Uhm, former SS-Gruppenführer (Lieutenant General) Heinz Lammerding died on January 13, 1971 in Bad Tölz/Bavaria.
The officer murdered by the Marquis was Obersturmbannführer Helmut Kämpfe (CO of 3rd armoured battalion/Regiment “Der Führer” of 2nd SS "Das Reich).
Lammerding was indeed sentenced to death (in absentia) by a french court but he was never handed over by Germany.
Fascinating would love to see more, if you have the time and other folks here don’t mind.
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
Very interesting indeed, just Gerhard Ludwig Weinberg isn’t a german but a US-american historian of german-jewish origin. Just a note in the margin.
Comimg right up…just let me have a short break, and I’ll give you the entire thing!
Here’s mine:
Are you actually surprised that the Vichy government and its army was shooting at the British and the Americans and not at the German and Italians?
Here’s a clue:the Vichy government was actually a collaborationist state and enjoyed its friendship with other fascists regime and even if they weren’t,they had to show their support or Germany would control the rest of the country.The “rafle du Vel d’hiv” being one example of collaboration and the most shameful event of French history.
As to the attitude towards Jews in France, well let’s put it that way:Before the holocaust became known and proven,hating Jewish people was actually politically correct in most of European countries and not only in Germany.Anything goes wrong in your country?Blame the Jews! A plague?The Jews!Economic disaster?Guess who?
It was like a tradition from older times that carried on until 1945.
It’s only after the war that people’s view and opinion towards the Jewish community changed to the point they gave them a country.
Well I think, the phraseology “gave them a country” might be pushing things a bit far in that for instance, the British in the 1940s early post war period had so much military kit on hand they were doing things like burning aircraft on airfields and digging pits and dumping them in to them to clear out the surplus to requirements equipment and Britain was chronically short of foreign exchange and yet the only aircraft the Israeli airforce could get hold of were a few Czech built Me Bf 109s which agravated the allready serious problems arising from this design’s narrow track undercarriage through the new engine prop combination. Meanwhile the newly emergent State was theatened by attack by several regularly equipped and established Armed forces of a number of Arab states such as for example Jordan’s Arab Legion.
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
What I meant is that Israel would have taken far more years to exist if it wasn’t for the suffering of the Jewish people during the Holocaust.
Germany ended up occupying Vichy anyway, and as Mr. Weinberg points out, NOT A SHOT FIRED IN ANGER…
Vichy troops, in every engagement that I’m aware of in Trans-Jordan were given ample opportunity to lay down their arms peacefully, or to switch sides and become “Free French”…There are not many examples of wholesale switching of sides…NONE, in fact.
You wonder why Churchill had no time for co-operation with Germany? Well, the Vichy experience proved him correct in his assumptions…too bad that the general populace of Vichy did not agree…and what ever happened to the celebrated French pechant for standing up against oppression? Examine the record of the Maquis and you won’t find much in the way of activity inside the border of Vichy France. I have even discussed this issue with French people that I know very well who were alive at the time and residing in France, and Mr Gohier informs me that David Irving’s assertion that “German occupation was, in the main, very cordial and correct,” was in fact, true.
John further stated that the Germans had some kind of respect for French culture and the French people…and that when the Americans arrived, “they simply flattened EVERYTHING…”
John wondered, as I do, why France’s performance in WW2 did not show far more grit and substance. They blamed the English for the fiasco in 1940, and a popular uprising of the Slovakian type or the wide and terrible partisan actions in the Ukraine were just unheard of.
France’s post-war posturing, a lot of it anti-American, can be traced directly to this period. De Gaulle went out of his way to distance France from their American allies during his tenure as President…do you want me to go on?
The story of France in WW2 has yet to be told, and Weinberg is like others in hoping that the opening of French archives will shed some light on the entire issue…
I will give you the rest of his article soon…but meantime, ponder and hold on to your seats…You should see what he has to say about GERMANY and ENGLAND! (diabolical laughter!!!)
Furthermore, your comments regarding the rest of Europe being quite anti-Semitic are not lone statements…
I have heard this from others, and read the same…
It seems that the history of the Holocaust, it’s causes and reasons, has yet to be fully written as well. World War 2 still has many uncovered secrets to ponder over. The next 10-15 years could see a total revolution in the way we look at this conflict…
Exciting time to be interested in the historical record of the period…
Hi B5N2KATE, what I think gets most people confused about France is that they assume, that France and the United Kingdom are natural allies, where as the natural alliance in Europe is between Germany and the United Kingdom. Off hand I can’t remember when the alliance between Germany and Britain broke down but at a guess, it would have been on Germany’s insistence on competing with the Royal Navy prior to WW1. Furthermore, whilst France did give strong support to the United States in the early days of the formation of that country, once the United States becomes a major player in its own right, it then gets lumped in to the generalized threats and competition to French interests as an Anglo-Saxon English speaking state. All that said, in respect of individual French and their dealings with the Third Reich, one must be careful to remember just what the ordinary French people were dealing with in making criticism of their behaviour during the occupation, as the example of Oradour sur glane graphically illustrates and one should draw a sharp distinction between the active collaboration with the Third Reich of many French citizens and the unspoken sullen resentment at being occupied by the Third Reich felt by many other French citizens.
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
Couple of comments:
- If you want to know why France did so poorly in WW2, go into any French church and read the names on the WW1 memorial. If you’re in a rural area, the chances are the number of names on the list will be greater than the total population currently living there. France had the heart ripped out of it in WW1, with the male population of military age being decimated in the literal, classical sense. UK ground troops often fought poorly for the same reason.
- De Gaulle’s estrangement from the US has a postwar cause - Suez. They felt deeply betrayed by the US over it (justifiably, IMHO), and ever since French foreign/industrial policy has been such as to ensure that no foreign power ever has a veto over them again. The UK felt equally badly used about Suez, but the reaction there was instead to ensure that it was never seperated from the US on anything important again.
And the idea that the French were inherently cowardly is pretty absurd. They suffered heavy casualties in the Battle for France, and tended to do well when the shock of the Schwerpunkt was softened by the wearing down of the panzer arm. Specifically, ironically after the battle had been decided and the French gov’t was on the verge of collapse, did the French offer serious resistance in the hedgerows of Normandy when the Germans were forced to rely on conventional infantry and artillery battles.
The French military system, just as the Soviets, was seriously flawed and unable to cope with the Wehrmacht’s fast moving command and control because they simply moved at a much slower pace. Add to that critical errors that the French and BEF commands made such as leaping into Belgium and refusing to recognize the potential of the technology that they themselves possessed. Once “Sickle Cut” went through the Ardennes, there was little that could have been done.
Vercors is a very different sort of France to that of the Paris elites
http://www.resistance-drome.org/uk/index.html
http://books.google.co.uk/books?q=drome+resistance+&btnG=Search+Books
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer