Yea, I know. America is always the bad guy. :roll: It’s a convenient excuse.
As for the chemical weapons, have you not seen the video footage in the possesion of the UN which shows thousands of fleeing Kurds in northern Iraq having poison gas dropped on them by Iraqi pilots in their Migs? Oh! You don’t want to mention that eh? Sadam played games with the UN repeatedly over a period of several years of saying that he would allow UN inspectores to search Iraq, then as the date approached for them to enter Iraq to inspect, he changed his mind. Then he agreed again, then he changed his mind again. He did this at least 3 or 4 times over a period of several years to simply waste time. If you don’t believe me, look into the resolutions of the UN and Sadam’s repeated aggreement/dissagreements. He wasted several years doing that to waste all the time he could possibly need to destroy the chemical weapons he possesed, like the gas that video shown to the Iraqi embassadoe to the UN watched in the UN meetings on TV which showed thousands of people in Iraq being mass murdered.
What did the UN do to force him to finally comply with their resolutions requiring Iraq to allow inspections? Nothing. And what did they do when Iraq repeatedly refused UN inspectors to inspect specific facilities in Iraq? Nothing. They did nothing at all. Where have you been for the last 10 years???
Well, we know this. Iraq will be a democracy. We know that unemployment not being better than it was in the past is not the fault of the war or an excuse for saying the war will not help them in the future. We also know that if 800 billion dollars is a part the cost of insuring that in 2150 AD there we all do not live in an Orwellina world. I suppose next you’ll say that the downfall of the Soviet Union is not a good thing for the world either. :roll:
Indeed. We have seen in other posts quoting you British citizens and the British government that Gurkhas are treated as second-rate people by Britain (often mistreated by british officers) and their pensions are based on those of the soldiers in the Indian Army - a fraction of that of a British national’s pension. And you want to blather about Americans paying our foreign soldiers the same as our native citizens and not being used in an ethnic group as front line troops?
'The Gurkhas were the main force deployed by the British against Indonesian forces who tried to take over Brunei in the early 1960s, fighting off a series of incursions.
'Mr Blair’s gaffe was made worse by the fact that the troops on offer were from the 2nd Bn the Royal Gurkha Rifles, which, as a result of its service, is still funded by the Sultan of Brunei to defend his country.
'The Prime Minister, just back from holiday in Egypt, had hoped to defuse the criticism he faced by not cutting short his break to head Britain’s aid effort and articulate the nation’s feelings about the disaster.'http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/30-5377.asp
I guess it would have cost more to send British nationals in to do the work, since Gurkhas are paid less?
“Around 300 Gurkha troops are being sent to Ivory Coast to help take Britons fleeing the strife-torn West African country to safety.”
For crying out loud. You have no idea what you are talking about. Come live in the US for 2 years and go away with a new understanding of loyalty and patriotism.
Indeed. We have seen in other posts quoting you British citizens and the British government that Gurkhas are treated as second-rate people bt Britain and their pensions are based on those of the soldiers in the Indian Army - a fraction of that of a British national’s pension. And you want to blather about Americans paying our foreign soldiers the same as our native citizens and not being used in an ethnic group as front line troops?
Good gracious. You are spouting one-sided falicy![/quote]
Again, you change direction to one that you prefer to shore up what you believe to be your argument.
When did I mention how or what you pay your troops?
Once more, you claimed, repeatedly, incessantly, at length and in error, that the US military did not use non-US-citizens.
I, among others, showed you that they do.
End of conversation.
recent reports has shown that desert storm in 1991 already destroyed iraq’s ability to build such weapons, those weapons used by the iraqis are before desert storm, so far americans has found nothing in iraq, do not use outdate info to support your agrument please
and i do not hate americans, i have many friends that came from americans, who i hate is your government and its policy
For crying out loud. You have no idea what you are talking about. Come live in the US for 2 years and go away with a new understanding of loyalty and patriotism.[/quote]
Really, Ironman, this selective quoting of posts fools no one.
How dare you arrogate to yourself a sense of national loyalty any higher than that of a Brit, Canadian, Indian, Italian, Portuguese. German, Japanese, Egyptian or any other nationality?
