Firebombing of Korea cities in 1950-53

Serving during or in a war doesn’t automatically qualify anyone as an expert on it, or on how to win that or any other war. Your idols Hitler and Goering both served in WWI, but they never got past the sort of distorted understanding you have of that event. They also managed to lose the war they started to show how Germany was robbed of victory the first time around.

No, but I find it quite despicable that the young are arrogant enough to believe they know everything about the past. Did you serve in Nam? I assume not.

It’s a bloody sight better than sounding like an arch-Nazi with his head permanently stuck so far up his own arse that he sees the whole world through dense Nazi shit.

You’re a skilled troll and it’s been fun jousting with you, but if you’re going to keep it up you’ll have to find another playmate because you’re becoming predictably and tediously offensive with your increasingly naked Nazi views

I must say, I do love how you label me a Nazi and then try to label me a troll for promoting Nazism. You are the one who is using the label. Never did I say I was a fascist or a Nazi.

Oh who do i hear?
“they deserved it” and " proxy war against communism ".
The war without rules again.
Do we have the own Nazy in the forum guys?

I readed the article about this bombong raids in 1972. The victims were mostly civilians 1318 in Hanoi and 306 in Haiphong. Not too much :wink: Compare it with a bombing of Japane or Germany.
USAAF lost 15 B-52 mostly from the AAA rocet CA-75 which were not effective coz the radio interference apperature was widely applied.

Or compare it with Coventry and Rotterdam. Often people roll Coventry, Rotterdam, Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo etc into one as examples of the devastation of large scale bombing and impact on civilians. They’re not. The major Coventry raid on 14 November 1940 killed about 570 people. Upwards of about 600 died in Rotterdam on 14 May 1940. They’re minor compared with, say, Dresden and Tokyo.

If we wanted to compare the Hanoi casualty figures we could say that they were more than twice as bad as Coventry and Rotterdam.

I think that Hanoi had reasonably well developed air raid shelters, which minimised casualties.

Of course, Hanoi still doesn’t count as terror raids on any scale, because that term was invented by the Germans when the Allies started bombing their cities and applies only to raids on German cities. So we got the terms “Terrorangriff” for “terror raid” and “terror flieger” for terror flier. Apparently there was no need for these terms when Germany was bombing England and the Netherlands. :wink:

USAAF lost 15 B-52 mostly from the AAA rocet CA-75 which were not effective coz the radio interference apperature was widely applied.

I can’t find it, but I recall reading on some site that the initial losses occurred because the bombers turned after unloading in accordance with the standard practice for such raids. This caused them to alter their angle and upset or rendered useless their ?SAM detection systems? which were designed to work while the aircraft was flying straight and level, which made them more vulnerable. They altered the practice for later raids and losses dropped.

Some of us have that impression. But so far only members from Australia, Britain and Germany, so we could be wrong :wink: as we’re basing our opinion mostly on his views starting here http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4257&page=9

We must be wrong, because as he says at post #21 here

Never did I say I was a fascist or a Nazi.

His ideas about reclaiming Poland and restoring the glories of the Reich and so forth are just the expression of his independent views which, by pure chance, happen to coincide with Nazi ideas. :wink:

There are no rules in war. There are superficial legal obligations put in place, but subsequently violated by both sides. The notion of the “laws of war” is a facade which we use to hide what we see as our inner barbarities. We try to make our wars “humane”, but that is an oxymoron. If negotiations and diplomatic agreements were ever still an option, the parties involved wouldn’t be fighting a war.

AlbertSpeer, while I have called for your head in other areas of this forum, I must agree with your last posting. This is especially true if any nation has adopted a Total War doctrine, but in reality wars fought over resources or regime change could be classified as infinitely worse.

Having said this, I still don’t agree with your broader ideology.

Regards digger.

There are. I think you are confusing the fact that they are often broken, without consequences for offenders, with there being no rules. It’s like saying that there is no law against burglary because there is a lot of burglaries and the vast bulk of them don’t result in prosecutions.

There are superficial legal obligations put in place, but subsequently violated by both sides.

The obligations are not superficial, as Lt Calley found out.

I don’t think that your statement can be applied as a general proposition that all sides violate all rules equally in all wars. Everything depends on the circumstances.

Several factors seem to determine the extent of observance of the rules.

