Firebombing: Are war crimes decided by the victors?

World War II General WWII Discussion
#81

But from the antoher hand the rising CHina will feel threat from Europe as American ally and thus will increase their military forces.It is appearing the close circle- the USA will pump the Europe with nuclear missles, targeting to CHina- the CHina will built the new missles , targeting to Europe. Is this prospect you wish for Europe?
Sure the USA will be in winning position- the CHina will attack Europe first intead of USA.But this is dastardly to europeans - to use them as hostages of CHinas military roller.You simply use the Europe in American-China epic battle for survival. What is the profit for Europe? Hardly the chinases plann to invade the western Europe.

I think you might have misunderstood my comments. I was saying that the average people in occupied Western Europe weren’t fighting the Germans 1940-45 because the Germans weren’t attacking them, but that the Nazis attacked the Jews, Gypsies etc in those countries.

Well may be:) But you seems wrote that the life in Nazis Europe was rather satisfactorily for most people. That imply that the Nazis wasn’t so bad for majority, by other words.

America has to defend Europe from itself. Before America had military forces in Europe the European nations / peoples had been fighting each other for the past couple of thousand years. Since America has had military forces stationed in Europe there hasn’t been a European war (assuming one treats the Balkans as not being part of Europe :wink: :smiley: ).

America is a force for peace. :wink:

it WAS forces of peace.A long time ago. Now the “peacemakers” seems lost in countless war conflict around the world that USA provoked itself.And they , obviously , need the help for themself.
I don’t actualy wish the evil for the americans. But we all see like involving deeper and deeper into the locals wars the USA getting weaker and vulnerable.But what is MORE DANGER - the americans involve the europeans into the sensless conflict like say in Afganistan.
This is serious and i think that the europeans shall have become the adult and independent. And europeans are obligated to help to americans. But not in the manner the USA imply it.

#82

Military forces only follow the politics set out by the leaders. Whether an army is liberating, peace defending or whatever depends on the (wo)men in charge.
The US are today geopolitical weakening yes. Many nations and empires tackled themselves into war every time they felt “squeezed” into a weak position.

Europe’s leaders are on a turning point of playing economical disaster firemen, meddling on with the US, negotiating with eastern neigbours for energy (russian gas fe) and thinking about China. Our royal family for example has made more business trips to China and Russia last years than to all other countries together. Chinese is even being discussed as an element in education.

#83

I think there might be a language problem all right. Nevertheless, Steben, you write English quite well, especially since it is not your native language. I’m not sure if you are trying to be combative, but sometimes you may un-knowingly come across that way and provoke an equal response.

Again, as to homogeneity of the American identity, it is not and has never been homogenous. There are a lot of Americas out there. Perhaps to an outsider it all seems the same and I suppose that is understandable. Maybe to someone who saw a lot of 1950s television re-runs - Leave it to Beaver, Ozzie and Harriet, Father Knows Best, etc. - it did look all the same. Trust me, it never was. Countries like the US, Canada and Australia were built on immigration and the immigrants arrived in waves from different parts of the world. You must know that. Different ethnic groups experienced discrimination at various times, which discrimination vanished over time as other ethnic groups arrived and became targets of discrimination which, for the most part, was overcome in time. Personally, I love the variety of people who call this their country. It may be our greatest strength - that and the fact that this is a country of second chances, and the kind of place where a couple of working class kids can build computers in their garage and change the world.

My parents passed away some time ago so I cannot ask their opinions on Afghanistan, but I can guess.

#84

no that was an attempt to make a joke :lol:

Nevertheless, Steben, you write English quite well, especially since it is not your native language. I’m not sure if you are trying to be combative, but sometimes you may un-knowingly come across that way and provoke an equal response.

Everybody does and it is clear that this is perhaps not the right forum.
However there are few forums with a possibility to a discussion as this.
This forum tends to be about the past. I reflect about past and future.

Again, as to homogeneity of the American identity, it is not and has never been homogenous. There are a lot of Americas out there. Perhaps to an outsider it all seems the same and I suppose that is understandable. Maybe to someone who saw a lot of 1950s television re-runs - Leave it to Beaver, Ozzie and Harriet, Father Knows Best, etc. - it did look all the same. Trust me, it never was. Countries like the US, Canada and Australia were built on immigration and the immigrants arrived in waves from different parts of the world. You must know that. Different ethnic groups experienced discrimination at various times, which discrimination vanished over time as other ethnic groups arrived and became targets of discrimination which, for the most part, was overcome in time. Personally, I love the variety of people who call this their country. It may be our greatest strength - that and the fact that this is a country of second chances, and the kind of place where a couple of working class kids can build computers in their garage and change the world.

Amidst of all mixes there must be a common identity you support.
I wonder whether the US is really as divided for example as some may conclude out of the polarised results of last elections.

My parents passed away some time ago so I cannot ask their opinions on Afghanistan, but I can guess.

Sorry to hear.

ps.: spamspam above :frowning:

#85

The thing about the American Civil War is that its after-effects are still here today. There’s a reason we call it The South and it’s not geographical; it’s mental. States like South Carolina - where the war began - still see themselves as “proud” rebels, even if their cause was basically in support of people “owning people”, in spite of all the blather about “states’ rights”. Fundamentalist Christian views hold sway over much of the south which may account for the bloc-voting tendencies of the region, although many of them are Episcopalians as opposed to Southern Baptists. If Lincoln had not been shot, the result might have been otherwise, and The South would have become a more congenial place. Texas, fortunately, has one foot in the south and the other in the west, which has helped a bit.

#86

Well, Steben, we shall see, but in all my years here, I have never seen it so divided and mean-spirited as it is today.

What we have in common is the idea that we all have the right to pursue life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and that we have a Constitution and a Bill of Rights to back it up. As I said, it has always been a land where the individual can make a difference (in a garage or not) and better him or herself without needing recourse to a family name or “standing” (a Belgian would know what that means) to guarantee one’s success. Also, protecting the least among us says a lot about the rest of us.

#87

As a matter of fact, the Civil War intrigues me a lot…
I do believe it has indeed its legacy still today… (although I don’t believe its main influence still today is about view on “war as a means” in politics :wink: )
I have many thoughts and questions about the war…
Is the war really defined by slavery? Or was it purely about power (Lincoln didn’t have a strong political will at first to completely implement abolition) and the fight for a strong central state. And isn’t that what still stand today …
Really interesting is the change in policies of parties. republicans were pro-washington, pro federation etc… Democrats originally had support in the South, confederal thinking.
Today, it seems a bit differently.
And then paleo vs neo conservatives. Perhaps the same conflict.

#88

Why are you putting quotations around the word “cheering” as if it was something I stated? And yes, I’m talking about “New Yorkers.”

  • I don’t understand why the views of the elderly in Europe are to be rejected … as if they are dead indeed…

Neither do I. But I don’t think they’re as rejected as ignored…

  • I don’t understand why you refer to US domestic racial struggles when talking about antisemitic (amongst others of course, gypsies, gays,…) razzia’s in occupied territories… when at the same time no one else is allowed to compare nazi Germany and the US on this matter…

When is “no one allowed to compare Nazi Germany and the US?” One can compare, but silly ****ing trite comparisons will be strongly disputed. I would also ask why you think antisemitism was limited to Europe?

You mean: if no one listens to arguements, do not waste time. Ok i’ll try to remember.
All I know now is that most of you guys discussing this mather don’t live in Europe, OR most of you simply are connected to all the “other” Europeans, th eones that seem to be outside my world. :lol:
The things I’m telling don’t need arguements over here.

Um, okay. I know English isn’t your first language, but I’m completely lost here…

#89

Then you’re talking about something completely irrelevant as the American South perceived itself as being very much “occupied by a foreign power” during Reconstruction. If you need more on this, then you can research the old axiom that civil wars are far more brutal than bi-national ones. One of my points that sailed over your head was that Union occupation of the South (hence Reconstruction) led to a century of civil strife and terrorism in the southern United States…

#90

Um, China is too busy targeting Taiwan with missiles to give a shit about Europe…

#91

If so, why then the USA constantly puts the more and more nuclear forces in Europe?Hardly to save the Taiwan.

#92

This is a quite fair point. Actualy the military instability provoke the inner political and economical riots inside USA.While the awerage americans start to wake up , the political elites seems try to suppress any form of real opposition. The situation reminds more and more the last years of Vietman war- the essential part of nation can’t answer what the american troops doing abroad.Instead of re-formed its eaternal policy and mobilizing of nation around the economical and social problems - american politics continie the agressive expansionism over planet.This way likely might will have ended badly for USA like for the most of fornmer empires in history.

