Falklands/Malvinas slagging match

So many questions. I never claimed Wiki was reliable but it was a convenient example. There are others, for example Amnesty International, which I’m pretty sure has been equally critical of the situation in the Lebanon and Iraq.

One sided? Now thats an interesting point you make! Panzerknacker who started this thread, now wishes to limit it to alleged war crimes committed by the British Army.

It absolutely had no right to resort to the methods it chose to use. That should never be acceptable in any state.

One sided? Now thats an interesting point you make! Panzerknacker who started this thread, now wishes to limit it to alleged war crimes committed by the British Army.

And how is that ? :rolleyes: , nobody is handcuffed here.

If the people here are more willing to talk about the alleged british war crimes in Malvinas must be because those are of a more direct nature of the allleged argentine ones.

For example planting mines is relative impersonal compared with shooting prisoners.

In which case, can we expect an answere on posts #24, 28, 29, & 30 soon? :roll:

Interesting, that in the eyes of Panzerknacker planting a few unmarked minefields is somehow a lesser crime than shooting a man in agony. Its a novel moral compass you have.

The executions related by Bramley had nothing to do with the so called “mercilees killing”, is another one. I quote that is spanish, I will translated .

And I dont think that planting mines is a lesser crime…I dont consider it crime at all.

In which case, can we expect an answere on posts #24, 28, 29, & 30 soon?

Sure let me quote all this and you get you answer.

And by the way, I will provide soon more evidence of another case of british soldier shooting unarmed argentine prisoners.

The Geneva convention, even in 1982, begs to differ.

Your prisoners were treated well, when it came to medical treatment casualties were treated according to need not nationality. Commander Rick Jolly was decorated by both sides for his humanity.

Well, there was cases they didnt.

Also, since you claim there was no Argentine “war crimes”

I dont remember said that…I said that the actions of the argentine forces has been distortionated by some kind of propaganda. I will say there is no or there was none I have knowledge.

the detention of 115 civilians in cramped conditions, with no separate accommodation for woman, no attempt to provide protection against stray fire, in accommodation that was not marked.

Well if so, I think was a violation, not really a crime, I remember saw some images of a deportive center in New Orleans in Katrina times when people was mantained togheter without separation of genders, nasty but nessesary under those circunstances.

Use of search lights mounted on a hospital ship.
Stacking ammunition amongst civilian shelters. Deportation of civilians

I have found no information of those in argentine/ spanish language sources I can not confirm or deny suchs acts.

Mock executions.

Man…you should not even mention that, what about real executions performed by british soldiers, And there is account of those facts from the two sides, in one case you have the Bramley book confirmed by 5 argentine witnesses, other the incident with the wounded after the explotions of the shells ( I will give that as merciful killing allright) also confirmed with argentine witness and they dont fully agree the merciful caracterization and now I find another:

I could put here the outraged words of the Captain of the submarine ARA Santa Fe but I dont even need that to confirm this crime, just read the accout of a british sailor.

Things went wrong however because of one trigger happy Marine! Basically, the submarine was listing to port and possibly going to turn over. The Crew were down below with Colin Tozer and Royal Marines watching them v. carefully. On the fin (bridge) was JC with Chris “guarding” and the Arg. CO. As the submarine went ahead in the final stages of the manoeuvre the Arg. CO. called down the hatch into the dimly lit interior and one crew member started winding off on valves (presumably doing what he had been told). The Marine guarding him promptly shot him though the head (!) and then ran up the hatch still shooting his pistol shouting “It’s going to sink” - “Get me off”. Obviously off his rocker - all had gone so well. No dead - one Argentinean with leg shot off just above knee by an AS12 missile and a couple of “walking wounded”. Now, however, one of their Prisoners of War while helping us has been shot.

The source is here.

http://www.hmsbrilliant.com/hmsb.cgi?page=dsection3

And that is just beatiful, the Argentine militaria who did not kill any civilian or prisoner is portrayed in several sources as nearly neandertal monsters.