The enemy’s conduct can influence how the same nation or even the same troops respond. American and Australian troops routinely shot Japanese wounded in WWII because of the Japanese habit of playing dead and then detonating a grenade or shooting or stabbing Allied soldiers when they came within range. The same practice was not used by American or Australian soldiers fighting the Germans or Italians. Unlike the Americans whose troops generally fought in either Europe / North Africa or the Pacific rather than in both theatres, the Australian 6th and 7th Divisions fought in North Africa / Middle East and the Pacific. These troops did not shoot German, Italian or Vichy French wounded but provided them with whatever assistance they could manage. The same troops routinely shot Japanese wounded when fighting in the Pacific. The same troops who routinely accepted the surrender of German, Italian and Vichy French prisoners at times shot Japanese troops attempting to surrender because they couldn’t, or didn’t want to, handle prisoners. (Accepting the surrender of Italians in North Africa mightn’t prove much. The Australians wouldn’t have had enough ammunition to shoot them all. :smiley: )

The ethnic or cultural similarity of the opponents also seems to dictate the extent of observance of the rules. It’s harder to mistreat people like us. Common German behaviour in the East was entirely different to common German behaviour in the West. In part, this probably reflects the similarity German troops felt they shared with their opponents in the West, while they tended to regard Slavs as ethnically or culturally inferior. American and Australian behaviour against the Japanese reflected a contempt for what they saw as a barbaric race, based on experience during the war and other factors such as Japanese pre-war behaviour in China. Japanese behaviour against the Allies reflected a contempt for what they saw as an inferior race.

The political or other doctrines governing a nation in war also seem to dictate the extent of observance of the rules. Japanese behaviour in WWII was entirely different to behaviour in the war against Russia only a generation before. The difference was the existence of the new militarism underpinning the militarists running Japan in WWII. Similarly, extreme German behaviour in WWII was entirely different to German behaviour in WWI, barely a generation before. The difference was the existence of Nazi ideology which in many respects parallelled Japanese militarist and racial supremacy notions.

The notion of the “laws of war” is a facade which we use to hide what we see as our inner barbarities.

That’s a fair but bleak view. The laws of war are an attempt to minimise the harm war does, and to try to contain barbarity. It’s no different to other laws in having good intentions but being unable to stop the behaviour it proscribes. Murder has been against every code of law everywhere forever, but nobody has managed to stop it yet. That’s not a reason for regarding it as a useless law, or a façade used to hide behind the individual barbarity that murders represent.

Current military training in all developed nations is very strong in law of war instruction. Whether it works in the heat of certain battles is a different issue.

I think it rarely breaks down in general unless one side is disposed to observe the rules and the other isn’t. The obvious example is Japan (which actually announced that it would observe the Geneva conventions at the start of the war) which resorted to practices wholly foreign to the Allies. An earlier example is the Boers in the Boer War, where the Boers did the same thing to the British, and produced the first example of concentration camps, run by the British in response to guerrilla tactics they couldn‘t meet effectively. This introduces the special problems for conventional forces facing guerrillas or irregulars. A current example is Iraq which, like Vietnam, has the problem that conventional military forces are subject to random attacks by guerrillas and irregulars against whom they usually cannot respond effectively, or often at all. When the enemy doesn’t play by the rules it induces an attitude that as the other side has thrown away the rule book, then so can we. Being the target of attacks without an identifiable enemy who uses hit and run tactics or tactics such as road bombings in Iraq, inevitably produces pent-up hostility towards those forces which can be expected to result in extreme responses on some occasions when the conventional forces are acting against what they regard as the enemy or its supporters. All this begs the question of whether there should in law be any rules applying to combatants who don’t observe the rules of conventional warfare but who expect to be, or at least who are, protected by laws of war. But that’s a wider topic.

We try to make our wars “humane”, but that is an oxymoron.

I couldn’t agree more.

It’s also absurd in the extreme.

Does it make any difference whether you get nuked, napalmed, phosphorous burned, or blast burned; or hit by a dum-dum or an M-16 round that is inherently unstable in flight and will tear a much bigger hole in you than a dum-dum under certain conditions?

But these quaint distinctions are no different than other paradoxical attempts to regulate violence and its consequences, e.g. rules in boxing. When Mike Tyson bit Evander Hollyfield’s ear off everyone was appalled. But if he’d stuck to belting him senseless over the next hour, and maybe rendering him a vegetable or even killing him in the process, it would have been alright and everyone would have thought it was a fine entertainment. Or amateur boxers wearing head protection but professionals not (possibly on the grounds that professionals have less brain to damage anyway :smiley: )

If negotiations and diplomatic agreements were ever still an option, the parties involved wouldn’t be fighting a war.

True, but there’s the old line that war is the continuation of politics by other means.