#93

Targeting missiles on Taiwan? :shock:
China is very different from classic cold war superpowers…
They simply don’t wage war as the West has done.

#94

Referring to the hanging of black people in silly white worn out curtains? :frowning:
Europe had its portion of civil strife and terrorism as well in the hundred years you refer to. Yet the “new order” period is somewhat on a different scale.

#95

Because you replied on my posts on this matter.
Europeans hated and cheered at the Allied bombings. I was explaining the complex situation. If you reply with 9/11, it needs to refer to this complexity, which it obviously doesn’t.

Neither do I. But I don’t think they’re as rejected as ignored…

Yes you “think” just as I am thinking about the US. I live in Europe, I know many of the european elderly in my neighbourhood. You live in the US.
Yet what I think of the US needs to be rubish or obsolete, while your thinking about Europe needs to be the truth in here.
It is not because they are old or have passed away, their views are.
And one of those views is the fierce reluctance towards war as a means in any form.
The position against the Iraqi war was supported all over Europe. Young and old.

When is “no one allowed to compare Nazi Germany and the US?” One can compare, but silly ****ing trite comparisons will be strongly disputed. I would also ask why you think antisemitism was limited to Europe?

It wasn’t. But together with all other hatred and political murders, it was only in Nazi Occupation “systemized” on daily industrial life.

Um, okay. I know English isn’t your first language, but I’m completely lost here…

I’m not the only one with these opinions. That’s about the clue.

#96

While the average americans starts to wake up , the political elite seems try to suppress any form of real opposition.

Exactly. The main problem we face today is the controlling influence of the people who work behind the scenes, steering the direction of society, and the economy.
The elite as you call them, have successfully discouraged the expression of personal independence and political awareness by unlawfully arresting demonstrators, and members of the press. By designating free speech zones which limit more than promote free speech, conducting unreasonable searches and seizures of personal property, and intimidating the populace with the use of security cameras, swat teems, and the military; not to mention all the subtle brainwashing and misinformation which goes on in this country.

The situation reminds more and more the last years of Vietman war-.

Unfortunately, unlike with Vietnam, we lack widespread opposition to the current wars.
Some are gradually learning that they have a voice, lets hope its not too late to use it….

#97

I’m fascinated by Mr Steben’s opinion of American history. Interesting reading, but I don’t think Steben really has a very intimate knowledge of America or its history.

#98

Quote by Truce:
“Unfortunately, unlike with Vietnam, we lack widespread opposition to the current wars.
Some are gradually learning that they have a voice, lets hope its not too late to use it….”

You might find that it was the media driven opposition, and political interference that caused the Viet Nam war to end as it did. Was it also that voice you spoke of that caused an entire generation of soldiers to be treated as pariahs, and outcasts by their own people, and society ? Having a voice is a fine thing, and not everyone on Earth has that freedom. its another thing altogether to use that voice properly. Remember your responsibilties as a citizen when next election day comes around.

#99

Yes, Steben, the political parties have completely flipped their positions. Very ironic. Lincoln would be thrown out of the Republican Party today. It is very ironic. The South was traditionally Democratic because the North was Republican. But the South was nearly always (not entirely) very conservative and and mostly very racist even up until the present day. Nixon developed what was called the “southern strategy” which played to southern conservative interests; so did Ronald Reagan. Eventually the conservative South as exemplified by Senator Strom Thurmond and his Dixiecrats became Republicans. Ironically, Strom Thurmond had a black/white baby by one of his house servants.

Many defenders of the Confederacy love to blather about “states’ rights” and to insist that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery. Ridiculous. If slavery and the “right” to own slaves was not at issue there would have been no civil war. Period.

#100

Perhaps we should take this on another thread :wink:
It is my intuition the battle between “central (ic federal) power doctrine” and “independent states (confederal) doctrine” still lives on today in a very common way it did back then. Something found everywhere (including Belgium, very on the surface the recent years :wink: )…
Yes slavery was a major factor, but even that factor had many connections with classic economic / political dispute.

Neoconservatives amidst of the republicans, even falling back into laissez faire economics as much as they want, are what many conservatives in Europe call “Jacobinists”, abusers of ideological state power. Crusades, pseudoreligious fight against exis of evil, with or against us, etc … Robespierre would have loved neocons.