But off course the British military with 3 separated incidents of executions with head shots on unarmed prisoners were merely freedom fighters.

Mate, Blind Freddie could see what happened in that case, without knowing anything more about it. It was a terrible misunderstanding.

But, given your distorted interpretation of an awful accident as the brutal execution of a POW, here’s a more complete account.

The only fatality was an Argentine Chief Petty Officer who was sadly shot while the submarine was being moved under supervision. A skeleton crew of Argentines had been on board, each member with a Royal Marine guard who had instructions to prevent the boat being scuttled. Commands were to be passed down in both Spanish and English so that both could understand. The particular order to blow tanks reached Chief Petty Officer Artuso and his guard only in Spanish. As the Argentine sailor complied with the command, the Royal Marine thought that he was about to scuttle the boat and so he shot him. Artuso was buried with full military honours in the graveyard that holds Sir Ernest Shackleton and many others who have died in the harsh climate of South Georgia.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/falklands/sg1.html

If the Argentinians had not made the mistake of relaying the order in Spanish, your man would not have been shot.

I don’t propose to blame them alone for the man’s death as, like most accidents, there were several factors involved without any one of which the accident would not have occurred. It is equally wrong to blame the British marine alone for the death. It is utterly absurd to present the accident as the murder of a POW by the marine.

I await your predictable response that the above quote is just a cover-up by the British who, [sarcasm on] true to their murderous souls, carefully arranged to kill a prisoner of war in front of other members of his crew but by a minor oversight in carrying out their scheme they forgot to kill all the Argentinian witnesses, thus proving that not only were they committed to killing as many Argentinian POW’s as possible but also they were hopelessly incompetent at it [sarcasm off].

ROFLMAO :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

Strange how you were able and happy - nay, jubilant -to rely on an English source for the alleged Santa Fe murder, but now the only sources you have access to are argentine/spanish language.

But off course the British military with 3 separated incidents of executions with head shots on unarmed prisoners

Evidence?

( not to mention the accidental death of 3 women)

And your point is?

I’m concerned that by raising this you might poison this thread by raising the matter of ‘own side’ civilian deaths caused by the British army, which seems a little inconsistent with your rapid transfer of my earlier post about ‘own side’ treatment of civilians by the Argentinian army, which I note you haven’t answered in the other thread, either. Along with the questions posed earlier in this thread.

Should I infer that this is because there aren’t any Argentine/ Spanish language sources on these matters?

However, as you’ve raised ‘own side’ British civilian deaths, surely it’s only reasonable to explore the same issue involving Argentinian deaths?

I dont know how is in Australia but in here we are not jubilant when we remember a fallen countryman.

There is no a murderous soul in the British Army but there was one in the Marine who killed Artuso. No warning, no even a shot in the leg, just BANG ¡¡…a 9 mm bullet in the skull.That was his award for colaborating with the British. That is execution and a flagrant war crime.

I’m concerned that by raising this you might poison this thread by raising the matter of ‘own side’ civilian deaths caused by the British army, which seems a little inconsistent with your rapid transfer of my earlier post about ‘own side’ treatment of civilians by the Argentinian army, which I note you haven’t answered in the other thread, either. Along with the questions posed earlier in this thread.

Not poisoning anything, those deaths were accidents, but if is so important to you, I going to edit that part.

You weren’t remembering a fallen countryman.

You were jubilant because you thought you had evidence of a British war crime.

There is no a murderous soul in the British Army but there was one in the Marine who killed Artuso. No warning, no even a shot in the leg, just BANG ¡¡…a 9 mm bullet in the skull.That was his award for colaborating with the British. That is execution and a flagrant war crime.

I don’t think you grasp the realities of war, or of the situation on the Santa Fe.

Presumably the Argentine navy works on the same basis that applies in other armed forces, which is to try not to co-operate with the enemy when captured and to cause it problems where possible. The British would naturally be suspicious that the crew might attempt to scuttle it to deny access to the dock or otherwise to impede landing British forces. I don’t know what specific instructions or agreements existed between the British and Argentine commanders, but the arrangement to relay orders in English and Spanish makes it pretty clear that the British wanted to know what was going on to avoid the sub being scuttled. The presence of an armed guard for each member of the crew should have made it pretty clear what was going to happen if it appeared that an attempt was made to scuttle it. I suspect that it would have been made very clear to the Argentinians before the exercise started that any attempt to scuttle it would result in instantaneous death.

Should a crew member have attempted to scuttle it, the question then is whether the person is a prisoner or a re-activated combatant. I think the latter.

But in this case, much as you are incapable of recognising it, it was just a terrible accident.

You can’t begin to imagine how tired I am of hearing that idiotic view that police or soldiers or anyone else should have shot someone in the leg. It’s a myth that doing so automatically (a) disables someone and (b) avoids death, as you’ll discover in a minute or two if you sever the femoral artery. Moreover, unless someone is wearing tights, it can be difficult to know exactly where the target area is.

As he was a collaborator, what penalty would Artuso have received for such a crime in Argentina?

As he was a collaborator, was he a prisoner of war or had he defected to the British?

Amnesty International?
Well could you find even single case when this organisation defended the civils peoples perished during the Israel bombing in Lebanon?i/m not/ The everything that i could find was the olny the common words about the guilty of Hisbolla- nothing more.
Or could you find even the tiny of critic of presents coalition troops in the Iraq?

It absolutely had no right to resort to the methods it chose to use. That should never be acceptable in any state.

Really they has no right to use the such methods?:wink:
And what about treating the prisoners in Aby-Grabe and Guantanamo prisons?
And a tens of CIA secret prisons in Eastern Europe?
Are you sure they do not use a such methoids inside?i/m not, especially when it come to the surface the several death cases that ONLY were discussed in Media.
And BTW did you see the photo of treatment from Aby-Graib? It’s interesting, believe me :wink:
It is strange why if the Argentinians treated its political opponents ( who used the terrorisyt methods de facto) - this is a wrong violence toward the " own people" but if we treats the “suspected peoples with terrorists” - this is all OK ,this is “war agains terrorism”.:wink:
Don’t you think its funny?

Certainly, here is one link. Quite a few more here

Abu-Ghraib, utterly wrong, the perpetrators are in prison, their officers demoted and reprimanded. Quite rightly so. However, it was not officially sanctuioned

Utterly wrong, it should be closed down.

If they exist, utterly wrong.

Perhaps, a language barrier but I have no idea what you are on about.

A violation of the Geneva convention is in fact a war crime. But you just carry on ignoring everything that you don’t like to hear.

Isn’t that convenient.

Side stepping and not too neatly.

Extensively investigated by Scotland Yard with no evidence found. The names of these witnesses?

Really, so what exactly did these “Argentine” witnesses say?

I’ll not bother replying on the Santa Fe incident, that was more than adequately dealt with elsewhere.

Again no-one has betrayed the Argentines as Neanderthal monsters, just some of them. Like Major Patricio Dowling, whose behaviour was so bad that the Argentine “Governor” sent him home.

By all means carry on with this hyperbole but you make yourself look foolish.

A name of argentine witness wich I remember is name Jose Carrizo he was shot in the head twice and lost some grey matter and a eye but manage to survive. I think there are others.

You have not portrayed us as Monster but others do that.

Foolish ? Hiperbole ? dont think so, more foolish is to said that a point blank shot in the head is an “accident”.

Most of this histories are in spanish so I need to translate before posting here.

In the meanwhile I let you a image of the “ears collector” Stewart McLaughlin, who according to ltn Mark Cox cut 24 argentine ears.

