Gettysburg

Don’t be ashamed. I drove by it also, and I’m unable to recitfy this summer.

Good post Britelite. Food for thought.

I’m still getting my head around the idea of loyalty to the state first, but then, I would suppose that if one considers the early history and the emergence fo the US as a whole - the federal and state legislation which lends it self to the State being upper most would have made sense when the US was younger, but I have always understood that Americans are always Americans first and foremost. Then again, perhaps that is just my misunderstanding. I imagine that it has been a part of the mending of the nation which had to be done after the civil war, to be American above all?

As I understand it, the President is not allowed to make use of the National Guard, without the permission of the individual State Governor?

As a Pom, unlike me with states in a federation that don’t always agree on what’s best for the national commonwealth, that makes sense to you because you don’t have provinces or states, but if you think of the regional allegiances of the Welsh or Scots or Irish, it’s not so different to the American situation.

If the UK had a civil war today where everything got thrown in the pot, what would be the likely geographical divisions (ignoring the lowland Scots, who have always been a bit unreliable ;))?

You might want to plan a trip fairly soon. Corporate, soulless whores have talked on and off about turning the site into one goddamned more shopping mall and parking lot that America doesn’t really need, especially on such hallowed ground…

As I understand it, the President is not allowed to make use of the National Guard, without the permission of the individual State Governor?

The President is allowed to Federalize the National Guard, which is exactly what both Ike and Kennedy did.

Was there really a single shared attitude that you could call ‘the South’ even in the 1950’s - 60’s, as distinct from some fairly common attitudes about certain issues? I’m wondering if the different histories and sources of populations and economic circumstances produced a range of different states with their own attitudes which, like the US today, fits a certain stereotypical picture in the minds of outsiders but which doesn’t recognize the vast diversity within. Segregation of race was quite prevalent into the 60’s. Support for the civil rights initiative grew slowly and painfully. Black activists were, for the most part, peaceful men and women asking to be given fair and equal treatment as citizens, rights guaranteed by the Constitution. The movement gained impetus when John and Robert Kennedy recognized the injustice. This culminated in 1964 with the ratification of the Civil Right’s Act and became the turning point with the Federal government’s official support. White Southern legislators and officials refused to acknowledge Federal authority resulting in violent assaults on demonstrators throughout the South. National Guard(state) troops were mobilized and deployed. Federal officials responded with US Army units. The country was near the onset of Civil War. Thankfully states backed down averting another tragedy. No unification of the states took place other than to say state governments dealt with the issue in similar fashion. Southern states were primarily agrarian economies. Agriculture is still a major economic component but manufacturing and technology have resulted in a diverse business base.

You mentioned that in the Civil War southerners enlisted essentially to their state’s colours rather than the CSA, which suggests that there wasn’t any unified notion of being ‘the South’ as distinct from fighting a common cause against a common enemy, although issues about raising state militias might have been more responsible for the state enlistments. The CSA was the mechanism that allowed states to present a united front against the Federals. The enemy was the commonality. Interestingly the CSA adopted the US Constitution less the amendments dealing with slavery.

Did Southerners’ identification with ‘the South’ precede the Civil War, or was it forged by and followed that war, and strengthened by a united resentment of the North and its treatment of the South after rather than during the war? In the years following the War Northerners(a few Southerners also) known as carpetbaggers exploited the South for profit. The economy was wrecked as a result of the war. Cotton the most valuable pre-war export, was no longer in great demand. Citizens equated exploitation to Yankee domination. Members of my family were discussing this perceived aggression in the 1970’s. You don’t here much resentment expressed publicly today but occasionally I will hear a remark.

[i]The “wounds” of the War refused to heal due to this exploitation. Many Southern political and military leaders promoted unification. Those efforts were largely negated. IMHO the South as a whole only recovered from the effects of the War and aftermath during the WWII years. The attack on Pearl Harbor provided the South with a “dignified” method of rejoining the Union.

The constitutionality of the act of secession has been discussed with proponents of both sides well represented. If a citizen or group of citizens have the inalienable right to join then they must also have the right to “unjoin”. The critical error for the South was the attack on Fort Sumter. The South became the initial aggressor. European nations hesitated supporting the CSA, support critical and necessary for the South to win an extended conflict. Many leaders foresaw the abolition of slavery as a requisite for foreign intervention and publicly stated the need for action. Sadly no action took place.

