Gun Debate

Comparing the BAR with the BREN I can understand as they were similar types of weapons, but throwing the '44 into the pot is like comparing chalk and cheese. Different tool for a different job.
I’ve fired all three weapons, (sadly only a few hundred rds through the '44s,) and all have their strengths and foibles.

The BAR was first envisaged as being used in ‘marching fire’ for advancing towards the German trenches in WWI.
Held at the hip, it was to fired each time the left foot hit the ground, the idea being that rds on the parapet would keep the enemy’s heads down whilst own troops advanced.
It was soon realised that a base of fire was a superior idea.

It used the standard US service cartridge of the time, the 30-06, although there was the T34, a modification for the 7.62 NATO round, produced about mid 1949 if memory serves me right, but it saw little service.
It isn’t a particularly light weapon, weighing as it does about the same as the BREN, (there are of course small differences in which models are taken for comparison.)
It has the bottom-fed action which restricts the magazine capacity to twenty rds, and when used in it’s intended role as a SAW it definitely needs that bipod !
Most BAR models were selective fire, although the 1918A2 which saw the most use in WWII and Korea, , had two rates of fire in a similar manner to the British Besa.

The BREN, also a gas operated weapon of approximately the same weight, was developed from the ZB26. The characteristic curved magazine was a result of the rimmed cases of the .303 service rounds, the original 26 used 7.92 Mauser. The L4 series were converted or manufactured for 7.62 NATO, using both straight and slightly curved mags.
It had also been designed to be used as a GPMG, with SF mount (in a 1:3 ratio) and quick change barrels.
Although it was magazine fed a good team could keep up a decent volume of fire consistent with that required in the role.
I, my contemporaries, nor any old soldiers we have spoken to have ever felt that the magazine caused any practical limitation of one’s field of view. As two of the old boys carried BRENs in North Africa and up through Italy, pausing for a ‘relaxing’ time at Cassino, I will defer to their experience although it concurs with mine.

I like the BRENs, I’m also very fond of the BARs too, they are all most enjoyable to shoot, but I would lean towards the former should I have to choose between the two for serious use.

Only ever fired the Bren, and only got a few rounds with it, but the mag was never a problem because of the sights being cocked over to one side.

I think you may be thinking of the Vickers K which also used a pan mag.

It’s clear as bright summer day for all there !

I don’t see any reasons why Mp43 find oneself in that poll with LMG …
And why BREN vs BAR M1918 ? Why not BREN vs DP27 or BREN vs MG34 ? Or BREN vs LS 26 Lahti-Soloranta etc… better BREN vs ZB26.

So, MP43/44/StG44 never can be considered as LMG in any kind, as well as scoped MP43(…) newr will be considered as sniper tool.

I think you may be thinking of the Vickers K which also used a pan mag.[/quote]
As well as DP27 - just imagine BREN with 47 rounds in pan mag - same mechanical idea, all pretty equal - excluding magazine and cartridge…

If you’ll got chance someday try that finnish Lahty -Soloranta LMG (if you latey don’t done it)- i can bet you’ll like that gun.

There is DP-27 Disassembly pictures - good way to compare that LMG with BREN part by part…
http://www.gunpics.net/russian/dp27/dp27dis.html

I will be thankfull for any pictures of disassembled BREN on it.

The original DP had the return spring around the barrel, which drew the temper and weakened it, hence the DPM. The 47rd pan mag was also large, difficult to carry, & thus prone to damage. The BREN mags fit in the standard British 37 patt pouches (just), not so the DP pan.

The BREN is certainly superior to the MG34 and MG42 in the light role, but inferior off a tripod. In the light role, there are many advantages to a magazine feed over a belt, such as protection of the ammunition from dirt whilst moving, and not having a belt flapping around on one side of the wpn. The smaller size, lighter weight, and lower rate of fire help this. In a static position when using a tripod, where belted ammo can be used straight from tins, these things are not a problem. The BREN is too light for a proper sustained fire role, and in both these roles the MG34 and 42 are superior, but neither can match a Vickers for sustained fire.

Bren vs VZ26 is not really a comparison, since they are almost identical (there was even a 7.92mm version of the BREN produced in Canada for the Chinese).

The Japanese had several LMGs but most of these were plagued with problems which required lubrication of cases.

DP 27 NEVER had any springs around barrel - but under barrel had.

MG34 can be used with 50 rounds belt on spoole inside round case and with special adaptor also can be feed from 75 round mag (same with MG15).
So, no dirt or flapping belt…

about 2 kg difference in weight and BREN’s 600 spm (or 500 ? few sorces-few numbers) against MG34 900 spm technical rate of fire. Practical rate of fire for MG34 - 100-120 spm by short 3-5 rounds bursts (300-350 for tripod mounted MG34).
Wich practical rate of fire had BREN i don’t know.

It was joke - about ZB26 and BREN. :wink:
And all japan’s LMG - real weapon’s nightnmare… even japan’s version of BREN (they used it as paratroopers weapon).

sorry, yes, under barrel, not around.

The belt trommel does solve the flapping belt problem, but is not exactly easy to carry in pouches!

Having handled the MG34, I can say that it’s effing heavy - far too heavy for the LMG role (that’s always the case with GPMGs though - a bit too heavy for the LMG role, a bit light for the MMG role).

The MP44 is the best. Mikahail Klashnikov made his prototype AKM in 1947 based on the MP44. The two guns are very similar externally, but the internal mechinisms between the AK and the MP44 are very different. But the MP44 is still the best.

err, the AKM is a modernised AK47 & appeared in the 1960s. And the prototype AK47s were built in 1946.

You can’t really say which of the 3 were better, since 2 are LMGs, the other is an assault rifle - it’s like comparing apples with bananas.

Now, mr. PzKpfw, you’ve been a very prolific poster in the few days since you’ve joined, and have been posting a large quantity of material which is in factual error. I suggest at least that you consult http://world.guns.ru or Wikipedia before you post anything further concerning weapons.

I would also suggest that you acquire & read the following books, which will give you a good grounding in small-arms up to about 1960:

Smith & Smith Small Arms of the World
J. Hatcher Hatcher’s Notebook
Jane’s Guns recognition guide is a bit crap, but is also useful, and does come vaguely up-to-date.

The BAR an LMG? Not what Ive heard. It was a squad support weapon, as with the Bren ,which was an LMG. It is true that it may be difficult in comparing apples with bananas, but you can still say which is the nicer fruit. And well I guess that is opinion, a more realistic one in this context would be to say “Which one was harder?”. So I must defend myself, because it was I who made this little debate. I know they had differant roles, and were mechanically different(or whatever). But once again, which do you feel achieves the most in the heat of battle.

If you would like to make a debate about weapons from the WW2 period it would go something like this. You will have to compare the rifles, so that would be the nosin nagnat, Lee enfield, Kar 98, and you could even include the M1 Garand, and the semi automatic rifles of Russia and Germany (I forgot their names). Compare Sniper rifles, and submachine guns, and then there is this catagory: MP44, Bren LMG, BAR. Each country had its own idea of what is needed in this catagory for war. Germany came up with an assualt rifle, Britain its LMG, and America the BAR.

So that was what I was thinking when I made this debate.

thank you for bringing that to my attention, I get the AKs mixed up alot… and i do use Wikipedia alot for gun facts and stats and stuff.

Such tests were carried out at Hythe, between 1930 and 1933, when the British Army was looking for a replacement of the Lewis LMG.
Contenders were:
Browning .303 LMG (improved BARs), one original design and an improved (S of D) design.
Darne LMG (7.92 Mauser)
Vickers-Berthier LMG (.303)
Kiralyi-Ende 7 LMG (7.92 Mauser)
ZB27 LMG, of which the Bren later derived in 7.92 Mauser, brought to the attention of the testing staff by the British military attache in Praque, Czech Republic
Madsen .303 LMG

After the first trials, the Kiralyi and the Browning were ruled out, the Kiralyi due to mechanical problem and unreliability and the Browning due to (from the original test report):
"…
b. Trials of the American Browning light machine gun need not to proceed further as this pattern has been superseeded by the type as modified by S of D.
c. The S of D Browning is not considered worthy of further trials owing to its unsuitability for sustained fire by reason of its barrel and feed arrangement, and further that the time which must necessarily elapse before these guns could be provided would not justify the additional delay.

The guns recommended for further trials are the following:

Vickers-Berthier.
“ZB"27 (if modified to take the .303 Mark VII cartridge).
Madsen.
…”

The Darne was excluded in the beginning of the trials because it was not magazine fed as per specifications, but belt fed.

During further trials, the Czech manufacturers promptly adressed recommendations by the British Army staff and finally won the competition.

Jan