers of the world, only with a “simple knife”. It is remarked by the argentine forces who lived it.
Al the british forces stressed that they found a really unexpected and surprising resistance of the argentine forces in all the combats. In Malvinas the british equipment defeated to the argentine spirit.
I’m not denying that some Argentinians fought bravely, but the British clearly fought more bravely to beat a bigger, dug in enemy that was fighting bravely. It was only fighting spirit that won the war for us.
I am here to have respectable discussions, not to be humbled by others members with this kind of phrases. I think I didn’t fault to the british or another member (or his country) respect never, and I am only asking the same for me. Respect. Respect for me and my country, ok? Thank you very much.
As I said above, it was not meant as an insult. Politically (especially when compared to Britain), Argentina is a politically insignificant country on the world stage. I will edit my post to make that clearer.
Also stated this in the “lets stop bickering” thread … how about just shutting this one down and starting another one. Calm and nice and closely watched.
Im for it, very closely watched though…
Face it lad, you had the opportunity to be a soldier and you jacked it.
You can still join up if you really want to, but being an chairborne warrior is probably better suited to your personality.
Your patriotism is laudable and you have an interest in the army, but you don’t have a Scooby about war.
Most veterans want to go through that again ? Wake up and smell the maté !
As BDL said if you’ve been in a real war it’s not something you look forward to.
Stop acting like a war comic addicted child, it’s unbecoming.
You will invade in democratic times ?
Argentinians want to kill the inhabitants of the Falklands ?
Sometimes you astound me Erwin.
So are you saying you sent second rate troops ?
Why ? Poor Int or lack of choice ?
Crack on young lad, there’s nothing so heroic as a young man murdering an eighty year old woman… :roll:
Of course Erwin, of course.[/quote]
1)Chairborne?,eh?
2)yes,they want,ask one of them,where do you think that we get for the letters the words “Malvinas,Volveremos!”,it means: “Malvinas,we will come back!” referring to a new invation.
and im not war addict,im british killing addict :twisted: ,don’t worry oldie,i enjoy everything in my youth (except studying),ah,and bluffcove is a boy like me,he’s 21 too!.
3)you don’t trust me? :roll: ,what about a visit to one to a zone of low class in argentina? 
,then ask them in your tipically mr bean accent (can he talk?) …WAIT!,just say “FALKLANDS”… :twisted: ,you will have a nice time then.
4)Second Rate troops?,no,CONSCRIPTS and with bad equipment btw (it wasn’t working fine).
5)The heroic boys of maggietatchersdead.co.uk think that,and they are brits.
Of course.
YOUR WORDS
Erwin, that is bordering on ahate post mate.
So you are a British killing addict? Im sure you may get a diffrent reaction from the MODs if you say, all americans should be killed, or all Moslems should be killed.
Same diffrence, we dont need your hate here mate.
I think you should consider amending that post.
you don’t need it,then,ask the mods to edit every post that says “kill brits”
it would be ok for me,because they are the mods,but,when bluffcove posted the photo of the argentine dead soldier…silence.
i think the MODs also should have a different reaction.
eh?
I think theres a diffrence from posting aphoto to actually inciting violence?
Are you asking everyone to kill Brits
Yes or No?
Firefly, I can see why you are getting peeved at the purile responses.
It would be enjoyable if there was some argument, or even a trace of coherence, behind his posts and replies.
I’m just unsure if he really is xenophobic or if he thinks the Brits will flare up and have a foot stamping fit of pique.
I don’t mind the latter as it’s just not going to happen, but the blind hate posts are not going to endear the site to potential new members.
Chairborne = someone who has never seen a war and thinks that it is all a joke and a bit of a laugh. Much like you. Refers to real soldiers - Airborne
2)yes,they want,ask one of them,where do you think that we get for the letters the words “Malvinas,Volveremos!”,it means: “Malvinas,we will come back!” referring to a new invation.
and im not war addict,im british killing addict :twisted: ,don’t worry oldie,i enjoy everything in my youth (except studying),ah,and bluffcove is a boy like me,he’s 21 too!.
Liar, no one who has ever seen war wants to see those things again. War is hellish, war is terrible and war is not like your computer games.
A British killing addict? Why is that Erwin? Is it because you’re a childish little fool who thinks he is going to get a rise out of the Brits on here? Maybe if you had managed to finish your military training, you could at least speak about killing someone with a little bit of knowledge. As it is, you couldn’t manage that, so you have to come onto a forum and act the hard man. You wouldn’t last five minutes against real soldiers.
