This is the same reaction the Japanese faced in the Philippines in WW2. In the Imperial Japanese Army it was customary for NCOs to beat and slap their subordinates. Now a Japanese squaddie got sent to the Philippines, but while the official policy preached cooperation between the occupied peoples and the Japanese, maybe through a missunderstanding he thinks he has to discipline a Filipino and slaps him in the face. With this action he has made himself an enemy for life. The Pinoy might say nothing and just be stonefaced, but you cvcan bet that from now on he will do everything possible to kill the people who have humiliated him.
Beating people does not exaclty make thier countrymen happy. Yes, I know, there are American f*cks that have done the same. They too have been prosecuted.
There is a bit of semantics involved in the author’s comment on Vietnam. He says we (US presumably) lost. Truthfully, the US pulled out after drawing the line and keeping half of the country free of rule from the north. But I suppose you could call that a loss, since the real objective was not met. The US faught that war with a smattering, dribble of men - like feeding men slowy into a grinder. What a flub. If they had sent 250,000 and everything that goes with them, it would have turned out differently, unless China jumped us like they did in Korea once more. The same would have been true in Korea - 17,000 US troops in a war that needed 217,000. Leave it to the UN to spank the bad doggie with a wet noodle.
I think the difficulty, as one of you stated, is the cultural difference. Convincing Muslims that cultures dominated by Christians have their best interests at heart is not easy. They have had their minds filled from toddler age for so many generations with narrow-minded dogma that undoing such thinking is difficult, even in modern times. A society that is so culturally linerar that it hides the faces of it’s women because the sight of a woman’s mouth might induce thoughts of it’s similarity to the vagina and thoughts of fellatio (banned in Muslim countries except India) is one that has difficulty in changing not only itself, much less it’s relations to the west. It seems to have worked pretty well in Kuait however. The Kuatis have no problem with foreigners being their friends. However, Kuait is also a relatively wealthy little country. Iraq is very much not wealthy. Money talks, and when money talks, cultures listen. China is a perfect example of that. 30 years ago Chia hated everything American. Now there’s a McDonalds every so many miles. These are defining times in the relations between the Muslim east and Christian west. If we can accomplish democracy in Iraq and make friends of Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran 9 :?: :?: ), and eventually ( :idea: ) Syria, the future will be a lot less hostile.
Walther a very good article, I have only diped into it and have marked it for further reading. This is one para that I landed on and is similar to an article I read on US troops in Macedonia some years ago.
“One of my National Guard officers said that in Bosnia, where he served, the Europeans and the locals all laughed at us for hunkering down in fortified camps and seeming scared all the time. It’s the old Force Protection crap. So I said, ‘Can it.’ No Fort Apaches. We’ll live in the towns. We will billet with the people, paying them well for the quarters we occupy. We’ll shop in the local markets, drink coffee in the local cafes. In Hattin, my headquarters is over a row of shops, right down town. We protect the shopkeepers, but they also protect us. They don’t want their shops blown up. I have troops living that way all over town. I let my captains, lieutenants and sergeants work their areas the way they see fit, blending in as much as possible.
Beating people does not exaclty make thier There countrymen happy. Yes, I know, there are American f*cks that have done the same. They too have been prosecuted.
There is a bit of semantics involved in the author’s comment on Vietnam. He says we (US presumably) lost. Truthfully, the US pulled out after drawing the line and keeping half of the country free of rule from the north It was a defeat you retreated and did not return. But I suppose you could call that a loss, since the real objective was not met. The US faught that war with a smattering, dribble of men - like feeding men slowy into a grinder. What a flub. If they had sent 250,000 and everything that goes with them, it would have turned out differently The US wouldnt have a standing army and they would have run out of places to put that many troops inside vietnam, unless China jumped us like they did in Korea once more. The same would have been true in Korea - 17,000 US troops in a war that needed 217,000. Leave it to the UN to spank the bad doggie with a wet noodle. We will be sure to ask for your experitse in these areas in future
I think the difficulty, as one of you stated, is the cultural difference. Convincing Muslims that cultures dominated by Christians have their best interests at heart is not easy when beating them (UK) or driving tanks over their cars (US) . They have had their minds filled from toddler age for so many generations with narrow-minded dogma not to draw any generalisation or anything. (you cant start a sentence with “that”) that undoing such thinking is difficult, even in modern times. A society that is so culturally linerar (culturally linear> interesting phrase WTF?) that it hides the faces of it’s women because (men are not trusted to be able to resist beautiful women who are seductresses - in one denomination of Islam) the sight of a woman’s mouth might induce thoughts of it’s similarity to the vagina and thoughts of fellatio (banned in Muslim countries except India? what an anorak to know in which countries fellatio is banned is one that has difficulty in changing not only itself, much less it’s relations to the west. It seems to have worked pretty well in KuWait however -"raised from a toddler on Narrow minded Dogma". The KuWatis have no problem with foreigners being their friends - Because we freed them from Iraq - not amazingly complicated and buy oil from them at quite a nice price too. However, KuWait is also a relatively wealthy little country -good use of the word relative. Iraq is very much not wealthy -that makes no sense - especially as Iraq is minted beyond belief in terms of potential revenue! all of which is presently flowing out of the Country. Money talks, and when money talks, cultures listen. China is a perfect example of that. 30 years ago Chia hated everything American- and still does. Now there’s a McDonalds every so many miles. These are defining times in the relations between the Muslim east and Christian west. If we can accomplish democracy in Iraq and make friends of Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran 9 :?: :?: ), and eventually ( :idea: ) Syria, the future will be a lot less hostile.Alternatively we could let syria and Iran do there own thing, or allow them to sort themselves out - and why would we need to go near Syria, other than to kick up a furore in yet another Muslim Nation! [/quote]
By the way Walther, and just in passing, I’m sure you were aware that India is a Hindu nation, while Pakistan is a Muslim one, the reason for partition. :roll:
By the way Walther, and just in passing, I’m sure you were aware that India is a Hindu nation, while Pakistan is a Muslim one, the reason for partition. :roll:[/quote]
Reiver,
I don’t know what you are talking about. Though my only contact with Pakistan (besides eating in a British Kebab shop) is a 1 hour stopover in Karachi airport 15 years ago, I know a bit about the history of India and Pakistan. I don’t think I ever claimed here that Pakistan was NOT a muslim nation. As well I don’t remember that I ever claimed that India was a muslim nation. I think you’ve got two wires crossed here.
By the way Walther, and just in passing, I’m sure you were aware that India is a Hindu nation, while Pakistan is a Muslim one, the reason for partition. :roll:[/quote]
Reiver,
I don’t know what you are talking about. Though my only contact with Pakistan (besides eating in a British Kebab shop) is a 1 hour stopover in Karachi airport 15 years ago, I know a bit about the history of India and Pakistan. I don’t think I ever claimed here that Pakistan was NOT a muslim nation. As well I dpn’t remember that I ever claimed that India was a muslim nation. I think you’ve got two wires crossed here.
Jan[/quote]
Sorry Jan,
Just indulging in some indirect chit-chat rather than direct confrontation.
I’m well aware that you never claimed India was a Muslim nation.
In a country of 127,207 square miles? No, we did not put a real army in Vietnam for other reasons. Not because there was no space. It was because the president did not want to provoke China, remembering Korea.
:roll:
A culture which maintains it’s philisophical and religious antiquity over time, unswerving and constrained. Iraq was almost 100% Muslim and opposed to the philosophies of the west 1,500 years ago, and they still are today.
It is not the men who are not trusted. It is the women who are not trusted. The paranoia stems from the male concept that women cannot be trusted to not wish to feel desired. In certain Arab cultures, the totalitarianist subjugation of women is taken to a greater and more hideous extreme, and girls are forced to have their clitorises cut off to keep women from indulging in masturbation. By their thinking, women should find pleasure only through intercourse with their husbands, and any sexual pleasure for women not by intercourse is condemned.
Yes, that is essentially what I said. Hence my comment that it may be possible to succeed in other Muslim countries.
Iraq is not a wealthy nation. Iraq produces only @ 3% of the world’s oil production (you probably thought it was much higher), and the money does not trickle down. The average Iraqi is poor by western standards.
Well considering that doing nothing leads to where we are today, it seems doing something is the way to go. Hence, your country and mine are over there now. As for Syria, they are at present the most prolific source of terrorists and terrorist training camps in the world. Doing nothing there (politically or whatever) is a means to the end we find ourselves in now.
Gosh. How liberal politics gets this wrold so screwed up.
Yes, I know that India is a Hinu nation of Hindi people. I simply meant that it is banned throughout the Middle East with the exception of India. Thank God you jumped me though.
A culture which maintains it’s philisophical and religious antiquity over time, unswerving and constrained. Iraq was almost 100% Muslim and opposed to the philosophies of the west 1,500 years ago, and they still are today.
Iraq has 5 times the proven oil reserves of the USA, and pre-war was virtually self-sufficient in food production, unlike Kuwait which effectively produces no food and imports everything.
In addition Iraq produced chemicals, textiles, construction materials and fertilizer, and had thriving food processing, , and metal fabrication/processing industries.
Kuwait produces oil, full stop.
The average first-class Kuwaiti, ie native-born of parents native in 1920, was and is, I agree, far better off than his Iraqi counterpart, but the natural resources of Iraq suggest that that situation need not continue indefinitely, and comparisons with Western incomes are very subjective, as I found out some months back in Egypt.
As for “achieving democracy”, the elections held recently showed every sign that Iraq may well eventually elect a theocratic government.
We, the West, may not like or understand that, but we will have to accept it or be branded liars and hypocrites.
Agreed, once Iraq gets itself sorted out again, they’ll be one of the richest countries in the region and one of the more succesful countries in the world
(1) Sorry Ironingman, the US was defeated in Vietnam, you lost the war because you were overreliant on new shiny kit, rather than tactics and training.
(2) Going into Syria would release a wave of terrorism that would make 11/09/2001 look like a small accident. Anyone who thinks that going into Syria would be a good idea (especially after the mess that the US has made of running Iraq since the war) is a fool.
You cannot pour troops into a country and garuantee success. You had control of small enclaves on hte southern tip from there on in everything was in flux and adding more men would not have “solved” the situation it wasnt a case of an undermanned war, your opponent simply held the geographical and tactical advantage. He was a significantly smaller force after all, just all pervasive!
And if you ahd had ground in Vietnam into which all these troops would fit you still ahvent asked what the US would do for a standing army. your initial figure of 250~ is ridiculous, but then so are you!
re: your comments surrounding men, women and concelament is in agreement with what I wrote do not “re-phrase” your posts to comply with my views.
It stated men were not trusted to resist seductresses - seductresses are women that seduce men, This involves her sleeping with you because you are attractive or beneficial to her. When you next have a woman try and sleep with you Ill explain further.
I am aware of the practice of FGM, I have written dissertations on it and dont want to become bogged down in a discussion over it that will clearly fall apart at the limits of your back of a cereal box knowledge. It should be noted that FGM is not standard practice within Islamic culture and that your suggestion that it is an accpeted norm within the religion is heinously offensive. It is more commonly a tribal african practice limited to the african continent and performed not solely to prevent masturbation but to garuantee Virginity at marriage and “improve” hygiene, encourage effeminacy and propogate female identity and unity within a community by marking the divergence between childhood and womanhood. - all in all much more complex than you give it credit for.
I thought Afgahnistan was the “centre” for training terrorists? Or was it Libya? Hang on dont tell me that they have started to train terrorists in other places! Dash, well thats just not cricket! Next thing you know Al-Quaeda will bomb sennybridge! We must remove the enemies ability to train! - Please dont tell me they permit you to vote in elections IRONMAN.
The Iraqi Elections did appear to indicate a theocracy would retrun to Iraq, I seem to remember my lectureres discussing this at a “round table” They also pointed out that the Iraqi oil reserves were amongst the most untapped in the region. Also if you get the drilling dereck over on an angle from Iraq you can drill across the border into Saudi! :lol:
