Hitler 2005 What if the Nazis had a time travel machine

[pdf27]

@Adrian_Wainer

No as far as technology is concerned, I think it would been quite chuffed with himself, since much of modern engineering technology is inspired by the Third Reich e.g. take a look at the Boeing 737 the World’s most successful airliner and the Messerschmitt Me-262 co-incidence or what?

No, physics. The Me-262 needed two engines as one wasn’t powerful enough, so following the lead pioneered by such high tech aircraft as the Handley Page O/100 it put one on each wing. The low wing and central cockpit was hardly a new idea at the time either, while the swept wing was done to compensate for the fact that the rear end of the engine was heavier than expected. While the benefits of swept wings were known in Germany (and indeed elsewhere - the idea predated WW2) at the time, the Me-262 couldn’t fly fast enough to benefit from them.
If you look at the wings from above, you will see that the leading edge inboard of the engines is straight. This is where the thickness/chord ratio is greatest and hence where wing sweep would be most needed - thus demonstrating that the Me-262 isn’t actually a swept wing aircraft.

The dominant configuration (of which the Boeing 737 is an example) actually dates back to the Boeing B-47 which was an immediately postwar aircraft.

[Adrian_Wainer]

@pdf27

No, physics. The Me-262 needed two engines as one wasn’t powerful enough, so following the lead pioneered by such high tech aircraft as the Handley Page O/100 it put one on each wing. The low wing and central cockpit was hardly a new idea at the time either, while the swept wing was done to compensate for the fact that the rear end of the engine was heavier than expected. While the benefits of swept wings were known in Germany (and indeed elsewhere - the idea predated WW2) at the time, the Me-262 couldn’t fly fast enough to benefit from them.
If you look at the wings from above, you will see that the leading edge inboard of the engines is straight. This is where the thickness/chord ratio is greatest and hence where wing sweep would be most needed - thus demonstrating that the Me-262 isn’t actually a swept wing aircraft.

The dominant configuration (of which the Boeing 737 is an example) actually dates back to the Boeing B-47 which was an immediately postwar aircraft.

And the research behind the B-47 came from where? In fairness to you the Me-262 is a far more basic aircraft than it would appear at first sight, e.g. the arrangement for deployment of the leading edge slats. All that said it was streets ahead of the Gloster Meteor.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

[Adrian_Wainer]

@pdf27

My point wasn’t that deeply unpleasant people with the desire to commit genocide only existed in the 1930s (clearly not true - look at any era in history). Rather, it was that it is very rare for a modern industrialised state with sufficient power to be a close match to any other state you care to mention finds itself in a position that extremist ideologies like Nazism actually seem attractive. I can’t think of any other examples at all offhand.

The problem is however, that modern technologies release capabilities which were previously the sole preserve of the most advanced technological and militarily powerful states to a wider user base e.g. Germany developed and produced nerve gas gasses during World War 2 but the Allies couldn’t manage to do it, whilst the Allies produced an Atomic weapon but Germany couldn’t manage to do it. Really given the level of sophiscation of genetic bio-engineering it would be no big issue for a state like Syria or North Korea to produce a bio-engineered smallpox weapon and further given the huge inflows of petro dollars to the Middle East, it would be quite within the realms of possibilities that non-state actors such as a wealthy businessman might successful fund the development of such a weapon as a private charitable exercise. Also I wonder how many people al-Qaeda would have killed if they had slammed a 747 in to a nuclear power station.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/425745

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

[pdf27]

@Adrian_Wainer

And the research behind the B-47 came from where?

The Jet Engines were developed from Whittle units, while the swept wing builds on a great deal of work. So far as I can work out swept wings were first suggested as a means of delaying the onset of strong shockwaves by a chap named Max Munk in 1924, at which point he was working in the US for NACA (the forerunner to NASA). They first came to widespread attention at the Volta Conference, held in Rome in 1935 when Adolf Busemann presented a paper on the subject. Germany was something of a hotbed of research on swept wings during WW2 (in so much as anywhere was - in reality there was very limited research going on there and virtually none elsewhere).
In the case of the B-47, they essentially replicated the German research in it’s entirety and then did some more to prove the concept to a rather sceptical aeronautical establishment. Once you’ve grasped the basic concept (that the velocity normal to the leading edge is critical - which dates back to Munk’s work) the rest is just engineering and very little can in practice be copied.

@Adrian_Wainer

In fairness to you the Me-262 is a far more basic aircraft than it would appear at first sight, e.g. the arrangement for deployment of the leading edge slats. All that said it was streets ahead of the Gloster Meteor.

That is NOT hard. The Meteor really wasn’t a great deal more complicated than the E.28/39, itself just about the simplest aircraft you can wrap around a jet engine. It is notable that when they actually put some effort into getting the Meteor halfway right (with the F.4 and F.8) the performance improved radically - maximum speed for instance increasing from 417 to 632 mph. This was almost totally from aerodynamic improvements to the airframe - frontal area of the engines was virtually unchanged and the thrust roughly doubled, which is nowhere near enough to account for the performance increase.

@Adrian_Wainer

Germany developed and produced nerve gas gasses during World War 2 but the Allies couldn’t manage to do it

Somewhat misleading. Both sides produced Organophosphates in industrial quantities - in the case of the Germans it was Tabun, in the case of the Allies it was the insecticide DDT. The two are chemically very similar and if you can produce one the chances are you won’t have major issues producing the other. The issue was simply that each had discovered one of the chemicals but not the other - and it was pure chance who discovered which.

@Adrian_Wainer

Also I wonder how many people al-Qaeda would have killed if they had slammed a 747 in to a nuclear power station.

Well, it probably wouldn’t be very healthy for the people on the plane and the power plant workers. Any western reactor - and particularly a PWR - should be able to shrug off an impact from even a heavy aircraft with no major dramas - the containment vessels really are that strong. There would be some radioactive release - for instance the cooling ponds where spent fuel is stored are relatively poorly armoured - but it would be nowhere near the scale of Chernobyl or Windscale Pile 1. Remember, Teddy Kennedy’s car killed more people than Three Mile Island

[Sergej]

@herman2

I don’t know why they haven’t made a movie about this . imagine Hitler with a time Machine…I think it would be a great movie!

I saw one some years ago, I think it’s called
Philadelphia experiment or something.

[Adrian_Wainer]

@pdf27

The Jet Engines were developed from Whittle units, while the swept wing builds on a great deal of work. So far as I can work out swept wings were first suggested as a means of delaying the onset of strong shockwaves by a chap named Max Munk in 1924, at which point he was working in the US for NACA (the forerunner to NASA). They first came to widespread attention at the Volta Conference, held in Rome in 1935 when Adolf Busemann presented a paper on the subject. Germany was something of a hotbed of research on swept wings during WW2 (in so much as anywhere was - in reality there was very limited research going on there and virtually none elsewhere).
In the case of the B-47, they essentially replicated the German research in it’s entirety and then did some more to prove the concept to a rather sceptical aeronautical establishment. Once you’ve grasped the basic concept (that the velocity normal to the leading edge is critical - which dates back to Munk’s work) the rest is just engineering and very little can in practice be copied.

Well I never said the the Third Reich was ahead in jet engine technology because they weren’t Britain was. As for aerodynamics the Germans were ahead there though as you rightly said post WW2 the Americans would have duplicated everything the Reich did and done a whole lot more too but it must have been hugely advantageous to have had the Nazi research materiel.

@pdf27

That is NOT hard. The Meteor really wasn’t a great deal more complicated than the E.28/39, itself just about the simplest aircraft you can wrap around a jet engine. It is notable that when they actually put some effort into getting the Meteor halfway right (with the F.4 and F.8) the performance improved radically - maximum speed for instance increasing from 417 to 632 mph. This was almost totally from aerodynamic improvements to the airframe - frontal area of the engines was virtually unchanged and the thrust roughly doubled, which is nowhere near enough to account for the performance increase.

Well that just goes to show how far, the Allies were behind in building an aircraft which could properly utilize the potential of the turbojet engine.

@pdf27

Somewhat misleading. Both sides produced Organophosphates in industrial quantities - in the case of the Germans it was Tabun, in the case of the Allies it was the insecticide DDT. The two are chemically very similar and if you can produce one the chances are you won’t have major issues producing the other. The issue was simply that each had discovered one of the chemicals but not the other - and it was pure chance who discovered which.

whilst DDT and Tabun might share a common chemical base as organophospate deriatives their effects on human beings is radically different and nearly never won the race.