What arrogant, self righteous, self-centred, self-opinionated, blinkered self-love.
I would not dream of claiming that a Brit loves his/her country any more than a Russian, a Swiss, a Swede, an Omani an American, or any other nationality, loves theirs.
That doesn’t make the Americans unique.
Such people exist in every country, and there are a lot more of them in yours than mine! I believe you refer to the 2 or 3 people that refused to serve in Iraq that the liberal panty press tried to turn into a media circus? Good gracious dude. Listen to yourself.
The unjust war? Dearl Lord, another utter hypocrite. Should you not be bitching at your own government, because Britain is in there with us. What a pathetic hypocrite. I’d say you’re an inch or two from being one of those dissenters. 8)[/quote]
Isn’t FW-190 Pilot Canadian?
Why should he bitch at his government because the Brits are fighting alongside the US?
(Edited to change FW’s nationality to (hopefully), the correct one. My apologies to ypu FW)
Such people exist in every country, and there are a lot more of them in yours than mine! I believe you refer to the 2 or 3 people that refused to serve in Iraq that the liberal panty press tried to turn into a media circus? Good gracious dude. Listen to yourself.
The unjust war? Dearl Lord, another utter hypocrite. Should you not be bitching at your own government, because Britain is in there with us. What a pathetic hypocrite. I’d say you’re an inch or two from being one of those dissenters. 8)[/quote]
Isn’t FW-190 Pilot German?
Why should he bitch at his government because the Brits are fighting alongside the US?[/quote]
nah, i am canadian, haha
i have no idea why should i bich my own government for that too, ironman doesnt make any kind of sense in here
Outdated info? You complained that the was was unjust, I simply showed you that Irq had chemical weapons, it has been proven, the UN has achnowledged it, and did nothing to stop it. What are you complaining about now?
For crying out loud. You have no idea what you are talking about. Come live in the US for 2 years and go away with a new understanding of loyalty and patriotism.[/quote]
I have worked on an American summer camp as a riflery instructor. I got an insight into American patriotism, although I wouldn’t claim an encyclopaedic knowledge. I’ve also lived in Austria and the UK, as well as travelling extensively in Germany and a little in the US, Canada, and New Zealand. My experience suggests that everyone is proud of their country. Even the Germans, who are ashamed of some aspects of their past, are on the whole proud to be German. I am not saying that Americans are less patriotic and loyal than others, merely that it is manifest in different ways in different countries. I thought I should spell this out to prevent malicious misrepresentation by certain board members.
I note that IRONMAN thinks that two years is the suitable minimum length of time required to get a feeling for the strength of patriotism in a country. To support his statement, I’d like to know which countries he has lived in for at least this length of time. I’d expect a fairly long list, well distributed around the globe, taking in each continent as well as first and third world countries to provide the representative sample of world patriotism required to support his claim.
IRONMAN: To discuss Gurkhas, their treatment and welfare standards, please visit www.arrse.co.uk . You have been invited there before. It’s a forum visited by a large number of ex- and currently serving personnel from all of HM Armed Forces (although predominantly Army), and a number of NATO guests, including US Military. Perhaps you could visit the ‘Multinational HQ’ sub-forum to post a question about what other countries’ personnel think of the Gurkhas and their treatment. Or, pick any other relevant sub-forum to discuss this with Soldiers and Officers who have had the privilege to serve with Gurkhas.
How dare I? How dare you! You are blowing smoke. American patriotism is renowned. None compares.
Your hatred of the US is unfounded. The US has done more to stop oppression in the world than any other nation. The US has also:
Given more money from contributions made from the pockets of American citizens for AIDS and other disease research and combat than any nation in the world.
Given more government money for those causes.
Sacrifieced hundreds of thousands of lived to free Europe from tyrany in 2 world wars, when we could have done nothing across the ocean and simply watched the events unfold.
Given more money an human resources to combat hunger and disease in Africa and around the world. The US givs more food to starving Africans each year than most countries can grow in 3. Freely!