McLaughlin was killed in action by a mortar shell.

http://www.clarin.com/diario/96/05/26/infrec4.html

A rough translation of above link with babelfish :

Scouse" McLaughlin was one of the most seasoned parachutists, was a “corporal one”, maximum rank of the sergeant majors, and fought wounded in its back, but it died in the battle practically beheaded by a mortar. When lieutenant Mark Cox found her body, he recognized it by his equipment, and he tried to rescue some food that was in its knapsack. The surprise was that one of its ammunition pockets was full of human ears. The second that found them was John Week, ordered to make the documentation of the battle.

In different interviews it was said that there were twelve pairs of ears collected by McLaughlin, a quite high amount if one remembers that 29 Argentineans in the battle died. But nobody really counted them.

Vincent Bramley saw an alive prisoner, with its hurt leg, to that it needed the two ears. DES Fuller, another parachutist, was witness of another similar episode.

The fact was enough so that McLaughlin was not decorated postmortem. But their companions justify their action saying that the Argentineans “no longer needed” their ears.

“What another class of atrocities you describe in your book?”

Atrocities are a word very hard to use. The corporal McLauglin mutilated bodies of died soldiers, and probably one or two that they were alive but who they were going to die. That I know, were no other atrocities committed by the British forces. There were violations of the Convention of Geneva by the Argentine forces, but these things always happen in the war.

"The Argentine committed them? "

I do not believe that the Argentineans have committed atrocities in Longdon. We must recognize that the Argentine troops were surpassed by the amount of British forces, that always were more successful and professional than the Argentine military. The system of defense and communications of the Argentineans very was fractured by the ferocidad of the British attack in Goose Green and Longdon, and they could not organize a resistance. It had not welded British captured. Therefore, there were no atrocities. But what happened it is that the day of the invasion, a British helicopter was demolished in waters of San Carlos and the Argentine forces shot with machine guns on waters, I believe that was Regiment 12. In the battle of Goose Green, two British officials were died by machine-gun fire when they took a white flag, and that is a treason act.

"But the British wanted to execute an official of their own army that hid during the battle by fear. "

He could be executed. One hid between rocks during the battle. He never exposed himself to no horror. But he could not clearly support the tension of the beginning of the battle and genuinely it was a psychiatric loss.

"It can execute it in a martial judgment? "

Not in the British Armed Forces of these days. This was cancelled in World War I and nothing is punished with death.

I really dont need to add nothing, I just will try to find time to translate the Bramley narration.

Chevan one of you message has been moved to Off Topic militaria, please leave this exclusively to the Malvinas theater of operation.

I don’t know where to draw the line between a perverse refusal to accept glaring facts and just plain stupidity, but I think you’ve crossed that line.

Despite my posts on the Santa Fe issue, you persist in maintaining that it was an execution of a POW rather than a terrible accident, caused in part by Argentinian failures. If you can’t see that it was an accident, you lack not only objectivity but common sense.

There is no point debating these issues further with you as you have a closed mind which is unreceptive to anything except that which reinforces your own absurd interpretations, which always present Argentina as the eternal victim of British aggression and war crimes, from the original occupation of the Islands until now.

If your benighted attitude is representative of majority Argentinian opinion at present, Argentina has a long way to go before it can begin to understand its, and Britain’s, history on the Falklands War. And reality.

Jesus wept.

Panzerknacker, all the points you have raised have been investigated by many and all angles looked at.

The Marine who shot the Submariner, did so because of a cluster. ie he was told to shoot him if he attempted to scuttle, the command reached him only in spanish, the guy started blowing tanks.

It was an accident and it happens.

YOU may not consider the actof laying unmarked/mapped minefields as no big deal, the Geneva Conventions sees things differently.

The WO2 who shot the wounded conscript is still walking free, because it was investigated and seen as the only thing to do.

Your claims it was not his finest hour, I disagree. He did it in full view of his comrades and the Argentine prisoners. He would know he could go down for it. Yet in front of him lay a mangled screaming corpse in waiting, not losing much blood because what blood vessels were open were immedialy sealed again by the heat of the blast, bones on display as the flesh had been ripped off by the blast. His life slowly seeping from capillaries. The wounded man, had nothing in front of him but a long and agonizing death.

Did I mention it was going to be long and agonizing?

There would not have been anything to do, even had he got to a hospital (the best Argentina or Britain could provide, not a field hospital) he would have died in pain, after a prolonged period. I have a feeling if you ask the soldier in question, he would have happily gone to prison for a bit, if only to punish himself for doing what he did.

War crimes on the Falklands were few and far between. And the Argentines (unfortunatly) defintitly carried out more actual and almost “war crimes”.

As has been mentioned before, the Argentine hierachy were a key point in this. They didn’t value human life, so why should their army?

It’s a very simple matter to criticise with, hindsight and from a desktop, the person that didn’t have the luxury of remaining detatched. I don’t know the full story of this incident but, as it is described by 1000yds, I would hope that if I was in the situation of the person that was shot, that someone would have the courage to do the same for me. In my opinion, this is a justifiable mercy-killing. If the Brit that did the killing had truly beeen motivated through hate or sadism, he could have left him to suffer, he could have left him to die a pro-longed and agonizing death.
If it was simply a killing for killing’s sake then he could surely have found good reason to kill others. The circumstances of the action speak for themselves and, under those circumstances, it was a noble deed, and one with which the Brit will have to live with for the rest of his life, poor man.

War crimes on the Falklands were few and far between. And the Argentines (unfortunatly) defintitly carried out more actual and almost “war crimes”.

Yes, sure, shooting people in the head, cutting ears to the wounded, making prisoners to manipulate unestable artillery shells, executing prisoner wounded after the explotion of shells, executing seamen inside a submarine, etc,etc.

I am probably not very objetive here but i am sure that those were crimes, because they are.

I don’t know where to draw the line between a perverse refusal to accept glaring facts and just plain stupidity, but I think you’ve crossed that line.

Despite my posts on the Santa Fe issue, you persist in maintaining that it was an execution of a POW rather than a terrible accident, caused in part by Argentinian failures. If you can’t see that it was an accident, you lack not only objectivity but common sense.

There is no point debating these issues further with you as you have a closed mind which is unreceptive to anything except that which reinforces your own absurd interpretations, which always present Argentina as the eternal victim of British aggression and war crimes, from the original occupation of the Islands until now.

Is a shame to realize that you have lost your usual charm.:cool:

If your benighted attitude is representative of majority Argentinian opinion at present, Argentina has a long way to go before it can begin to understand its, and Britain’s, history on the Falklands War. And reality

Coming from you I ll take that as a compriment. :rolleyes:
I any case I am not so pretentious to represent 38 million people.
Beside that I dont think so, most of the people follow the peronist party and I going to vote for Union Popular.

The British PoWs on South Georgia co-operated with the Argentines by defusing their own booby traps laid on the docks… didn’t have to, but did.

The Argentine PoWs moving the munitions did so because the shells were piled up close to the only shelter in the area. The British couldn’t move the PoWs so they had to be accomodated. Hence the movement. I would like to think that an Argentine soldier would have done the same to a similarly injured Royal Marine on SG should the scenario have happened there.

The “execution” of the Seaman has been explained fully… deal with it. It is not a war crime just an accident.

The cutting off of ears was one man, and the victims were dead, not wounded. Not one single living veteran of the war has been presented sans ears.

No Argentine bodies have been exhumed with 9mm bullets in the back, at close range.

STOP trying to make more of what happened down there than did. You are just showing yourself up now.

1000yds, read my post above about the ears cutting thing.

In the end everybody will believe the thing wich confort his mind the best.
The british people here probably will be more inclined to believe that there was no crimes and Bramley and others are a bunch of compulsive liars.

Is really unimportant to me at his stage, the purpose of this topic was not that, but to present to the neutral reader an account of those facts.

As I declined my intention to convince the brits I would ask…please, do not try to convince me with your justifications, accidents and others points of view, your will waste your time :rolleyes: