I am not an expert on that, but probably these rockets did not really blow up a heavier tank. There are a lot of photos showing tilted German tanks, even Tigers. It would very likely have just been the blast that could be enough to knock over a tank or kill the crew members inside.
So shooting of a rocket salvo was probably easier and more effective then having to land a direct hit via cannon on a tank.
Dora 12
Signat.forum.bmp (132 KB)
I am not an expert on that, but probably these rockets did not really blow up a heavier tank through a penetration hit. There are a lot of photos showing tilted German tanks, even Tigers. It would very likely have just been the blast that could be enough to knock over a tank or kill the crew members inside.
So shooting of a rocket salvo was probably easier and more effective then having to land a direct hit via cannon on a tank.
Dora 12
000.bmp (275 KB)
Accuracy was 5% hits on tanks in training, 0.5% in combat. I believe it just used a standard HE charge.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
Once again – sorry for being late, honorable ladies and gentlemen, but due to my inexorable obligations I am able to provide only a dilatory factographic contribution. Hopefully a useful one…
As you know, one amongst the most distinguished bombing actions in WW 2 was a devastation of soviet battleship Marat (ex-Petropavlovsk), carried out by Hans Ulrich Rudel on September 23rd,1941. Marat probably was the most famous ship of the legendary Russian Sevastopol Class of battleships, as she represented the Soviet Union in the Coronation Review for King George VI in June of 1937. She was based at Tallin when Germany invaded the Soviet Union in June of 1941, and she almost immediately became the target of German Luftwaffe. In those times the Baltic Fleet had just achieved a breakthrough from Tallinn to Kronstadt and the order was to concentrate on heavy artillery saturation-fire upon enemy armed forces. The fleet’s long-range large-caliber guns rendered an invaluable service to the battlefront. To help accomplish a general strategic mission – decisive defense of Leningrad – the ships trained all their guns on the enemy’s motorized columns that were trying to penetrate into the city perimeter. To this end the battleship Marat, the cruisers Maxim Gorky and Petropavlovsk, the flotilla leader Leningrad, and the destroyers Opytny and Smetlivy were moored in the estuary of the Neva River and the harbours of the city’s commercial port. Out of the Kronstadt group of ships, namely the battleship Oktyabarskaya Revolutsiya, the cruiser Kirov, flotilla leader Minsk, the destroyers Silny, Surovy, Svirepy, Slavny, Stoiky, Gordy and Steregushchy also took up assigned firing positions.
Altogether twenty four 305 mm, eighteen 180 mm (not counting the 203 mm main guns of the heavy cruiser Petropavlovsk) and over fifty 130 mm guns of the battleships, cruisers, flotilla leaders and destroyers were completely prepared for heavy support artillery fire. This was a very impressive force. For example, only a battleship’s artillery barrage weighed six tons. In a minute the ship was able to shower the enemy with 50 tons of heavy shells.
Conducting highly accurate and long-range fire the 305 mm heavy ordnance were a source of serious trouble to the Germans. No wonder that they committed large Luftwaffe formations to action against those ships, and the battleships were their main targets. Subsequently the Marat was firstly hit with a heavy bomb on September 16, when she was anchored in the boot basin of the Morskoi Kanal and her guns were firing at the attacking columns of the Wehrmacht. However, the Luftwaffe conducted particularly massive raids on her on September 21-23. She was then moored in Tzar Peter I Harbour in Kronstadt.
On September 23, 1941 entire Baltic fleet was massively attacked by Ju-87 B Stuka dive-bombers of the Stukageschwader 2 Immelmann. One 1-ton bomb aimed by Rudel has effectively penetrated through her deck armor, and subsequently detonated her forward ammunition magazine of the 23606 ton naval veteran, built back there in 1911. In a colossal explosion, mostly similar to that experienced by USS Arizona about two and a half months later in Pearl Harbor, the bow area of the ship was completely ruined, “A” gun turret with two 305 mm cannons crumbled, and parts of the superstructure thrown onto a nearby quay. As always, members of the Stabia LFL 2 photo-reconnaissance squadron were on the spot in a little while, so previously mentioned accomplishment was heavily photographically recorded for further evaluation.
Clobbered and partially sunk Battleship Marat (ex-Petropavlovsk), Kronstat – September 23, 1941. Photo taken by Stabia LFL 2, colonel Hans Ruef
The complete forecastle, a turret and the bridge were destroyed, but fortunately the ship has laid down herself to the shallow harbor bottom, and outstanding success of the German aerial attack was soon compensated by equally unbelievable Soviet steadfastness and constructive ingenuity: remained ship hull was water-tightened by welded steel plates, leveled and counterbalanced with water ballast, and additionally stabilized by anchors. This magnificent achievement was carried out by the talented specialists of the EPRON (Expedition of Underwater Works for Special Purposes) already an efficient state-owned and controlled rescue and salvage organization. Manned with experienced technicians and divers and sufficiently equipped with rescue vessels and other essential equipment it was incorporated in the Soviet Navy on June 22, 1941.
Marat, partially repaired
As previously mentioned, three other turrets remained basically intact, and two months later, as the Wehrmacht drew closer, the remaining three 305 mm main gun towers continued to support ground operations. The Marat, however, never sailed out to sea after that. Though she remained moored till the end of the war, she continued to fight and to inflict heavy losses on the enemy. On May 31, 1943 heavily damaged ship was once again renamed as Petropavlovsk. There were plans for her reconstruction, but they were never carried out. Ship was reclassified as a stationary artillery training ship in November of 1950 and once again renamed Volkhov, but finally scrapped in 1954.
And here you have another, quite unknown original snapshot of the Junkers 87 G 2. It was published in a official Hungarian Royal Air Force Magazine “Magyar Szárnyak” (Hungarian Wings) No.13/43 (1st of July, 1943).
Ju 87 G2
I think that I will be able to find there some intriguing pictures about our common theme – factual armor-piercing efficiency of those 3,7 cm Bordkannone guns too. Till then – all the best.
There are, of course, three aspects to this:
The penetration the gun/ammo combinations were capable of;
The practical accuracy of the guns in combat (less than the accuracy in training, due to combat stress).
The effectiveness of the ammo if it did penetrate (the smaller the projectile, the less likely it was to disable the tank).
As far as the first point is concerned, this is what I put in Flying Guns – World War 2: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-45 :
“The BK 3,7 was not a particularly impressive gun. It was a modified version of the FlaK 18 AA gun, was big, heavy and slow-firing in comparison with the NS-37, and the ammunition clip could only contain a maximum of twelve rounds (six and eight-round clips also being used). However, it was quite powerful and the tungsten-cored Hartkernmunition could be extremely effective, penetrating 140 mm / 100 m / 90°, although this reduced sharply to 70 mm at 60°.
It is worth noting that the effectiveness of the Hartkern rounds was not only more affected by the striking angle than conventional AP shot but was also drastically reduced if the tanks were fitted with “stand-off” additional armour plates of the sort used to protect against hollow-charge infantry weapons. In these circumstances, the use of traditional APHE shells was recommended despite their theoretically much lower performance; the big BK 5 and BK 7,5 would have been the only really effective airborne anti-tank guns. The APHE shell for the 37x263B ammunition weighed 680 g and was fired at about 800 m/s; penetration would have been about 50 mm / 500 m / 0º or 40 mm at 60º. The equivalent shell for the 50x419R penetrated 78 mm / 500 m / 0º or 61 mm at 60º.”
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
That’s amazing story about Marat thanks dear Librarian.
I didn’t know the story of this ship detailed befor.
Cheers.
Very good pics Librarian as you usual do.
Accuracy was 5% hits on tanks in training, 0.5% in combat. I believe it just used a standard HE charge.
So…? you cant tell me that this ridiculous percentage can beat a 37mm gun.
"The BK 3,7 was not a particularly impressive gun. It was a modified version of the FlaK 18 AA gun, was big, heavy and slow-firing in comparison with the NS-37, and the ammunition clip could only contain a maximum of twelve rounds (six and eight-round clips also being used)
.
Fine, but the NS-37 carried no tugsten core so the penetration were much less than the german weapon, and no to mention the heavy stress and vibration wich tranfered to the IL-2 wooden wings.
The vibration caused a very spread pattern of ammo so the 37mm NS was found very poor in accuracy by the russian pilots.
As you might know the BK-37 included a hidro pneumatic shock absorver wich dampened condiderabely the recoil tranfered to the Gustav wings…wich were by far more strong than the Ilyushin attack craft.
However, it was quite powerful and the tungsten-cored Hartkernmunition could be extremely effective, penetrating 140 mm / 100 m / 90°, although this reduced sharply to 70 mm at 60°.
Wich mean it can penetrate any tank in russian service with the exception of the JS-2 in the frontal arc.
In these circumstances, the use of traditional APHE shells was recommended despite their theoretically much lower performance; the big BK 5 and BK 7,5 would have been the only really effective airborne anti-tank guns. The APHE shell for the 37x263B ammunition weighed 680 g and was fired at about 800 m/s; penetration would have been about 50 mm / 500 m / 0º or 40 mm at 60º. The equivalent shell for the 50x419R penetrated 78 mm / 500 m / 0º or 61 mm at 60º."
In the handbüch de Bordwaffenmunition the BK just appear to had 2 bullets tipe, a HE and the Hartkern, no mention to tha steel core ammo. The pictures I have seems to confirm that.
Yes,that is a very good story of the Marat,especially interesting that it stayed in the port for almost 10 years and was still used in service.
??? I never claimed that it would. I have consistently argued that the Typhoons were almost completely ineffective in the anti-tank role.
Fine, but the NS-37 carried no tugsten core so the penetration were much less than the german weapon, and no to mention the heavy stress and vibration wich tranfered to the IL-2 wooden wings.
The vibration caused a very spread pattern of ammo so the 37mm NS was found very poor in accuracy by the russian pilots.
As you might know the BK-37 included a hidro pneumatic shock absorver wich dampened condiderabely the recoil tranfered to the Gustav wings…wich were by far more strong than the Ilyushin attack craft.
No argument with that - I was comparing the guns rather than the mountings, and the NS-37 was a much better aircraft gun. The ammunition also developed a higher muzzle energy. The Russians did have tungsten-cored 37mm ammo, although I have not seen any evidence that it was used in the NS-37.
Wing-mounted guns were fundamentally less accurate than fuselage-mounted ones, because of the distance between the guns and the sights. The exact point of impact of the projectiles, compared with the sights, would vary much more with range than with fuselage-mounted ones.
Wich mean it can penetrate any tank in russian service with the exception of the JS-2 in the frontal arc.
Theoretical penetration was often much better than was achieved in practice, for a variety of reasons. The Ju 87G started with a gun harmonisation range of about 400m, but by the end Rudel was zeroing his guns at only 100m - which gave him only a tiny fraction of a second to fire before he had to pull up to avoid crashing into his target. He would only have taken such risks because he found that firing at longer ranges was no longer effective - and his usual mode of attack was from the rear, so that (as he put it) if his plane was damaged, he was already flying back to the safety of his own lines.
And penetration does not equal destruction. The penetrating core of the 37mm Hartkern munition was quite small, and had to hit something vital after penetration to knock out a tank. There is an interesting account of an attack by Hurricane IID anti-tank planes (armed with two 40mm Vickers S guns) on some light tanks in North Africa. Several of the tank crews abandoned their vehicles and took cover. After the attack, they found that the tanks had holes punched in the armour, but had otherwise suffered no serious damage, so they got back in and drove away!
In the handbüch de Bordwaffenmunition the BK just appear to had 2 bullets tipe, a HE and the Hartkern, no mention to tha steel core ammo. The pictures I have seems to confirm that.
That source is very useful but not comprehensive. The only ammunition specifically designed for the BK 3,7 was the Hartkern - but the guns could use any of the ammo for the FlaK gun, such as the HE and other types of AP.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
Is good hear that from you because, some Typhoon pilots ( like Clostermanns ) claim destroted tanks like candy.
For example for many years some historians had climed that the Witmanns Tiger 1 was destroyed when a rocket “penetrated his armor” …:shock: :shock: …with no hEAT charge and a slow velocity how ?
I just see tugsten core russian ammo for the 14,5mm rifles in ww2.
In my opinion the best armonization for the BK-3,7 is between 200-250
meters.
In here you can see a Ju-87g strafing his target, the distance is far from 100 meters.
http://www.zippyvideos.com/6793226073671326/ju-87_vs_js-2/
I think that I will be able to find there some intriguing pictures about our common theme – factual armor-piercing efficiency of those 3,7 cm Bordkannone guns too. Till then – all the best
Post it as fast you can.
The Russian 45mm, 57mm and 76mm tank guns had tungsten-cored ammo as well.
The pic below (from the Ammo Photo Gallery on my website) shows various types of tungsten-cored subcalibre tank/anti-tank ammo (British, German and Russian) from WW2. The 45mm is second left, the 57mm far right:
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
Right but this calibers were not used in aircrafts guns.
Actually some 45mm and 57mm aircraft guns did see experimental/limited use (eg the NS-45, used in the Yak-9K). Russian 37mm tungsten-cored projectiles have been found, but as I said I have no information about whether they were ever used in the NS-37.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
The Germans actually tested the effects of the 30mm Mk 101 cannon on 2 Soviet tanks which had already been knocked out by German Panzer’s.
The first tank was attacked by 4 airplanes, but out of 102 shots none hit the target at the given angle of attack.
The second tank was attacked on shorter distance (300 - 500 meters) and received 12 hits out of 94 fired (3 pilots hit tank and the 4th missed). None of the 12 hits lead to damage to the tank interior, and wouldn’t have diminished it’s fighting ability.
According to the source it says that probability of a He-129 to destroy a Т-34-76 (1942) in a single attack with 30mm canon MK101 was about 1% - 2% (side attack, angle 25’’-30’’, distance 200 - 300 meters).
Actually some 45mm and 57mm aircraft guns did see experimental/limited use
My sources were wrong then. :neutral:
Rudel s last Flight:
The Surrender of S.G. 2, 8 May 1945
On 8 May 1945, Kitzingen airfield in Germany was home to the Republic P-47s of the 405th FG, but before the day was out, it was also to be the home of a number of Luftwaffe Ju 87s and FW 190s. Oberst Hans-Ulrich Rudel’s Schlachtgeschwader 2 had continued to support German ground forces in the east until the final days of the war, but with hostilities to cease on 8 May 1945, and facing capture by the Russians, Oberst Rudel and his unit decided to try to reach the West.
Oberst Hans-Ulrich Rudel’s last aircraft, Ju 87 G-2 W.Nr 494 110 ‘Black <- + -’ crashed and surrounded by Americans at Kitzingen, 8 May 1945
Stab and II./S.G. 2 were based at Kummer, in northern Bohemia, I./S.G. 2 was in Austria, and III./S.G. 2 was near Prague. The I. and III.Gruppe both escaped westwards. Although the Stab and II./S.G. 2 had few serviceable aircraft, it was decided to fly as many men out as possible, while a vehicle convoy would try to reach the west with the rest of the unit’s personnel. This ground column was later attacked and destroyed, with few survivors.[1] But this was in the future when
More here:
Gotta hand it to those guys for trying to get out of there.I was wondering I got the impression that there was hardly any fuel to use at the end of the war.Little suprised they had enough fuel for that many planes.I wonder if that guys girlfriend married him after the war,after saving her from soviet capture :rolleyes:.
She is definately not my type :shock:… 
But jokes a side yes, is a great history, and your questions are very insteresting , unfortunately I have no answer, I know for sure that between february-april nearly 3500 brand new Luftwaffe aircraft were left in the ground for lack of fuel and lack of pilots. The heavily punished german indutry still was capable to manufature fighters and bombers, but the german air Force was simply was unable to put that strenght in service.
And if was a pilot who fought until the last liter on fuel and the last round of ammo, that was Rudel.
Rudel in a rare color film in the VE day in Europe, near to him are Rall and Galland.
That’s interesting didn’t he destroy like 512 SOviet tanks? or am i wrong?