One of the most execrable examples of this flourishing anti-Americanism was an op-ed piece in the London Daily Telegraph on May 8 by the noted British novelist, Margaret Drabble, titled, “I loathe America, and what it has done to the rest of the world.” By her prose, Dame Margaret indicates quite clearly that she, like so many European media outlets, most notably the British Broadcasting Co., is suffering from SAHAS. So infected with SAHAS are Dame Margaret and her fellow-loathers at the BBC that they have preferred that Saddam Hussein’s cruel dictatorship were still in power rather than see the glimmerings of democracy in that tragic land. Fortunately SAHAS was not deep-rooted in the beleaguered European democracies during World War II, otherwise Dame Margaret and her ilk would be speaking German today.
Now the reason I raise the question of gratitude is that for a century U.S. military and politico-economic power and American lives have been devoted to the successful liberation of enslaved or endangered peoples from dictatorships. In fact, the 20th century will be known as a century when genocidal tyrannies were destroyed and turned into democracies. Without the efficacy and unstinting dedication of U.S. power, the world would still be in thrall to dictatorships of all kinds: Fascist, Communist, Nazi, Nationalist, Theocratic. Quite possibly this liberation came about because of the effective working of an Anglo-American alliance in World War II and in postwar Europe, the Marshall Plan and NATO. It is the United States that has made possible today’s European Union, which is becoming the most powerful generator of the anti-American crusade.
Here’s a list of countries that the US has sent it’s men to to fight in and die to help them defeat oppression and tyrany:
Afghanistan
Austria
Albania
Belgium
Bulgaria
Croatia
Czech Republic
Denmark
East Germany
El Salvador
Estonia
Finland
Germany
Greece
Grenada
Hungary
Italy
Japan
Latvia
Lithuania
Netherlands
Nicaragua
Norway
Philippines
Poland
Romania
Russian Federation
Singapore
Slovakia Slovenia
South Korea
Soviet Union
Taiwan
Turkey
Ukraine
U.S. foreign policy with the 1947 Truman Doctrine saved Greece and Turkey. In 1950, U.S. military force saved South Korea, and later prevented China from invading Taiwan, today a robust democracy and an economic wonder. I would also include the overthrow of Iraq’s Saddam Hussein and the ethnic dictatorship of Serbia over the rest of what was Yugoslavia. That’s 37 countries and almost a billion people — 966 million, according to 1966 population statistics — living in relative freedom.
And does the easing of dictatorships in China and Vietnam stem from a sudden ascent of communist politburo virtue or could it be U.S. pressure on the question of human rights plus the need of U.S. markets and loans? Is the fact that Latin America is overwhelmingly democratic just an accidental happening?
Quite a record. What that liberation record shows is the expenditure of hundreds of thousands of American lives and billions and billions of U.S. dollars. Can any other country make such a claim? France, which collaborated with Nazi Germany and supported to the very end Saddam Hussein’s foul dictatorship? France, the most anti-American country in Europe, ought to award Margaret Drabble the ribbon of the Legion of Honor. Perhaps it already has.
In any case, the United States just goes right on pursuing its unavoidable mission, fully aware, as the man said: “Gratitude is not a normal feature of political life.”
I know you will continue your anti-American blather. It’s expected. But you cannot change the facxt that the US is undeserving of it, and we Americans have never done anything but shrug it off. We know that we do things for the benefit of others and are spit on for it. It is simply a way of expressing jealousy.
Check the facts and you will discover that even the United Nations, touted as the entity with legitimacy to “police the world”, has ONLY supported military conflict on two occasions since its inception on Oct 24, 1945: The Korean Conflict of 1950 and the Gulf War of 1991 (both of which the U.S. bore the majority of the burden for fighting and winning)
What about all the other threats and atrocities that have afflicted this world since the U.N. began?:
The U.S. countered the former Soviet Union’s attempt to spread communism and protected Europe from being invaded AGAIN… was that “policing the world”?
In Bosnia “ethnic cleansing” was killing thousands while the UN struggled with how to manage the crisis, and America stepped up to end the fighting… was that “policing the world”?
The UN could only “debate” the genocide occurring in Kosovo as the U.S. led NATO into action and removed Milosevic… was that “policing the world”?
The U.S. removed the oppressive Taliban regime and terrorist camps from Afghanistan in response to the horror of 9/11/01… was that “policing the world”?
The U.S. currently ensures that communist China doesn’t militarily reclaim democratic Taiwan… is this “policing the world”?
America currently defends South Korea and Japan against certain invasion from North Korea… is this “policing the world”?
What purpose do other UN security council member nations serve? Are other countries like pacifist France ever accused of policing the world?.. of course not–like so many others, it CONSISTENTLY TAKES NO ACTION! If you were to wake up tomorrow and there was no longer a United States of America, the fate of many nations would be in peril and global security would enter a frightening state.
Secretary Colin L. Powell responded to this same “world policemen” criticism very succinctly during a Foreign Press Center Briefing on April 15, 2003:
"With respect to the United States being the policemen of the world, we do not wish to be the policemen of the world. When you look at our agenda and when you look at what the President has committed his administration to – $5 billion a year more for aid under the Millennium Challenge Account, $15 billion a year more, $15 billion more for HIV/AIDS, Free Trade Agreements with nations throughout the world, getting the Doha round of World Trading Organization negotiations moving – his agenda is one to help people to a better life. His agenda is one to work with friends and alliances throughout the world. But at the same time, the President’s agenda is one that is based on principles, one that’s based on a foreign policy that rests on not only our value system and our democratic political system and our strong economy, but our military force when we have a need for it.
We do not seek war. We do not look for wars. We don’t need wars. We don’t want wars. But we will not be afraid to fight them when those wars are necessary to protect the American people, to protect our interests, to protect our friends. And when you look at where we have been “a policeman” for the last 12 years, is there one of those countries that we have imposed ourselves? Has one of those countries become an American colony? Has one of those countries become an American state?
Kuwait, we went there in 1991 to free a country, a Muslim country that had been invaded by another Muslim country. In Kosovo, we helped Muslim people. In Afghanistan we had to go after terrorism, and we did, and put down the Taliban, and we’re still working to get all the remaining elements of the Taliban and the al-Qaida rounded up in Afghanistan. And what did we then do? We put in place a system that would allow President Karzai to start to rebuild an Afghan society and an Afghan Government and an Afghan economy. And we rallied the international community to help Afghanistan.
And now here, in Iraq, 17, 18 resolutions, whatever the number is condemning this regime, finding this regime guilty; and the regime said: We don’t care what the international community thinks. We’re going to continue to terrorize people, we’re going to continue to use our oil wells – not to build hospitals and schools – we’re going to use our oil wells to build weapons of mass destruction and to deprive people that we don’t like in our own country.
And, finally, the United States was willing to step up and say this cannot continue, and led a willing coalition into Operation Iraqi Freedom. And so if this is what somebody would characterize negatively as policemen of the world, it was when a policeman was needed. And we were willing to do it with like-minded members of coalitions that went into these places.
Immediately upon leaving the borders of the United States of America it becomes painfully apparent that there is nothing but criticism and disdain for America, its government and even its citizens. This is not a localized phenomenon by region… it is all of Europe, all of Asia, Africa, South America and even bordering neighbors, Canada and Mexico. As Americans, this opinion coming from the rest of the “free world”, in particular, dumbfounds us as we were arm in arm fighting the world threat of Communism until just a few years ago.
However, with the fall of the Soviet Union and Communism as a major threat (defeated like Nazism and Fascism, thanks to America), a multi-polar world of European nations, Japan, China and the United States were predicted to exist in the wake. What in fact emerged instead was a unipolar world; the U.S. bestriding the globe like a colossus, more dominant in every field of endeavor-- economic, military, diplomatic, cultural, even linguistic --than any other nation since Rome. There are many reasons for this… European countries embracing Socialism and unwilling to spend on research, Japan locking itself in tradition and China still clinging to failing Communism, to name a few… So, what we are learning today is that other nations are not happy to simply share (and they DO SHARE) in the success of the U.S. – they prefer instead to revel in ENVY and resentment!
And what did we do when we had finished our work? We tried to leave those places, and have left those places, better than we found them and under leadership of their own people. And this is not just a recent phenomenon for the United States. This is always the way we have done it. And just look at our record over the last 50 or 60 years of what we have done in the aftermath of conflict; it is a proud record that all Americans and all freedom-loving people throughout the world should be proud of.
,i sound so stupid :oops: (no comments)