It’s not unusual for modern wars, and warlike conflicts, to be resolved, or at least for the parties to try to resolve them, by diplomatic contacts during the conflict rather than on the battlefield. Even Japan was trying to end it’s war in WWII by diplomatic approaches to the Allies in 1945, albeit mostly and rather foolishly through Russia which had no interest in aiding that process. Of course, they are impelled to resort to diplomatic efforts only when the war isn’t going their way.

It’s hardly an original suggestion, but if the politicians and others who start wars and other international conflicts had to fight them themselves, and better still fight them out to the death between the politicians on each side before the real war could start, they’d be a lot less keen and we‘d all be better off.

Well although it sound cynically but i have to agree with you particulary.
I read the article where one of american high commander expressed this point as " During the war the humanism is a waekness". I don’t remember who it was exactly.
But i good read a interesting article of Joseph Kay ( american left-view journalist)

There was an interesting exchange, during a discussion between President Harry Truman and Secretary of War Henry Stimson on June 6, 1945 that gives a sense of the manner in which the American government considered the question of the mass annihilation of Japanese civilians.

Stimson records in a memorandum that he raised certain pragmatic concerns with the area bombing of Japanese cities being carried out by the US Air Force: “I told [Truman] I was anxious about this feature of the war for two reasons: first, because I did not want to have the United States get the reputation of outdoing Hitler in atrocities; and second, I was a little fearful that before we could get ready the Air Force might have Japan so thoroughly bombed out that the new weapon [the atom bomb] would not have a fair background to show its strength. He laughed and said he understood” . Stimson was concerned that the wanton destruction of Japanese cities would disrupt plans for the use of the atom bomb because there would be no “fair background,” that is, a suitably populated and intact urban center. The conversation also demonstrates that at this point the United States completely dominated Japan militarily, able to destroy its cities virtually at will.
Stimson, Henry. Henry Stimson Papers, Sterling Library, Yale University. Available at the National Security

So with laugh the mst. Truman decided to burn the 100 000 of peoples on political purposes. I think he was like Hitler or Stalin at this moment.
The cynism of so called democratic leaders sometimes could behave themself even worst then the dictators.( Dictators at least has a principles of ideology):wink:
But i still don’t understand your point.
May be you think if the “rules of war” is not existed then the every means are good?:wink:
If the Nazy could “explaine” the mass murdering the “lower races peoples” simply coz they had not enought food for them, does it mean the war crime is admitted by you as inevitable thing during the war?
Does it mean Nurenberg tribunal was not legitime to convict the Nazy leader for the war crime?

Stimson records in a memorandum that he raised certain pragmatic concerns with the area bombing of Japanese cities being carried out by the US Air Force: “I told [Truman] I was anxious about this feature of the war for two reasons: first, because I did not want to have the United States get the reputation of outdoing Hitler in atrocities; and second, I was a little fearful that before we could get ready the Air Force might have Japan so thoroughly bombed out that the new weapon [the atom bomb] would not have a fair background to show its strength. He laughed and said he understood” . Stimson was concerned that the wanton destruction of Japanese cities would disrupt plans for the use of the atom bomb because there would be no “fair background,” that is, a suitably populated and intact urban center. The conversation also demonstrates that at this point the United States completely dominated Japan militarily, able to destroy its cities virtually at will.

I don’t recall there being such a clear and simple difference in reasons for the use of the atom bobm, but it might have happened. My recollection is that there was some anguished debate in America leadership circles about whether to use the atom bombs.

My recollection also is that the main factor that encouraged their use was not a demonstration of power but the fact that the Americans, and to a lesser extent the other Western Allies, were preparing for the invasions of the Japanese home islands with expectations of at least a million Allied casualties, mainly American, and undoubtedly several times that number of Japanese casualties.

The atom bombs were seen as the lesser of two evils, for both sides.

As indeed it turned out.

Just read this thread from the beginning.
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4209&highlight=Invasion+japane+home+islands

Rising Sun:

I agree that there are “rules” if you want to get technical, but the burglary comparison isn’t a good one. In that example, there are actually societal standards that most of us respect and adhere to. In war, the rules only serve as obstacles to all sides involved(unless we are talking about sides that just don’t care, like the Japanese of WWII), and instead of respecting them from a legal or moral standpoint, we simply work aggressively to find the most convenient way to circumvent them, or disobey them undetected.

And I completely agree with the point that those who regularly break the Geneva Conventions shouldn’t be entitled to the same treatment. First of all, it’s inane that we give the insurgents in Iraq today legal standing. And once the North Vietnamese broke the Tet cease-fire, all gloves should have been off.

There is breaking rules and there is breaking rules. We Brits generally take the view that there is only one rule - don’t get caught.