@pdf27

Well, it probably wouldn’t be very healthy for the people on the plane and the power plant workers. Any western reactor - and particularly a PWR - should be able to shrug off an impact from even a heavy aircraft with no major dramas - the containment vessels really are that strong. There would be some radioactive release - for instance the cooling ponds where spent fuel is stored are relatively poorly armoured - but it would be nowhere near the scale of Chernobyl or Windscale Pile 1. Remember, Teddy Kennedy’s car killed more people than Three Mile Island

Yes but an atomic reactor needs to be actively cooled even when it is shut down or it will breach its containment, whether the reactor cooling systems could survive a hit by a large aircraft is an entirely different matter. The important issue with Three Mile Island was that the containment was not physically breached and if you lose cooling the reactor will burn its way out of the containment. Furthermore I would suggest a fueled up Boeing 747 would contain a lot more energy than an F 4 Phantom II.

http://www.cdi.org/nuclear/nuclear-terror.cfm

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

[pdf27]

@Adrian_Wainer

Well that just goes to show how far, the Allies were behind in building an aircraft which could properly utilize the potential of the turbojet engine.

No, it goes to show that the British decided not to build a particularly advanced jet fighter. The US did (with the P-80 - a substantially more advanced aircraft than the Me-262, with variants still in service).

@Adrian_Wainer

whilst DDT and Tabun might share a common chemical base as organophospate deriatives their effects on human beings is radically different and nearly never won the race.

Your statement was that the Allies were unable to manufacture it. They were.

@Adrian_Wainer

Yes but an atomic reactor needs to be actively cooled even when it is shut down or it will breach its containment

Nope, the active cooling for a few hours after shutdown is required to prevent damage to the fuel. If the reactor is designed properly - and all modern ones are - they will not melt down and so will not breach the reactor pressure vessel, let along the biological containment system.

@Adrian_Wainer

Furthermore I would suggest a fueled up Boeing 747 would contain a lot more energy than an F 4 Phantom II.

That’s a really easy calculation, as is the penetrating ability (not as different as the energy ratio between the two). Either way, neither will penetrate the reactor vessel.

[Firefly]

Already been done - Lighting was a good read http://www.booklore.co.uk/PastReviews/KoontzDean/Lightning/LightningReview.htm

[Adrian_Wainer]

@pdf27

No, it goes to show that the British decided not to build a particularly advanced jet fighter. The US did (with the P-80 - a substantially more advanced aircraft than the Me-262, with variants still in service).

Did they fly a P-80 against a 262 and if so with what results?

@pdf27

Your statement was that the Allies were unable to manufacture it. They were.

Well I think you have to discover something before you can manufacture it.

@pdf27

Nope, the active cooling for a few hours after shutdown is required to prevent damage to the fuel. If the reactor is designed properly - and all modern ones are - they will not melt down and so will not breach the reactor pressure vessel, let along the biological containment system.

Where does it say this, is it the nuclear industry is so unbelievably modest about the safety of their equipment they refuse to publicize this important safety feature.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

[pdf27]

@Adrian_Wainer

Did they fly a P-80 against a 262 and if so with what results?

Very probably - I’ll have a dig around. This sort of thing was done an awful lot in 1945-47.

@Adrian_Wainer

Well I think you have to discover something before you can manufacture it.

Nope. Something is manufacturable if, given the drawings/process flowchart a competent manufacturing engineer working within the state of the art could manufacture it with an acceptable defect rate. The existence or otherwise of such a drawing is entirely irrelevant.

@Adrian_Wainer

Where does it say this, is it the nuclear industry is so unbelievably modest about the safety of their equipment they refuse to publicize this important safety feature.

It says that they think talking about it will make the public more nervous, rather than less. Currently they don’t think about it at all so don’t worry about it. If they were to think about it, a substantial minority would elect not to believe the nuclear industry, and use that as an excuse to oppose nuclear power. Hence the nuclear industry keeps quiet about it as it is not in their interest to stir up the crackpots.

[Adrian_Wainer]

@Drake

Why would anyone want to go forward in time though? The whole point of this thought excercise usually is, that you could theoretically correct your past mistakes to achieve a desired outcome.

Well really, I only adopted the time travel aspect as a device to put Hitler in to the present day to examine how Hitler and classical Hitlerian Nazism would relate to the modern World and sending Nazis back in time from say 1944/45 had no utility to me in that regard. On the wider issue of the science fiction story, of people who go back in time to change some aspect of history to create a more favorable present, that is a very interesting scenario. Let us say, a scientist has recently invented a time machine that allows travel in to the past, so he buys today’s newspaper with all yesterday’s horse racing results on it, he goes back in time to yesterday and hands today’s newspaper to himself. Then he time travels back to today. As his yesterday self now has the newspaper from today, his yesterday self can win a lot of money by placing bets on the horses. Now he has changed the course of events in that knowing nothing about horses he would never have been able win that money but perhaps he has not actually changed history ( previous events ), if when he got in the time travel machine to go back to yesterday he already remembers have met himself yesterday and being handed the newspaper. So the scientist does a test to see if it is possible to change history, so he stays at home on a Thursday and nobody calls to his house, one week later he buys the newspaper and plans to call to his own house one week ago on the same Thursday and hand his one week earlier self a week later newspaper. He knows nobody called to his house that day one week ago, so what is going to happen, well he gets in the timemachine goes back one week and when he leaving his offices where his timemachine is, he gets beaten up by a mugger and ends up in hospital and so he decides being injured after leaving hospital he will not visit his one week ago self but go back to his own time in the time machine. My point being is that if the past is fixed by the stage it has come to be the past ie monolinear and changeable, even if one has a time machine, that one can use to travel back in to the past, one can only do what one has done in the past ie nothing new. So if the past is fixed, if Hitler in 1942 had tried to have FDR assassinated in 1930 through having access to a time machine that allowed travel back to the past, he might send a commando team back to 1930 and they might have attempted to kill FDR but if the past is fixed they will not succeed since FDR is still around in 1942. If time is potentially multilinear on the other hand, they will have a possibility to kill FDR, thought if time is not monolinear things get hugely complicated, in that they are traveling from a 1942 in which FDR is President of the USA but if they have just killed him he can’t be President of the USA in 1942, does time split off in different directions one in which FDR is assassinated in 1930 and another in which he isn’t and he goes on to President of the USA 1942? If there are now two different paths for time, one of which is FDR is assassinated in 1930 and one in which he isn’t, if they use the time machine to travel back to 1942 do they stay in the path in which FDR is assassinated and do they risk the possibility that things have developed differently in Germany because FDR has been assassinated but not to their liking e.g. Hitler killed in a car crash 1931, no Nazi Germany. As for Hitler 1942, if time can split in to different paths, if he has successfully had FDR assassinated in 1930 but that caused time to split in two different paths, even if the path he has created would be a great advantage for him e.g. FDR assassinated, Hitler does not die in a car crash in 1931, Hitler flies in to Washington to accept the uncondtional surrender of the American Government 1946, this of no advantage to our 1942 Hitler if he is not in this path. If on the other hand time can not diverge in to different paths but it is possible to change past events, that would open up the paradox of a man traveling back in time to kill his step father because he hates him but unknown to him his step father is actually his biological father in which case if he succeeded in killing his biological father several years before he himself was born, how does he get born to go on to kill his father?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

[aly_j]

@Adrian_Wainer

No as far as technology is concerned, I think it would been quite chuffed with himself, since much of modern engineering technology is inspired by the Third Reich e.g. take a look at the Boeing 737 the World’s most successful airliner and the Messerschmitt Me-262 co-incidence or what?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

You are right,jets are German Technolgy.I bet he wished he had that technolgy back in 1940.And if Hitler did come to the furtue, he would of died of an heart attack cause he would of found out he lost the war and USA is powerful cause of German technolgy.

[1000ydstare_redux]

Bass!:mrgreen:

[aly_j]

@1000ydstare_redux

Bass!:mrgreen:

Hey, theres a thread for BASS!

[boxerrick41]

there is a book " contact " set in the near future about an alien race that invaded in the middle of WW2, as they took so long to get here , we had developed far more by the 40’s till we rivaled them in everything but space travel by the time they arrived.of course the humans all temporarily sided till a stalemate was left. The Reich, the Americas and the Orientals all were world powers with the aliens settling in the middle east. Strange story of what if.