Glorification of Nazism

There was no such majority. Almost without exception those German soldiers (both Heer and SS) who fought on the Eastern front committed war crimes on a massive scale, from the beginning to the end of the war. This included deliberately starving to death something along the lines of 3 million Russian PoWs (plenty of descriptions in this thread and elsewhere - go read them, but for the fact they’re so well documented they would be totally incredible… The soap factory run by the Danzig Anatomical Medical Institute using a nearby PoW camp of Russian PoWs to provide the feedstock is one such example.).
The story about the SS being so much worse than the Heer is in many ways a myth - they really weren’t very much worse, yet their crimes have in no way been exaggerated. It’s merely that they provided a convenient scapegoat to absolve the Heer of responsibility for their crimes. It’s much easier to sell a story when half of it is the truth.[/quote]

exactly. thats what i’m trying to point out.

So the fact that the Heer also comitted war crimes makes it all right to admire the SS?

I dont believe that for a minute. War is an extension of the politics of the Nazis. Germany was a Nazi state. It may be unfortunate for the few who were drafted in but thats just unlucky. For the vast majority however, they believed in the Nazi ideal, were reared on the politics and carried out the policies.

In 1933 all Germany denounced human decency by voting the Nazis into power. The Heer actively sided with the Nazis for various reasons and the SS were a political army first and foremost.

I dont see why normal democratic Germans living in Germany today can see this but others on this forum cant.

My whole point is not that some SS were decent men, its the fact of what they stood for and that cannot be compared to anything that the Western allies did. They stood for democracy and free thought. The Nazis did not.

In 1933 the holocaust, the war, none of it had happened. Go and find out what percentage of the vote the NSDAP actually had in the '33 elections. Look at what had happened to Germany in the previous 60 years, look where it was at in '33 and look what Hitler promised them. Then see what Hitler accomplished, or seemed to accomplish up to Sept. '39.

My whole point is not that some SS were decent men, its the fact of what they stood for and that cannot be compared to anything that the Western allies did. They stood for democracy and free thought. The Nazis did not.

That’s a good point and you’re absolutely right.

Pdf27

There was no such majority. Almost without exception those German soldiers (both Heer and SS) who fought on the Eastern front committed war crimes on a massive scale, from the beginning to the end of the war

Utter rubbish in fact your further comments illustrate exactly the point i’m making, especially about the ‘soap’ story.

Festamus

That’s about my opinion too.

Documented historical fact. I suggest you actually do some further reading before casually dismissing facts that you haven’t heard of before.
The soap factory in question was the Danzig Anatomical Institute, and the allegations were in fact thoroughly examined as part of the Nuremberg trials:

But, besides this, there is another characteristic in the many crimes committed by the German fascists which makes them even more detestable. In many cases, the Germans, having killed their victims, did not stop here, but made the corpses objects of jeers and mockery. Mockery of the dead bodies of victims was common practice in all extermination camps. I remind the Tribunal that the bones which had not been calcinated were sold by the German fascists to the firm Strem. The hair of the murdered women was cut off, packed in sacks, pressed and sent to Germany.

Among the same crimes are those on which I shall now submit evidence. On numerous occasions, I have already pointed out that the principal method used to cover up the traces was to burn the corpses, but the same base, rationalized SS technical minds which created gas chambers and murder vans, began devising such methods of complete annihilation of human bodies, which would not only conceal the traces of their crimes, but also serve in the manufacturing of certain products.

In the Danzig Anatomic Institute semi-industrial experiments in the production of soap from human bodies and the tanning of human skin for industrial purposes were carried out. I, submit to the Tribunal, as Exhibit Number USSR-197 (Document Number USSR-197), the testimony of one of the direct participants in the production of soap from human fat. It is the testimony of Sigmund Mazur, who was a laboratory assistant at the Danzig Anatomic Institute.

I omit two pages of the statement and turn to Page 363. I begin the quotation-it is rather long, but I think I shall have the necessary time for the presentation of the evidence, and I beg to draw the attention of Your Honors to this quotation:

"Q: ‘Tell us how the soap was made out of human fat at the Danzig Anatomic Institute.’

"A: 'In the courtyard of the Anatomic Institute a one-story stone building of three rooms was built during the summer of 1943. This building was erected for the- utilization of human bodies and for the boiling of bones. This was officially announced by Professor Spanner. This laboratory was called a laboratory for the fabrication of skeletons, the burning of meat and unnecessary bones. But already during the winter of 1943-44 Professor Spanner ordered us to collect

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human fat, and not to throw it away. This order was given to Reichert and Borkmann.

" ‘In February 1944 Professor Spanner gave me the recipe for the preparation of soap from human fat. According to this recipe 5 kilos of human fat are mixed with 10 liters of water and 500 or 1,000 grams of caustic soda. All this is boiled 2 or 3 hours and then cooled. The soap floats to the surface while the water and other sediment remain at the bottom. A bit of salt and soda is added to this mixture. Then fresh water is added, and the mixture again boiled 2 or 3 hours. After having cooled the soap is poured into molds.’ "

I will present to the Tribunal these molds into which the soap was poured. Further I shall prove that this half-finished sample of human soap was really found in Danzig.

“The soap had an unpleasant odor. In order to destroy this disagreeable odor, Benzolaldehyd was added.”

I omit the next part of the quotation, which explains from where they received this preparation. This is of no importance at this stage, and I continue the quotation on Page 364, Paragraph 4:

"The fat of the human bodies was collected by Borkmann and Reichert. I boiled the soap out of the bodies of women and men. The process of boiling alone took several days- from 3 to 7. During two manufacturing processes, in which I directly participated, more than 25 kilograms of soap were produced. The amount of human fat necessary for these two processes was 70 to 80 kilograms collected from some 40 bodies. The finished soap then went to Professor Spanner, who kept it personally.

"The work for the production of soap from human bodies has, as far as I know, also interested Hitler’s Government. The Anatomic Institute was visited by the Minister of Education, Rust; the Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer, Doctor Conti; the Gauleiter of Danzig, Albert Forster; as well as professors from other medical institutes.

“I used this human soap for my personal needs, for toilet and for laundering. For myself I took 4 kilograms of this soap.” I omit one paragraph and continue the quotation.

“Reichert, Borkmann, Von Bargen, and our chief professor, Spanner, also personally used this soap.”

I omit the following paragraphs and conclude the quotation on Page 365, from where I shall read one paragraph which concerns the industrial utilization of human skin:

"In the same way as for human fat, Professor Spanner ordered us to collect human skin, which after having been cleaned of

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fat was treated by certain chemical products. The work on human skin was carried out under the direction of the chief assistant, Von Bargen and Professor Spanner himself. The ‘finished’ skin was packed in boxes and used for special purposes which I don’t know."

I now submit to the Tribunal as Exhibit Number USSR-196 (Document Number USSR-196), the copy of the recipe for soap produced from the corpses of the executed. I will not dwell on this recipe which is identical to that which has already been described in Mazur’s testimony. But the proof of the fact that this recipe is correct, Your Honors, can be found in Mazur’s record, which has already been submitted to the Tribunal under Document Number USSR-197. I will not quote this record. In order to prove that the record of Mazur’s interrogation corresponds to reality, I shall now submit to the Tribunal two documents which have been kindly put at our disposal They are records of sworn statements by two British prisoners of war; in particular that of John Henry Witton, a soldier of the Royal Sussex Regiment. The document is submitted to the Tribunal as Exhibit Number USSR-264 (Document Number USSR-264). The members of the Tribunal will find this quotation in Paragraph 5, Page 495, of the document book. I quote a very short excerpt from this record, if the necessary time is granted to me. This is Page 367. I quote:

“The corpses arrived at an average of seven to eight per day. All of them had been beheaded and were naked. They arrived sometimes in a Red Cross wagon containing five to six corpses in a wooden case and sometimes in a small truck which contained three to four corpses.”

I omit the next sentence.

“The corpses were unloaded as quickly as possible and taken down into the cellar, which was entered from a side door in the main entrance hall of the Institute.”

I omit the next sentence.

“They were then put into large metal containers where they were then left for approximately 4 months.”

I omit the next three sentences and continue the quotation:

“Owing to the preservative mixture in which they were stored, this tissue came away from the bones very easily. The tissue was then put into a boiler about the size of a small kitchen table… After boiling the liquid it was put into white trays about twice the size of a sheet of foolscap and about 3 centimeters deep.”-These were the basins which I have already shown the Tribunal-“Approximately 3 to 4 trayfuls per day were obtained from the machine.”

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This witness himself did not witness the application of the soap. but I am submitting to the Tribunal as Exhibit Number USSR-272 (Document Number USSR-272), the written testimony of a British citizen, William Anderson Neely, a corporal of the Royal Signals. The members of the Tribunal will find this excerpt on Page 498 of the document book, Volume 2. I begin the quotation:

“The corpses arrived at an average rate of 2 to 3 per day. All of them were naked and most of them had been beheaded.” I interrupt the quotation-I omit two paragraphs and continue the quotation:

"A machine for the manufacture of soap was completed some time in March or April 1944. The British prisoners of war had constructed the building in which it was housed in June 1942. The machine itself was installed by a civilian firm from Danzig by the name of AJRD. It consisted, as far as I remember, of an electrically heated tank in which bones of the corpses were mixed with some acid and melted down.

"This process of melting down took about 24 hours. The fatty portions of the corpses and particularly those of females were put into a crude enamel tank, heated by a couple of bunsen burners. Some acid was also used in this process. “I think it was caustic soda. When boiling had been completed, the mixture was allowed to cool and then cut into blocks for microscopic examination.”

I continue the quotation from the following paragraph:

“I cannot estimate the quantity produced, but I saw it used by Danzigers in cleaning tables in the dissecting rooms. They all told me it was excellent soap for this purpose.”

I submit half-finished and some finished soap. (Exhibit USSR-393) Here you shall see a small piece of finished soap, which from the exterior, after lying about a few months, reminds you of ordinary household soap. I give it over to the Tribunal. Beside this I now submit to the Tribunal the samples of semi-tanned human skin (Exhibit I]SSR-394). The samples which I now submit prove that the process of manufacturing soap was already completely worked out by the Institute of Danzig; as to the skin it still looks like a semi-finished product. The skin which resembles most the leather used in manufacture is the one you see on top at the left. So one can consider that the experiments on the industrial fabrication of soap from human fats were quite completed in the Danzig Institute. Experiments on tanning of human skin were still incomplete and only the victorious advance of the Red Army put an end to this new crime of the Nazis.

The full transcript of this section of the Nuremberg trials can be found here, with the relevant section being near the bottom at around page 596 of the original transcript. The testimony was submitted on 19th February 1946.
The only dispute about the soap factory is whether it had reached anything like industrial levels of production or if it was still at the prototype stage. It’s existence is not in any serious doubt.

Furthermore, the deliberate starving to death of millions of Russian PoWs is not in dispute, nor is the fact that it was deliberate. A good primer in the sort of things that went on can be found here, although just about any serious history book covering the Eastern Front should cover this aspect of the German campaign (although those written prior to the fall of the Berlin wall may be somewhat more limited due to having to rely on captured German sources - those able to use Russian sources too will most likely be able to give a better picture).

To say what percentage of the vote the Nazis got is rubbish, the fact is that the majority in a first past the post system voted for them.

To say no-one knew in 1933 what lay ahead is fantasy, In Mein Kampf Hitler states quite clearly his aims.

The Heer was supposed to protect Germany, but their fear of Rohm and the Brownshirts made them hitch their wagon to Hitler.

And the rest, as we know is history.

Firefly makes a valid point.

It wasn’t as if Herr Hitler kept his views to himself was it?

Mein Kampf was required reading for Germans of this time, so the WHOLE country should have had a pretty good idea what was happening.

Then of course there is the question of the informers.

It is a myth that the Gestapo were everywhere. They relied heavily on informers. Neighbours informed on neighbours and never once thought of where they went?

There was a program on TV once, when a woman was challenged on whether or not she knew what she had done when she informed on her neighbour to the Gestapo.

Obviously this is hearsy on my part but her reaction said it all to me.

[quote=“BDL”]

So the fact that the Heer also comitted war crimes makes it all right to admire the SS?[/quote]

I don’t admire the WAffen-SS any more then the Heer.

I think we should move away from specific war crimes and concentrate on the fact that the whole war was a crime.

… well, the argument has moved another direction. From the status of the waffen-ss to the claims that the whole german wermarcht and facist germany were brutal and decrepit. Well, from a generalized standpoint, I don’t disagree.

Then for once I say its good to have an adult debate and reach some sort of conclusion.

pdf27

I suggest you do some further reading yourself. I might also suggest you learn a little more about the subject matter before claiming anything as ‘fact’
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/soap-01.html

As for Soviet, and for your information Yugoslavian POWs i thank you for the link however that particular crime is a little closer to home for me than a link on the internet. You see 2 hours drive down the road from where i live (North Norway) is a place called Kitdal, in the summer of 1945 a team of British officers was sent here to investigate the deaths of hundreds of Soviet POWs by starvation and maltreatment as they worked on a defensive line being constructed in the mountains. I have a copy of the original report, which ended up being part of the evidence used at Nuremberg. More than that though, i’ve visited the places, seen the remains of the work camps. I even own a weekend cabin that has a memorial just 300m away to Soviet POW bodies found post-war in road widening works. In fact just yesterday i was investigating the site of a previously unknown POW work camp.
Oh and by the by, German POWs could expect similar treatment at the hands of the Soviets.

Firefly

The West didn’t know what was going to happen. Stalin refused to believe what was going to happen even as his intelligence people were trying to tell him that the Wehrmacht had massed on his borders. But somehow every German was supposed to able to see into the future?
first past the post? Well let’s see. I’m a Brit therefore i must support b-liar right? and he enjoy’s the support of the majority of the country right?

hindsight is always 20\20 as they say.

that b-liar thing is well outdated mate. Hindsight is great, but foresight was available and the voices were there at the time.

Editted to add

First past the post while not a totally acceptable system is far better than most.

BDL stated
'll show my arse in Littlewoods window.
I spent Monday afternoon in Church street awaiting the sight of hairy buttocks but eventually left via Home and Bargin( 4 cans of Oranjiboom £2.99) and M&S (Scotish beef pies) with my belief that the fact that members of the SS survived the war is an anathma intact.

that b-liar thing is well outdated mate. Hindsight is great, but foresight was available and the voices were there at the time.

Editted to add

First past the post while not a totally acceptable system is far better than most.[/quote]

so who’s voices should we be listening to today so we can avoid future nutcases and mass slaughters?
Bit of a problem that, you could look at the recent Iranian elections and by forgiven for thinking that there’s some bad mojo brewing over there with that hardliner just elected. I’d tend to agree, but what to do? The people who voted for him haven’t done so because he may lead them down the merry path to self destruction, even if others say that’s what he may do. Can the West do an Iraq on the country with justification in order to prevent a perceived future threat?

The nazis and the SS have been consigned to the dustbin of history and good riddance to 'em. But it’s the job of the historian to at least attempt to present the facts of what did and didn’t happen. That applies to all sides and in an ideal world should be done as impartially as possible. If we do that there is still more than enough evidence to condemn the nazi regime outright, but there are perceived ‘truths’ which have been handed down to us from the wartime and immediate post-war period which are distorted, inaccurate or downright lies. That simply plays into the hands of the holocaust deniers and neo-nazis who use these distortions to obfuscate. Create a seed of doubt about one alleged crime and leave people wondering what else might be less than it seems to be.

Now i don’t know about you but i’m not into taking the rap for the actions of a government i didn’t vote for, nor support. Paying for the crimes of others based on being part of a particular group? That’s shaky ground at best.

Your statement while possibly being valid today does not reflect the 1930s Germany I think.

The point is that the Nazis stated beforehand that they would carry out their policies of exclusion.

If you were voting today, it would probably be like voting for the BNP (British National Party) rather than Labour.

As to Iran etc, well thats not for this topic. If you want to start one in off topic Id be glad to chip in my tuppence worth.