3)you don’t trust me? :roll: ,what about a visit to one to a zone of low class in argentina?
Visit the drinking areas of Colchester on a friday night and tell the Paras how homosexual they are and how you’d love to kill them all, see how long you last. We don’t need to go to anywhere in Argentina to fight about the Falklands, we did it in 1982 and we all know how that ended up.
4)Second Rate troops?,no,CONSCRIPTS and with bad equipment btw (it wasn’t working fine).
That would be second rate troops then, who couldn’t even look after their own rifles.
5)The heroic boys of maggietatchersdead.co.uk think that,and they are brits.
So?
Again, this is the last post from me replying to you on this thread, you’re a petulant little boy who talks like a hard man and couldn’t even finish your military training. You talk about killing Brits, but you didn’t even have the bottle to finish training, never mind actually going to war and doing those things for real. You see people like you in every pub in the country on a friday night, talking hard until a real man takes them in the car park and educates him.
Liar, no one who has ever seen war wants to see those things again. War is hellish, war is terrible and war is not like your computer games.
He’s right, i saw the aftermath of the 7th july bombings, i don’t want to see it’s like again. Nor am i niave enough to actually want to kill people, no professional soldier wants to kill people, he simply wants to get on with a job and go home to see his missus.
about the chairborne,i know what is a war,of course,it is not funny,but enjoying the victory of my country and showing supremacy on a world power and exempire would be a good trophy,and i know that i prefer that,i know what things do hurt,(trust me,i know that more than you ).
ASK AN ARGENTINE VETERAN IF HE WANTS OR NOT TO GO AGAIN TO THE MALVINAS,GO TO: ]http://www.malvinasvirtual.com.ar/
AND ASK A VETERAN,YOU CAN FIND BOTH YOUNG PEOPLE AND VETERANS THERE!.
He’s right, i saw the aftermath of the 7th july bombings, i don’t want to see it’s like again. Nor am i niave enough to actually want to kill people, no professional soldier wants to kill people, he simply wants to get on with a job and go home to see his missus.
he is not,there are two classes of soldiers,those who want to help their motherland (in all costs!) and those who wants to kill people and like violence (see irak war).
and talking about the 7th of july i called the embassy of britain,for giving them my sorry,but don’t think i just would love you for that!.
Visit the drinking areas of Colchester on a friday night and tell the Paras how homosexual they are and how you’d love to kill them all, see how long you last. We don’t need to go to anywhere in Argentina to fight about the Falklands, we did it in 1982 and we all know how that ended up.
i will do!,with some of this:
this little boy could resist the macho course in argentina more than johnny in his mr bean’s camo party,
Are you asking everyone to kill Brits
Yes or No
when did i say: let’s kill brits,go mates! (in this forum of course!).
That would be second rate troops then, who couldn’t even look after their own rifles.
who couldn’t use their rifles if they had them broken?,i guess yours would not have nice time with our rifles.
Im sure war is not a wargame,im 21,no 3 (bluffcove think he is younger).
Chairborne
oh!,the british humour,so funny :roll: .
ok,done,let’s do this:
Erwin will you please stop acting like a knob, Argentina lost in 82 and no matter how you try to spin it the facts remain the same. You claim to be 21 but you are comming across like a 12 year old having a hissy fit. It’s past time for you to accept historical fact and move on.
Your personal crusade is disrupting other members enjoyment, Argentina may be a great place to live but as far as the rest of the world is concerned your only good for corned beef, football, polo and winging.
You lost your mod status through your own actions, stop blaming everyone else and start behaving like the adult you claim to be.
Well im going to go ahead and make the call on this one. No more talking about the falklands at least untill monday. Ill probably just move this one out and allow someone to start a new one.
AS THE FALKLANDS CONFLICT IS LOCKED, I’LL ANSWER HERE. I HOPE IT WON’T CAUSE PROBLEMS.
BDL
So TAM is essentially a Marder with a different engine and slightly heavier armour.
If you don’t have in account the electronic systems, the power, the max speed, the weight, the range, the combat charge and equipments, the range of the shots, the main cannon, the secondary weapon, the length and the night-combat equipment, so if you don’t have in account the 90% of the tank, yes, the TAM is a Marder. Are you satisfied?
The US is not a member of the OEA though, are they?
Yes they are. What’s more, the head office building is on the United States.
or a POLITICALLY insignificant country in South America
It seems you don’t know that Argentina was the best north-american ally in latin america, giving special control for the capitalism system, with argentine troops fighting guerrillas not only in Argentina, in another countries as Bolivia or Nicaragua, supporting the governments attacked by guerrillas-prosoviets groups.
To the United States, Argentina was a really discharge of there idealistic problems.
…who would not (and could not) be fighting the Soviets with them if the Cold War became WW3
Argentina ensured to the United States government that Argentina would fight and could fight agaisnt left-idealistic enemies.
Remember that Argentina in the '80s was the only country from under the Equator Line and one of the few of the world which had:
*Aircrafts factories (FMA)
*Helicopters factories (Hughes-Racca)
*Tanks and armoured vehicles factories (TAMSE)
*Balistic Missiles factories (Chamical)
*Bombs, mortars, cannons and smart weapons (bombs/missiles) factories (CITEFA)
*Smart systems and radars factories (INVAP)
*Single weapons and ammunition factories (FM)
*Submarines, Combat and cargo ships shipyard-factories(SY Domeq Garcia, SY Belgrano)
*Apropiate installations to manufacture a nuclear weapon (Bariloche base).
*Possibility to realize a nuclear submarine.
*Own oil extraction plants in Argentine territory (YPF)
*The Biggest oil-refinery plants from Latin America (YPF)
*The Biggest production plants of steel and iron from Latin America (SIDERAR and ACINDAR)
*The Biggest production plants of aluminium from Latin America (ALUAR)
Only with an apropiate inversion of the argentine government or the US government to incentivate the argentine forces, that factories would be in the first line of production from all over the world, having the possibility of be the US allied from the south and defending south america from a possible attack from external or internal “enemies”, and of course Argentina could fight in a world-powers battle, supporting the United States forces and its allies in any part of the world.
Argentina had the possibility to maintain an independent military factory to be a potential ally of the United States in its war against the Varsovia Pact, the only Argentina needed was only a little of support from a foreign power world country to incentivate
Who in the world would be stupid enough to go to war against America and the UK?
That’s not the point about what I was talking about.
If the United States and the United Kingdom attack the nations which are against their politics when the entire world are in oppositing that decision, what the entire world should do? attack them as they do?
As there was never a native population on the Islands, they are the closest there will ever be to being native.
The closest there will ever be to being a native were the Spanish colonists, inhabiting a real spanish territory from 1780 to 1811, and Argentine natives inhabiting a real argentine territory from 1825 to 1833.
You don’t have to take in account only the years if the territory it wasn’t yours. The british islanders installed themselves as invaders, not as colonists.
We could have, but why should we? They want to live there, it is there home. If the Argentinians descended from Germans and Spaniards were suddenly ordered to board planes back to Europe and start a new lif in the old country, would you happily fly home?
No, because Spain as Germany recognized and recognizes the existence of a sovereign state in Argentina, and the former propietary, Spain, recognized the Argentine sovereignty and its absolute independence.
Argentina never recognized an state over the Malvinas and only sees to the inhabitant as foreigns who are inhabiting an argentine territory, and they could choice about their freedom as the Argentine constitution says. The can stay or go out if they want, but the south atlantic archipelagos are Argentine.
You can’t plan a war based on hoping that the enemy fleet will get bored and go home without attacking you
Correction, the argentine government in April 1982 (they were wrong of course, as the main things they did), never thought in a war, and never planed once.
I’m not denying that some Argentinians fought bravely, but the British clearly fought more bravely to beat a bigger, dug in enemy that was fighting bravely. It was only fighting spirit that won the war for us.
We won’t agree each other never at this point. My position is the Argentine spirit was by far bigger than the British spirit (I am not saying that it spirit wasn’t present at all, I know a lot of relates of heroicall british soldiers in the campaign of the South Atlantic).
In fact, the argentine spirit was bigger than the british, but the british military/logistic equipment was much bigger even than the argentine military/logistic equipment.
Consider the Hercules transport aircraft. The RAF operates two variants - the C-130J and the C-130K. They are different in at least as many ways as you describe between the Marder and the TAM, but both are still Hercules. Despite the large differences, there are certain limitations common to any variant on the C130. They will never be supersonic, an interceptor, or able to take off vertically. In a similar way, whatever you do to a MArder, it will still be a Marder. It might be a super-uprated Marder-on-steroids that could beat any other Marder type in a fight (or a shark or a bear, for that matter) but it will still have limitations on its performance inherent in being based on a Marder.