Militarily, the CSA had an advantage early. Secession denied the Union Army many of the best leaders. The qualitative edge in leadership skill gave the South victories during the first years of war. The death of Jackson in 1863 sounded the death knell of the Confederacy. The loss of Jackson had a negative effect but it also represented the time when the loss of many of it’s leaders by attrition was beginning to show. After Chancellorsville and prior to Gettysburg, Lee was forced to reorganize his army. The formation of 3 corps from 2 created positions to be filled. Brave and dedicated men they were, but some were not qualified and it began to show. Officer losses sustained at Gettysburg were staggering. The CSA could never hope to recover militarily.

Picketts’ Charge really was the ”high tide” of the Confederacy.[/i]

Or its demise?

Some images from my visits to the Gettysburg National Military Park in May 1994 and July 2000.


Some mood music to play in background - John Hartford - Lorena :wink:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjhp93XG0SU










Maps of each of the three days of the Battle of Gettysburg, 1 - 3 July 1863.

Excellent pictures, George. Thank you very much. The one of the Confederate soldiers taken prisoner is one of my favourites of the war (captured, but undefeated). However much attention to detail that the re-enactors put into their dress and accoutrements (and they do it most spledidly), they can never fabricate that look in the eyes which comes from having been in a hard place.

I have the docu/drama DVD of the battle. I think it tells the story really quite well, what do you think?

Thanks 32Bravo, I’m glad that you like them :slight_smile:

I assume that you mean the movie Gettysburg with Jeff Daniels and Martin Sheen? I have the movie and thought that they kept pretty close to the historical events. Some things were glossed over because of the need to keep a time limit for theatre viewing. Long as the movie was, I think a mini-series would be needed to cover the battle more thoroughly. I have other movies on the Civil War like Glory, Gods and Generals, Ironclads, Hunley, Andersonville, Raintree County, Cold Mountain and also the documentary series Civil War Journal and Ken Burns’ The Civil War.

One thing that I have noticed in viewing many of the portraits of Civil War veterans that had “seen the elephant” is a deep sadness in their eyes.

Eyes that had seen so much:

Bvt. Maj. Gen. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain
Congressional Medal of Honor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Chamberlain

Col. Robert Gould Shaw
Congressional Medal of Honor
http://www.medalofhonor.com/RobertGouldShaw.htm

Civil War Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient
Gen. Arthur MacArthur
http://www.medalofhonor.com/ArthurMacArthur.htm

Civil War General Arthur MacArthur, father of General Douglas MacArthur .
24th Wisconsin

Medal of Honor - Captain Thomas Ward Custer, United States Army
http://www.medalofhonor.com/ThomasCuster.htm

Civil War Congressional Double Medals of Honor Recipient
Brother of Civil War General George Armstrong Custer

Ulysses S. Grant

Robert E. Lee

Confederate General John Brown Gordon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_Gordon

Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest

Medal of Honor - Sergeant Robert Pinn
http://www.nps.gov/rich/historyculture/pinn.htm

Library of Congress
Robert Pinn, 1st Sergeant, Co. I, 5th USCT. In addition to the Medal of Honor, Pinn is wearing two other medals earned during his Civil War service.

Medal of Honor - Color Sergeant James Drury
http://www.weldonrailroad.com/medalofhonor.html

Medal of Honor - Sergeant William Carney
http://www.isomedia.com/homes/bhd2/william_carney.htm

William Carney was born in New Bedford, Massachusetts. He was a member of Company C, 54th Massachusetts Colored Infantry. On July 18, 1863, during the Battle of Fort Wagner, South Carolina, nearly 37 years after the Civil War, he was cited for military valor. During the engagement by the all-Black 54th and 55th Massachusetts Colored Regiments, Commander Robert G. Shaw was shot down. A few feet from where he fell laid Sergeant Carney. Summoning all of his strength, Carney held aloft the colors and continued the charge. Having been shot several times, he kept the colors flying high, and miraculously retreated his regiments. Although he made it, many of his comrades did not. For in the deadly battle, over 1,500 Black troops died. On this day in 1900, Sergeant William H. Carney was issued the Congressional Medal of Honor, making him the first Black to ever win the coveted award. It should be noted that sixteen other Black soldiers and four Black sailors eventually received the Congressional Medal of Honor for their heorics during the tragic epic in American history.

Medal of Honor - John H. Lawson
Civil War Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient
http://www.medalofhonor.com/JohnLawson.htm

Landsman John H. Lawson, US Navy

A portrait of John H. Lawson wearing his decorations, including the Congressional Medal of Honor awarded to him for heroism while wounded on duty as a U.S. Navy landsman during the Civil War.

Clara Barton, 1821-1912
Civil War Nurse
Founder American Red Cross
http://americancivilwar.com/women/cb.html
http://wneo.org/WebQuests/TeacherWebQuests/women/clarabarton.html

Confederate troops in Frederick, Maryland
http://americanhistory.si.edu/militaryhistory/exhibition/zoomify.asp?id=802&type=g&width=640&height=480&color=&hideAlt=1

I have the Gettysburg and Gods and Generals films, and the missus has Cold Mountian. I saw the TV series Civil War, which as I recall was the Ken Burns on. The others you mention, I haven’t seen at the store etc.

I consider the Civil War is a rather fascinating subject. I have an abriges copy of Grants memoirs, which I picked up for pennies in some bookstore or other, and I also have a copy of Campfire & Battlefields, which was first published in the nineteenth sentury, with many contributions from some of the people that took part in this conflagration. Oh, one mustn’t forget The Red Badge of Courage, which is a very good novel.

well the story behind arlington is that g.washingtons nephew inherited the property from george and later his nephews daughter married general lee and later on when the war broke out it was seized as a out post for the union and when injured troops where brought in some died and they were buried their making it a cementary to this day.and if im not mistaken their are both union and confederate troops buried their

Arlington House

On a Virginia hillside rising above the Potomac River and overlooking Washington, D.C., stands Arlington House. The 19th-century mansion seems out of place amid the more than 250,000 military grave sites that stretch out around it. Yet, when construction began in 1802, the estate was not intended to be a national cemetery.

The mansion, which was intended as a living memorial to George Washington, was owned and constructed by the first president’s adopted grandson, George Washington Parke Custis, son of John Parke Custis who himself was a child of Martha Washington by her first marriage and a ward of George Washington. Arlington won out as a name over Mount Washington, which is what George Washington Parke Custis first intended calling the 1,100-acre tract of land that he had inherited at the death of his father when he was 3.

Between 1841 and 1857, Lee was away from Arlington House for several extended periods. In 1846 he served in the Mexican war under Gen. Winfield Scott, and in 1852 he was appointed superintendent of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, his alma mater. After his father-in-law died in 1857, Lee returned to Arlington to join his family and to serve as executor of the estate.

Lee deeply regretted the loss of his home at Arlington. During the early stages of the war, foreseeing the probable loss of his home and belongings, Lee wrote to his wife about Arlington:

“It is better to make up our minds to a general loss. They cannot take away the remembrance of the spot, and the memories of those that to us rendered it sacred. That will remain to us as long as life will last, and that we can preserve.”

Lee continued to feel responsible for the estate and earnestly hoped that the slaves who were left behind would be educated and freed, according to the provisions of George Washington Parke Custis’ will.

The property was confiscated by the federal government when property taxes levied against Arlington estate were not paid in person by Mrs. Lee. The property was offered for public sale Jan. 11, 1864, and was purchased by a tax commissioner for “government use, for war, military, charitable and educational purposes.”

The property was confiscated by the federal government when property taxes levied against Arlington estate were not paid in person by Mrs. Lee. The property was offered for public sale Jan. 11, 1864, and was purchased by a tax commissioner for “government use, for war, military, charitable and educational purposes.”

Arlington National Cemetery was established by Brig. Gen. Montgomery C. Meigs, who commanded the garrison at Arlington House, appropriated the grounds June 15, 1864, for use as a military cemetery. His intention was to render the house uninhabitable should the Lee family ever attempt to return. A stone and masonry burial vault in the rose garden, 20 feet wide and 10 feet deep, and containing the remains of 1,800 Bull Run casualties, was among the first monuments to Union dead erected under Meigs’ orders. Meigs himself was later buried within 100 yards of Arlington House with his wife, father and son; the final statement to his original order.

The federal government dedicated a model community for freed slaves, Freedman’s Village, near the current Memorial Amphitheater, on Dec. 4, 1863. More than 1,100 freed slaves were given land by the government, where they farmed and lived during and after the Civil War.