Then, again, we also have a sense of fair play and, therefore, have a reluctance to going about killing indiscriminately.

For example. During the Borneo Confrontation, the RAF requested that they carpet-bomb an area of jungle. As mentioned elsewhere, bombing areas of jungle can be largely ineffective. Denis Healey, the, then, Minister of Defence refused permission on the grounds that A. it could cause the deaths of the native tribespeople which resided in the jungle, and B. it could have escalated the situation by not only generating stronger support for Sukarno at home and thus enabling him to commit greater numbers of forces to the conflict, but also generate sympathy and support from Sukarno’s neighbours with the possiblity of drawing them into the conflict also.

Britain did break the rules, particularly by the use of ‘Claret’ patrols, but by using a more stealthy approach and by considering and recruiting the local tribes to the cause they succeeded in defeating the Indonesia both militarily and poltically.

Claret Patrols: http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Borneo/Claret.htm

http://sas.narfed.com/Borneo.htm

[i]"His greatest weaknesses were his passion for numbers and his belief that wars could be won by bombing alone. We used to have breakfast together in Brussels before every meeting of NATO defence ministers. I once asked him how things were going in Vietnam. “Just fine,” he replied. “Next month we’ll be dropping twice the tonnage of bombs we are dropping this month.”

In fact, the excessive use of bombers in Vietnam turned the whole of the local population against the west. At exactly the same period, when Britain was engaged in the “war of confrontation” against Indonesia, I refused to let the RAF drop a single bomb from an aircraft, relying wholly on fighting in the Borneo jungles with Gurkhas and our Special Forces - the SAS and SBS.

As a result, whereas millions of civilians were killed in Vietnam, and America lost the war there, in Borneo Britain won the war with fewer casualties than on the roads over a Bank Holiday weekend - probably the reason why in Britain nobody now remembers the war of confrontation, while Americans will never forget Vietnam.

As he later admitted, McNamara had too little understanding of politics. Although in Europe his advisors could make up for this, in Vietnam he had no advisors with a relevant understanding of the area. Moreover, his actions, too, often cast doubt on the views he expressed to his allies."

"[/i]http://film.guardian.co.uk/features/featurepages/0,4120,1177732,00.html

And I completely agree with the point that those who regularly break the Geneva Conventions shouldn’t be entitled to the same treatment. First of all, it’s inane that we give the insurgents in Iraq today legal standing.

The insurgents’ legal standing in Iraq is generally limited to being a defendant in a trial for waging unprivileged war and / or for war crimes http://www.crimesofwar.org/special/Iraq/news-iraq4.html. Trials are appropriate for people not clearly involved as a combatant in an action as their guilt has to be established. If Coalition troops are adequately trained in marksmanship, there should not be a need for trials for insurgents clearly involved as combatants in an action. :wink:

One view on Al Qaeda (and Taliban) legal status under the conventions. http://chinesejil.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/3/1/135.pdf

One problem in Iraq is that most of the violence now is not directed against Coalition forces but is between various Iraqi authorities and groups and various external groups fighting in Iraq. None of this is governed by the laws of war.

I have to disappoint you. A country that signed Geneva convention obliges to apply it to any enemy even those ones that didn’t sign it.

That was the case with Germany in WW2. They signed convention but did not follow it on the East. USSR did not sign the convention, but followed it’s own rules that were very close to Geneva convention appart from few points.

The result on the POW death rate is well known!

I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with various points of view on this thread. In most of the situations discussed, I would suppose it would depend on what one is trying to achieve. Personally, I do not go with the obita dictum of the end justifying the means - where does it end?
Revenge is no justification. If, for example, the U.S, had ‘removed glove’, what would it have achieved, how would it have changed things?

The glove was off, anyway. Phoenix was, among other things, an assassination program that aimed to, and to a reasonable extent did, disrupt and damage the VC and its ability to operate in SVN. It was also counterproductive in a number of respects which, depending upon the analysis one wants to make, outweighed any of its benefits.

Gloves-off methods usually are counter productive.

The israelis opted for the ‘Iron Fist’ approach and they’ve been fghting for fifty yeas. The US have followed their example in Iraq to no avail.

There is also the issue of maintaining one’s own standards, dignity and humanity.

This assumes, of course, that one had them to begin with.

‘I never cheated. I never appealed for a decision unless I thought a batsman was out, I never argued with the umpire… From the eight years of school life this code became the moral framework of my existence. It never left me.’ CLR James.

After telling a press conference that he’s a cricket person, George Bush will get the chance to prove what he knows about the game when he is taken to a match as part of his visit to Pakistan, The Daily Telegraph reports. :slight_smile: