Infamous Debate: The Bomb

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#81

Really? Only 210 000 dead was till 1950 but the total quantity of death since 1945 till today is about 500 000. Read the sources more attentive.

For someone that cries that “Jews exaggerate the Holocaust,” you sure seem to have little interest in the true number of deaths? :rolleyes:

someone that cries?
You are …er. I never cries about Holocaust. I just have to considered the 6 million figures of Holoucaust as full shit. The jewish propogandic organisation and someone “catholic” actualy cry and … cover the zionist extremism.

Who said they were “stupid…idiots?” In fact their strategy was quite viable and clever --to inflict high percentages of casuaties on a technologically superior enemy forced to conduct amphibious landings, forcing a “negotiated peace” since the cost of invasion would be too high in blood. Far from stupid…

Oh yeah…
so why those 'far from stupid" must died themself,must wait while US burned and killed all their wafes and children becouse … they must continie to fight for Imperor.
You even don’t see the racism in your point Nickdfresh.

Please stop implying that I do not respect the Japanese honor and courage of their War dead. The Japanese soldier, when adequately armed and supplied, was second-to-none. It was their ruthless high command I despise…

You are not respect them - you simply imagine them as stupid.You has the racist point according of which the all Japanese - are a stupid or low-human which had raruthless high command . This is direct resault of your point - We need to kill 200 000 to save the millions of japance.

And BTW, the people you quoted had little or nothing to do with the Pacific Theater or Operations, their opinions are largely invalidated, especially since they killed thousands of Germans via strat. bombing…

Now look to here clever boy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

…One of the most notable individuals with this opinion was then-General Dwight D. Eisenhower. He wrote in his memoir The White House Years:

“In 1945 Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives.”

Other U.S. military officers who disagreed with the necessity of the bombings include
-General Douglas MacArthur (the highest-ranking officer in the Pacific Theater)
-Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy (the Chief of Staff to the President)
-General Carl Spaatz (commander of the U.S. Strategic Air Forces in the Pacific)
-Brigadier General Carter Clarke (the military intelligence officer who prepared intercepted Japanese cables for U.S. officials)
-Admiral Ernest King, U.S. Chief of Naval Operations
-Undersecretary of the Navy Ralph A. Bard,
-Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet.

“The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan.” Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet.
“The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender.” Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman.

The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, after interviewing hundreds of Japanese civilian and military leaders after Japan surrendered, reported:

"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."
…
Many, including General MacArthur, have contended that Japan would have surrendered before the bombings if the U.S. had notified Japan that it would accept a surrender that allowed Emperor Hirohito to keep his position as titular leader of Japan, a condition the U.S. did in fact allow after Japan surrendered. U.S. leadership knew this, through intercepts of encoded Japanese messages, but refused to clarify Washington’s willingness to accept this condition…

So Nickdresh as can we both see the most of higher US war command were a more honest and humane people. They saw the detailed picture in the Pasific , They knew the situation. In contrast to the americans politicians they didn’t see the military necessary to execute the Japanese civilians by the worst barbarian way.
Ist it not strange for you that people who has the direct professional duty to kill the enemy peoples were more human and moral that american polical leaders??

Oh really? What an intellectually-false collection of half truths.

Oh yeah , certainly this is half-truth. For the whole truth we need to learn the Japane own oppinion.
BTW do you hear oppinion of Japanes? I’m sure not.

Historian Tsuyoshi Hasegawa’s research has led him to conclude that the atomic bombings themselves were not even the principal reason for capitulation. Instead, he contends, it was the swift and devastating Soviet victories in Manchuria that forced the Japanese surrender on August 15, 1945

Iccho Ito, the mayor of Nagasaki, declared:

"It is said that the descendants of the atomic bomb survivors will have to be monitored for several generations to clarify the genetic impact, which means that the descendants will live in anxiety for [decades] to come. […] with their colossal power and capacity for slaughter and destruction, nuclear weapons make no distinction between combatants and non-combatants or between military installations and civilian communities … The use of nuclear weapons therefore is a manifest infraction of international law

Hiraoka, mayor of Hiroshima, upholding nuclear disarmament, said in a hearing to The Hague International Court of Justice (ICJ):

“It is clear that the use of nuclear weapons, which cause indiscriminate mass murder that leaves [?effects on] survivors for decades, is a violation of international law”

now let me the finish with words of Peter Kuznick, director of the Nuclear Studies Institute at American University in Washington DC :

”He knew (Harry Trumen) he was beginning the process of annihilation of the species. It was not just a war crime; it was a crime against humanity."

#82

Really? Only 210 000 dead was till 1950 but the total quantity of death since 1945 till today is about 500 000. Read the sources more attentive.

For someone that cries that “Jews exaggerate the Holocaust,” you sure seem to have little interest in the true number of deaths? :rolleyes:

someone that cries?
You are …er. I never cries about Holocaust. I just have to considered the 6 million figures of Holoucaust as full shit. The jewish propogandic organisation and someone “catholic” actualy cry and … cover the zionist extremism.

Who said they were “stupid…idiots?” In fact their strategy was quite viable and clever --to inflict high percentages of casuaties on a technologically superior enemy forced to conduct amphibious landings, forcing a “negotiated peace” since the cost of invasion would be too high in blood. Far from stupid…

Oh yeah…
so why those 'far from stupid" must died themself,must wait while US burned and killed all their wafes and children becouse … they must continie to fight for Imperor.
You even don’t see the racism in your point Nickdfresh.

Please stop implying that I do not respect the Japanese honor and courage of their War dead. The Japanese soldier, when adequately armed and supplied, was second-to-none. It was their ruthless high command I despise…

You are not respect them - you simply imagine them as stupid.You has the racist point according of which the all Japanese - are a stupid or low-human which had raruthless high command . This is direct resault of your point - We need to kill 200 000 to save the millions of japance.

And BTW, the people you quoted had little or nothing to do with the Pacific Theater or Operations, their opinions are largely invalidated, especially since they killed thousands of Germans via strat. bombing…

Now look to here clever boy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

…One of the most notable individuals with this opinion was then-General Dwight D. Eisenhower. He wrote in his memoir The White House Years:

“In 1945 Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives.”

Other U.S. military officers who disagreed with the necessity of the bombings include
-General Douglas MacArthur (the highest-ranking officer in the Pacific Theater)
-Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy (the Chief of Staff to the President)
-General Carl Spaatz (commander of the U.S. Strategic Air Forces in the Pacific)
-Brigadier General Carter Clarke (the military intelligence officer who prepared intercepted Japanese cables for U.S. officials)
-Admiral Ernest King, U.S. Chief of Naval Operations
-Undersecretary of the Navy Ralph A. Bard,
-Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet.

“The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan.” Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet.
“The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender.” Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman.

The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, after interviewing hundreds of Japanese civilian and military leaders after Japan surrendered, reported:

"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."
…
Many, including General MacArthur, have contended that Japan would have surrendered before the bombings if the U.S. had notified Japan that it would accept a surrender that allowed Emperor Hirohito to keep his position as titular leader of Japan, a condition the U.S. did in fact allow after Japan surrendered. U.S. leadership knew this, through intercepts of encoded Japanese messages, but refused to clarify Washington’s willingness to accept this condition…

So Nickdresh as can we both see the most of higher US war command were a more honest and humane people. They saw the detailed picture in the Pasific , They knew the situation. In contrast to the americans politicians they didn’t see the military necessary to execute the Japanese civilians by the worst barbarian way.
Ist it not strange for you that people who has the direct professional duty to kill the enemy peoples were more human and moral that american polical leaders??

Oh really? What an intellectually-false collection of half truths.

Oh yeah , certainly this is half-truth. For the whole truth we need to learn the Japane own oppinion.
BTW do you hear oppinion of Japanes? I’m sure not.

Historian Tsuyoshi Hasegawa’s research has led him to conclude that the atomic bombings themselves were not even the principal reason for capitulation. Instead, he contends, it was the swift and devastating Soviet victories in Manchuria that forced the Japanese surrender on August 15, 1945

Iccho Ito, the mayor of Nagasaki, declared:

"It is said that the descendants of the atomic bomb survivors will have to be monitored for several generations to clarify the genetic impact, which means that the descendants will live in anxiety for [decades] to come. […] with their colossal power and capacity for slaughter and destruction, nuclear weapons make no distinction between combatants and non-combatants or between military installations and civilian communities … The use of nuclear weapons therefore is a manifest infraction of international law

Hiraoka, mayor of Hiroshima, upholding nuclear disarmament, said in a hearing to The Hague International Court of Justice (ICJ):

“It is clear that the use of nuclear weapons, which cause indiscriminate mass murder that leaves [?effects on] survivors for decades, is a violation of international law”

now let me the finish with words of Peter Kuznick, director of the Nuclear Studies Institute at American University in Washington DC :

”He knew (Harry Trumen) he was beginning the process of annihilation of the species. It was not just a war crime; it was a crime against humanity."

#83

You are don’t know the the matter of japance demands in 1945. Thay wished only single - saving the Imperor institute. Other military or political demands were excluded.

He was a US Navy officer, and these were his own speculations based on limited information. That’s his opinion, not necessarily the “truth.”

Well Nickdfresh certainly US hight command had a limited oppinion.But they detailed knew the war situation in 1945 in the Pacific. Called it’s professional oppinion as "not necessarily the “truth” you blame them as “liers”.
Will somebody believe you?

Why were they a danger for the US/UK?

They were an ally, correct?

Were they ally?
Tell me please if they were ally why UK/US prepeared the operation “Untinkable” - direct war agression of the Red Army in Europe in 1 jule 1945( while Red Army according the Potsdam agreements regrouped the troops to the East against Japane)?

BTW, why did the Soviets cynically attack Japan to steal territory and get the bloody spoils of War only in 1945 in an area where they had absolute strategic and tactical advantages, even though they knew Japan supposedly wanted to “capitulate?”

You forgot ( or absolutly don’t know) it was not Japane - it was MANCGURIA ( territory of Mongolia and Nothern China) . And Chinese were very thankfull for the Red Army. ( Yeah comminism brother help to fuck the Gomindan). NOBODY didn’t steal territory.
Study the history please
And about “only in 1945” - it’s seem you forgot thet 90% of Red Army was in the Europe SINCE 1941. May be you don’t knew it was the battle for survival with Germans?
MAy be you don’t knew the victims for the victory of Red Army was enourmous?
I though don’t need to be the genius to understand that WAR WITH JAPANE WAS UNPOSSIBLE WHILE RED ARMY WAS IN WESTERN EUROPE?

posed to Stalin’s cruel power grab in Eastern Europe? And the primary “demonstration” was to the Japanese gov’t/military (one in the same really), not to crabby Russians…

This “demonstration” showed the “democratic” humanism for all the world indeed, not just crabby Russian. And now when (ecpesially after Iraq slaugther ) all the world see the who is the real empire of evil .:smiley:

That’s not the point. Why didn’t they speak out against the “bombings” that killed far more people than the A-bombs ever did?

I don’t know, maybe they suddenly recalled about conscience and the human compassion :wink:
Anyway the american politic forgot about those christians principles forever.

Cheers.

#84

Care to post any? Even your admitted biased Wiki link never made that claim.

someone that cries?
You are …er. I never cries about Holocaust. I just have to considered the 6 million figures of Holoucaust as full shit. The jewish propogandic organisation and someone “catholic” actualy cry and … cover the zionist extremism.

You are not respect them - you simply imagine them as stupid.You has the racist point according of which the all Japanese - are a stupid or low-human which had raruthless high command . This is direct resault of your point - We need to kill 200 000 to save the millions of japance.

What a fascinating paradox. Any more Nazi-esque propaganda to post?

BTW, one of my best friends in the Army was half-Japanese, so that’s just rich, fool…

Any actual quotes linking me to ‘hatred’ of the Japanese?

Oh yeah…
so why those 'far from stupid" must died themself,must wait while US burned and killed all their wafes and children becouse … they must continie to fight for Imperor.
You even don’t see the racism in your point Nickdfresh.

Oh God, you are quite emotional Chevy.

Now look to here clever boy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

…One of the most notable individuals with this opinion was then-General Dwight D. Eisenhower. He wrote in his memoir The White House Years:

“In 1945 Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives.”

Other U.S. military officers who disagreed with the necessity of the bombings include
-General Douglas MacArthur (the highest-ranking officer in the Pacific Theater)
-Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy (the Chief of Staff to the President)
-General Carl Spaatz (commander of the U.S. Strategic Air Forces in the Pacific)
-Brigadier General Carter Clarke (the military intelligence officer who prepared intercepted Japanese cables for U.S. officials)
-Admiral Ernest King, U.S. Chief of Naval Operations
-Undersecretary of the Navy Ralph A. Bard,
-Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet.

“The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan.” Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet.
“The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender.” Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman.

The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, after interviewing hundreds of Japanese civilian and military leaders after Japan surrendered, reported:

"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."
…
Many, including General MacArthur, have contended that Japan would have surrendered before the bombings if the U.S. had notified Japan that it would accept a surrender that allowed Emperor Hirohito to keep his position as titular leader of Japan, a condition the U.S. did in fact allow after Japan surrendered. U.S. leadership knew this, through intercepts of encoded Japanese messages, but refused to clarify Washington’s willingness to accept this condition…

Well, “clever boy,” maybe you should check the veracity of a biased Wiki article:

From your link:

This article or section may contain original research or unverified claims.
Please help Wikipedia by adding references. See the talk page for details.

So Nickdresh as can we both see the most of higher US war command were a more honest and humane people. They saw the detailed picture in the Pasific , They knew the situation. In contrast to the americans politicians they didn’t see the military necessary to execute the Japanese civilians by the worst barbarian way.
Ist it not strange for you that people who has the direct professional duty to kill the enemy peoples were more human and moral that american polical leaders??

Or somebody, anybody, posted their opinion as fact, one that actual historians reject.

BTW, perhaps you can produce the telegram showing the Japanese were “suing for peace” via the USSR as proxy in mid-1945, and then tell me why the USSR decided to invade Manchuria, knowing the Japanese supposedly wanted to surrender. Wouldn’t that make them just as guilty as the Americans, as culpable in the bombings as they prolonged the War then?

Oh yeah , certainly this is half-truth. For the whole truth we need to learn the Japane own oppinion.
BTW do you hear oppinion of Japanes? I’m sure not.

The funny thing is the Japanese have an insatiable, almost obsessive fixation on the US and for American culture in general. So, while most detest the bombing, I think there tends to be more sorrow than hatred.

We’ll leave the hatred of all things Western, and the Jews, to you.:slight_smile:

now let me the finish with words of Peter Kuznick, director of the Nuclear Studies Institute at American University in Washington DC :

”He knew (Harry Trumen) he was beginning the process of annihilation of the species. It was not just a war crime; it was a crime against humanity."

And that is his opinion, good for him! it’s one I find it flawed and completely dishonest…

I prefer Ozzy Osborne’s:

[i]Like moths to a flame
Is man never gonna change
Time’s seen untold aggression
And infliction of pain
If that’s the only thing that’s stopping war

Then thank god for the bomb
Thank god for the bomb
Thank god for the bomb
Thank god for the bomb

Nuke ya nuke ya

War is just another game
Tailor made for the insane
But make a threat of their annihilation
And nobody wants to play
If that’s the only thing that keeps the peace

Then thank god for the bomb
Thank god for the bomb
Thank god for the bomb
Thank god for the bomb

Nuke ya nuke ya

Today was tomorrow yesterday
It’s funny how the time can slip away
The face of the doomsday clock
Has launched a thousand wars
As we near the final hour
Time is the only foe we have

When war is obsolete
I’ll thank god for the war’s defeat
But any talk about hell freezing over
Is all said with tongue in cheek
Until the day the war drums beat no more

Then thank god for the bomb
Thank god for the bomb
Thank god for the bomb
Thank god for the bomb

Nuke ya nuke ya[/i]
:slight_smile:

#85

What exactly is this based on? Which historians? Some intercepted communications filled with contradictions?

Were they ally?
Tell me please if they were ally why UK/US prepeared the operation “Untinkable” - direct war agression of the Red Army in Europe in 1 jule 1945( while Red Army according the Potsdam agreements regrouped the troops to the East against Japane)?

They “prepared” a speculative document? Boy, I bet the Soviets never thought about continuing to roll their tanks after Berlin fell. I bet there were no hypothetical Warplans kept by the Red Army either…:rolleyes:

Were not the Red Army’s central warplans all offensive in nature until the end of the Cold War?

You forgot ( or absolutly don’t know) it was not Japane - it was MANCGURIA ( territory of Mongolia and Nothern China) . And Chinese were very thankfull for the Red Army. ( Yeah comminism brother help to fuck the Gomindan). NOBODY didn’t steal territory.
Study the history please
And about “only in 1945” - it’s seem you forgot thet 90% of Red Army was in the Europe SINCE 1941. May be you don’t knew it was the battle for survival with Germans?
MAy be you don’t knew the victims for the victory of Red Army was enourmous?
I though don’t need to be the genius to understand that WAR WITH JAPANE WAS UNPOSSIBLE WHILE RED ARMY WAS IN WESTERN EUROPE?

I never said Manchuria was Japan, that’s not the point. But they received a telegram from Japan saying they wanted to “sue for peace,” didn’t they? So why bother attacking at all at that point?

This “demonstration” showed the “democratic” humanism for all the world indeed, not just crabby Russian. And now when (ecpesially after Iraq slaugther ) all the world see the who is the real empire of evil .:smiley:

What’s the difference between Iraq and Chechnya, other than the scale? In fact, I would be the least bit surprised if a higher percentage of Chechens have died in the last ten years than the last three years deaths of Iraqis in our idiotic war there…

And I think the majority of people killed in Iraq were actually killed by other Iraqis --it’s the insecurity and the breakdown of social order by the US invasion that allowed this to happen. But historically, your gov’t has killed more people than my gov’t. And my father can beat up your father too.:slight_smile:

I don’t know, maybe they suddenly recalled about conscience and the human compassion :wink:
Anyway the american politic forgot about those christians principles forever.

Cheers.

Unless they’re “hook-nosed,” “Elder of Zion” Jews, right anti-Semite?

#86

well may be this source will make clear your mind:
http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/hiroshima.htm

…No one will ever know for certain how many died as a result of the attack on Hiroshima. Some 70,000 people probably died as a result of initial blast, heat, and radiation effects. This included about twenty American airmen being held as prisoners in the city. By the end of 1945, because of the lingering effects of radioactive fallout and other after effects, the Hiroshima death toll was probably over 100,000. The five-year death total may have reached or even exceeded 200,000, as cancer and other long-term effects took hold…
…
…As with the estimates of deaths at Hiroshima, it will never be known for certain how many people died as a result of the atomic attack on Nagasaki. The best estimate is 40,000 people died initially, with 60,000 more injured. By January 1946, the number of deaths probably approached 70,000, with perhaps ultimately twice( i.e. 140 000) that number dead total within five years. For those areas of Nagasaki affected by the explosion, the death rate was comparable to that at Hiroshima

Thus only after the period 1945-1950 died about 200 000 + 140 000= 340 000 peoples in Japane. But peoples continied to die TILL TODAY. Therefore the figure of 500 000 lives which was called in EuroNews cannal report from Hirosima is more that probable.

What a fascinating paradox. Any more Nazi-esque propaganda to post?

BTW, one of my best friends in the Army was half-Japanese, so that’s just rich, fool…

Any actual quotes linking me to ‘hatred’ of the Japanese?

as soon as you’ll call them to be ready to death for imperor :wink:

Oh God, you are quite emotional Chevy.

Don’t worry Nicky please for my emothions. I 'm calm enought, but your tend to use the personal insultings based on national origin ( like " crabby Russians") is bothers me. I just can’t remember when i told something worst about personaly americans.

Well, “clever boy,” maybe you should check the veracity of a biased Wiki article:

And that’s all what you say?
WIKI is already BIASED, surprise for me.
Did you read the whole Wiki-article. I think not becouse you must to see the different points: FOR and AGAINST of using A-bomb.
So do you want to say that US- gov version is also biased?Why?
And why did you not check the origin of your sources about famine in Ukraine?
You are strange and non-sequential person .
It seems for me you just have nothing to say for protection of you poit -therefore you simply deny the objective different international sources.

Or somebody, anybody, posted their opinion as fact, one that actual historians reject.

BTW, perhaps you can produce the telegram showing the Japanese were “suing for peace” via the USSR as proxy in mid-1945, and then tell me why the USSR decided to invade Manchuria, knowing the Japanese supposedly wanted to surrender. Wouldn’t that make them just as guilty as the Americans, as culpable in the bombings as they prolonged the War then?

i’ll show it to you as soon as possible. Don’t worry.

The funny thing is the Japanese have an insatiable, almost obsessive fixation on the US and for American culture in general. So, while most detest the bombing, I think there tends to be more sorrow than hatred.

We’ll leave the hatred of all things Western, and the Jews, to you.:slight_smile:

You absolutly missunderstood me. I’m too like the US culture and american at all.But i don’t think it’s the reason to forgot about crimes of american politics. The historical true is more importain than current political profit.
And don’t begin EastVsWest hysteria please again.It’s not my point.

I prefer Ozzy Osborne’s:

:slight_smile:

I don’t listen Ozzy.i’ve never liked his style. And now he is a fu… of a-bomber stupid.

But it’s not the point to dislike personaly you…:slight_smile:

#87

Well if you too lazy to watch the sources links in Wiki i repit it for you no problems.
http://www.doug-long.com/quotes.htm

HIROSHIMA
WHO DISAGREED WITH THE ATOMIC BOMBING?

From what we read in the general media, it seems like almost everyone felt the atomic bombings of Japan were necessary. Aren’t the people who disagree with those actions just trying to find fault with America?
Positions listed refer to WWII positions.

DWIGHT EISENHOWER

Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380
Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63

ADMIRAL WILLIAM D. LEAHY
(Chief of Staff to Presidents Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman)

William Leahy, I Was There, pg. 441.

HERBERT HOOVER

Richard Norton Smith, An Uncommon Man: The Triumph of Herbert Hoover, pg. 347.
Gar Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, pg. 635.
Barton Bernstein in Philip Nobile, ed., Judgment at the Smithsonian, pg. 142
Richard Norton Smith, An Uncommon Man: The Triumph of Herbert Hoover, pg. 349-350.
Gar Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, pg. 350-351.

GENERAL DOUGLAS MacARTHUR

William Manchester, American Caesar: Douglas MacArthur 1880-1964, pg. 512.
Norman Cousins, The Pathology of Power, pg. 65, 70-71.

JOSEPH GREW
(Under Sec. of State)

Barton Bernstein, ed.,The Atomic Bomb, pg. 29-32.

JOHN McCLOY
(Assistant Sec. of War)

McCloy quoted in James Reston, Deadline, pg. 500.

RALPH BARD
(Under Sec. of the Navy)

Memorandum on the Use of S-1 Bomb, Manhattan Engineer District Records, Harrison-Bundy files, folder # 77, National Archives (also contained in: Martin Sherwin, A World Destroyed, 1987 edition, pg. 307-308).
Len Giovannitti and Fred Freed, The Decision To Drop the Bomb, pg. 144-145, 324.
War Was Really Won Before We Used A-Bomb, U.S. News and World Report, 8/15/60, pg. 73-75.

LEWIS STRAUSS
(Special Assistant to the Sec. of the Navy)

Len Giovannitti and Fred Freed, The Decision To Drop the Bomb, pg. 145, 325.

PAUL NITZE
(Vice Chairman, U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey)

Paul Nitze, From Hiroshima to Glasnost, pg. 36-37
Paul Nitze, From Hiroshima to Glasnost, pg. 44-45.

ALBERT EINSTEIN

Einstein Deplores Use of Atom Bomb, New York Times, 8/19/46, pg. 1.
Ronald Clark, Einstein: The Life and Times, pg. 620.

LEO SZILARD
(The first scientist to conceive of how an atomic bomb might be made - 1933)

Szilard quoted in Spencer Weart and Gertrud Weiss Szilard, ed., Leo Szilard: His Version of the Facts, pg. 181.
Szilard quoted in Spencer Weart and Gertrud Weiss Szilard, ed., Leo Szilard: His Version of the Facts, pg. 184.
Szilard quoted in Spencer Weart and Gertrud Weiss Szilard, ed., Leo Szilard: His Version of the Facts, pg. 185; also William Lanouette, Genius In the Shadows: A Biography of Leo Szilard, pg. 266-267.

THE FRANCK REPORT: POLITICAL AND SOCIAL PROBLEMS[
Political and Social Problems, Manhattan Engineer District Records, Harrison-Bundy files, folder # 76, National Archives (also contained in: Martin Sherwin, A World Destroyed, 1987 edition, pg. 323-333).

ELLIS ZACHARIAS
(Deputy Director of the Office of Naval Intelligence)

Ellis Zacharias, The A-Bomb Was Not Needed, United Nations World, Aug. 1949, pg. 29.
Ellis Zacharias, Eighteen Words That Bagged Japan, Saturday Evening Post, 11/17/45, pg. 17.
U.S. Dept. of State, Foreign Relations of the United States: Conference of Berlin (Potsdam) 1945, vol. 2, pg. 1260-1261.
Ellis Zacharias, How We Bungled the Japanese Surrender, Look, 6/6/50, pg. 19-21.

GENERAL CARL “TOOEY” SPAATZ
(In charge of Air Force operations in the Pacific)

Leslie Groves, Now It Can Be Told, pg. 308). :
(Herbert Feis Papers, Box 103, N.B.C. Interviews, Carl Spaatz interview by Len Giovannitti, Library of Congress).

BRIGADIER GENERAL CARTER CLARKE
(The military intelligence officer in charge of preparing intercepted Japanese cables)

Gar Alperovitz, The Decision To Use the Atomic Bomb, pg. 359.

So as can you see my friend the great number of americans hight officers, scientists and state-servicemens were against application of A-mobm in Japane.(Including the man which face in you avatar :smiley: )
Oh may be them all were a biased??? :wink:
Are you sure? :wink:

They “prepared” a speculative document? Boy, I bet the Soviets never thought about continuing to roll their tanks after Berlin fell. I bet there were no hypothetical Warplans kept by the Red Army either…

Were not the Red Army’s central warplans all offensive in nature until the end of the Cold War?

Was it “speculative document” or not is a open question.
But in this document was very detailed planned the war operations and war possibility of Red Army. And it was called the exact date of attack - 1 jule of 1945.( not look like 'speculative").
ragarding the Soviet plans in 1945 i’m sure Red Army ( which depended from lend lise supplies still enought) didn’t planned any attack agains allies. It could be pure siucide to begin the total war against allies ( who controlled about 70% of world economical and war production resources in this period).
And i never saw the Red Army plans llike operation “Unthinkable”

What’s the difference between Iraq and Chechnya, other than the scale? In fact, I would be the least bit surprised if a higher percentage of Chechens have died in the last ten years than the last three years deaths of Iraqis in our idiotic war there…

There is a GREAT difference indeed.
But i don’t think we need to duscuss this theme in this thread.And repit for you the thing which you and me already know.
Moreover we both already had the simular hot discussion, hadn’t it?

… And my father can beat up your father too.:slight_smile:
Unless they’re “hook-nosed,” “Elder of Zion” Jews, right anti-Semite?

Now decipher it.

#88

Now one more interesting article about:
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0806-25.htm

Was the Atomic Bombing of Japan Necessary?
by Robert Freeman

…Civilian authorities, especially Truman himself, would later try to revise history by claiming that the bombs were dropped to save the lives of one million American soldiers. But there is simply no factual basis for this in any record of the time. On the contrary, the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey reported, “Certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped.” The November 1 date is important because that was the date of the earliest possible planned U.S. invasion of the Japanese main islands.

In other words, the virtually unanimous and combined judgment of the most informed, senior, officers of the U.S. military is unequivocal: there was no pressing military necessity for dropping the atomic bombs on Japan.

But if dropping the bombs was not driven by military needs, why, then, were they used? The answer can be discerned in the U.S. attitude toward the Russians, the way the War ended in Europe, and the situation in Asia.

…, in February 1945, the U.S. did not know whether the bomb would work or not. But it unquestionably needed Russia’s help to end both the War in Europe and the War in the Pacific. These military realities were not lost on Roosevelt: with no army to displace Stalin’s in Europe and needing Stalin’s support, Roosevelt conceded eastern Europe, handing the Russians the greatest territorial gain of the War.

Finally and perhaps most importantly, Stalin agreed at Yalta that once the War in Europe was over, he would transfer his forces from Europe to Asia and within 90 days would enter the War in the Pacific against Japan. This is where timing becomes critically important. The War in Europe ended on May 8, 1945. May 8 plus 90 days is August 8. If the U.S. wanted to prevent Russia from occupying territory in east Asia the way it had occupied territory in eastern Europe, it needed to end the war as quickly as possible.

This issue of territory in east Asia was especially important because before the war against Japan, China had been embroiled in a civil war of its own. It was the U.S.-favored nationalists under General Chiang Kai Shek against the communists under Mao Ze Dong. If communist Russia were allowed to gain territory in east Asia, it would throw its considerable military might behind Mao, almost certainly handing the communists a victory once the World War was ended and the civil war was resumed.

Once the bomb was proven to work on July 15, 1945, events took on a furious urgency. There was simply no time to work through negotiations with the Japanese. Every day of delay meant more land given up to Russia and, therefore, a greater likelihood of communist victory in the Chinese civil war. All of Asia might go communist. It would be a strategic catastrophe for the U.S. to have won the War against the fascists only to hand it to its other arch enemy, the communists. The U.S. needed to end the War not in months, or even weeks, but in days.

So, on August 6, 1945, two days before the Russians were to declare war against Japan, the U.S. dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. There was no risk to U.S. forces then waiting for a Japanese response to the demand for surrender. The earliest planned invasion of the island was still three months away and the U.S. controlled the timing of all military engagements in the Pacific. But the Russian matter loomed and drove the decision on timing. So, only three days later, the U.S. dropped the second bomb on Nagasaki. The Japanese surrendered on August 14, 1945, eight days after the first bomb was dropped.

Major General Curtis LeMay commented on the bomb’s use: "The War would have been over in two weeks without the Russians entering and without the atomic bomb. The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the War at all." Except that it drastically speeded the War’s end to deprive the Russians of territory in east Asia.

This is just next time prove the political version of application of A-bomb.

Cheers.

#89

Chevan,

You found a very sencible article! Thanks.

P.S: It’s good that it is not writen by a rrussian guy, otherwise there would be no way Nickdfresh would accept it. At least now there is a chance. :wink:

#90

Oh, so everybody born before 1945 in either Hiroshima or Nagasaki that is currently dying can trace their death directly back to the “bomb?” Even 60+ years later!!! I think such projection methodologies are scurrilous when we’re talking about decades. Certainly cancer is a direct result of the bombings since the Japanese knew little about radiation hazards other then the intuitive, as the US also knew relatively little about radioactive fallout at that point. In fact, it was one of the consequences of the bombings in that virtually nothing was known about the long term potential of radioactive fallout to poison and kill long after the attacks happened…

as soon as you’ll call them to be ready to death for imperor :wink:

Well, since you like Wiki (which I’ve always says has its value when taken with some skepticism):

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

[i]
Japanese military culture and imperialism

Military culture, especially during Japan’s imperialist phase had great bearing on the conduct of the Japanese military before and during World War II.

Centuries previously, the samurai of Japan had been taught unquestioning obedience to their lords, as well as to be fearless in battle. After the Meiji Restoration and the collapse of the Tokugawa Shogunate, the Emperor became the focus of military loyalty. During the so-called “Age of Empire” in the late 19th century, Japan followed the lead of other world powers in developing an empire, pursuing that objective aggressively.

As with other imperial powers, Japanese popular culture became increasingly jingoistic through the end of the 19th century and into the 20th century. The rise of Japanese nationalism was seen partly in the adoption of Shinto as a state religion from 1890, including its entrenchment in the education system. Shinto held the Emperor to be divine because he was deemed to be a descendant of the sun goddess Amaterasu. This provided justification for the requirement that the emperor and his representatives be obeyed without question.

Victory in the First Sino-Japanese War (1894-95) signified Japan’s rise to the status of a world power. Unlike the other major powers, Japan did not sign the Geneva Convention — which stipulates the humane treatment of civilians and POWs — until after World War II. Nevertheless, the treatment of prisoners by the Japanese military in wars such as the Russo-Japanese War (1904-05) and World War I (1914-18), was at least as humane as that of other militaries.

[edit] The events of the 1930s and 1940s

By the late 1930s, the rise of militarism in Japan created at least superficial similarities between the wider Japanese military culture and that of Nazi Germany’s elite military personnel, such as those in the Waffen-SS. Japan also had a military secret police force, known as the Kempeitai, which resembled the Nazi Gestapo in its role in annexed and occupied countries.

As in other dictatorships, irrational brutality, hatred and fear became commonplace. Perceived failure, or insufficient devotion to the Emperor would attract punishment, frequently of the physical kind. In the military, officers would assault and beat men under their command, who would pass the beating on to lower ranks, all the way down. In POW camps, this meant prisoners received the worst beatings of all.

The traditional severity of Bushido and the ethnocentrism of Japan’s modern imperial phase often coalesced into brutality towards civilians and POWs. After the launching of a full-scale military campaign against China in 1937, instances of murder, torture and rape committed by Japanese soldiers seemed to be overlooked by their commanding officers and generally went unpunished. Such acts were repeated throughout the Pacific War.[/i]
…

Don’t worry Nicky please for my emothions. I 'm calm enought, but your tend to use the personal insultings based on national origin ( like " crabby Russians") is bothers me. I just can’t remember when i told something worst about personaly americans.

Really? Like when you accused me of being a “hook-nosed Jew?”

BTW, you’re the one bringing my Catholic heritage (one I pretty much ignore) into this, but I suppose that makes me the racist. :rolleyes:

And yes, I did call you a “drunken Russian” once, but of course, I was merely turning your mindless antisemitic stereotypes back into your face. You failed to grasp either nuance or irony, as did some others. And again, I have nothing against Russians and have liked any I’ve ever personally met…

BTW, I had a lovely lunch of Sushi today…

And that’s all what you say?
WIKI is already BIASED, surprise for me.
Did you read the whole Wiki-article. I think not becouse you must to see the different points: FOR and AGAINST of using A-bomb.
So do you want to say that US- gov version is also biased?Why?
And why did you not check the origin of your sources about famine in Ukraine?
You are strange and non-sequential person .
It seems for me you just have nothing to say for protection of you poit -therefore you simply deny the objective different international sources.

Yes, I’ve read the whole Wiki article, and found a good deal of unsupported opinions posed as authenticated facts. Anyone can draw up lists and say the bombing was unneccessary, and they have a point.

My point is this: saying that the bomb was dropped and 110,000 were killed in the initial blast merely to “scare the hell out of the Russians” is a patently, intellectually fraudulant statement --as is saying that the US knew the Japanese wanted to surrender…

Both have some truth to them, but are certainly false when made as a summary of the events.

And Wiki is primarily based in the US.

i’ll show it to you as soon as possible. Don’t worry.

You absolutly missunderstood me. I’m too like the US culture and american at all.But i don’t think it’s the reason to forgot about crimes of american politics. The historical true is more importain than current political profit.
And don’t begin EastVsWest hysteria please again.It’s not my point.

I agree totally that American policies have often been terribly shortsighted, blundering, and often lead to dire consequences. All I’ve said is keep things in context. I do not support virtually any of my current gov’ts policies either…

Firstly, I think a post in this thread or another, I’ve never mindlessly supported the atomic bombing of (mostly) civilian Japanese cities merely to demonstrate the power of the bombs, again, they should have been used on military targets, and I even once believed that the US should have gone forward with “Operation Downfall” (the Invasion of the home islands).

But it is now known that the first amphibious landings would have been terribly bloody for US and British troops, as the Japanese had more aircraft available for suicide missions, and the system of fortifications was quite impressive as the Japanese knew exactly where the landings would have taken place…

I don’t listen Ozzy.i’ve never liked his style. And now he is a fu… of a-bomber stupid.

But our countries never fought, did they?

But it’s not the point to dislike personaly you…:slight_smile:

Same here, cheers.

#91

Nickdfresh: I don’t disbelieve you, I just wonder why they waited eight months?

This is because USSR had none agression agreement with Japane. :smiley:

Speaking seriously, as Chevan, I think, mentioned, according to the agreement USSR had to join
the war against Japane within 90 days after the Germany’s capitulation. And 90 days it was. :wink:

.

#92

I’d like to see the exact wording of that agreement actually…

#93

I do not have it right now. But I recon it should be relatively easy…

Ok. Here it is (almost) thanks to the mighty Wikipedia :smiley:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference

Stalin agreed to enter the fight against the Empire of Japan within 90 days after the defeat of Germany. The Soviet Union would receive the southern part of Sakhalin and the Kurile islands after the defeat of Japan.

#94

As I said I didn’t disbelieve you. But I was looking for the exact wording of the conference, because the Wiki link says something about speculations of Roosevelt not wanting the Soviets to invade Japan proper, just to reclaim her honor by getting back the spoils lost in the Russo-Japanese War of 1905 (the Kuril Islands, which the Soviet authorities promptly ethnically cleansed by deporting over 400,000 Japanese citizens, some of which were brutalized).

From: http://www.answers.com/topic/sakhalin
…

In August 1945, according to Yalta Conference agreements, the Soviet Union took over the control of Sakhalin. The Soviet attack on South Sakhalin started on 11 August 1945, as a part of Operation August Storm, four days before the Surrender of Japan, after the bombing of Hiroshima. The 56th Rifle Corps consisting of the 79th Rifle Division, the 2nd Rifle Brigade, the 5th Rifle Brigade and the 214 Armored Brigade attacked the Japanese 88th Division. Although the Red Army outnumbered the Japanese by a factor of three, they were unable to advance due to strong Japanese resistance. (Japan had quite a presence here, and developed much infrastructure.) It was not until the 113th Rifle Brigade and the 365th Independent Naval Infantry Rifle Battalion from Sovietskaya Gavan (Сове�,ская �"аван�Oe) landed on Tōrō (�"路), a seashore village of western Sakhalin on 16 August, that the Soviets broke the Japanese defence line. Japanese resistance grew weaker after this landing. Actual fighting, mostly petty skirmishes, continued until 21 August. From 22 August to 23 August, most of the remaining Japanese units announced a truce. The Soviets completed the conquest of Sakhalin on 25 August 1945 by occupying the capital, Toyohara. Japanese sources claim that 20,000 civilians were killed during the invasion…
…

#95

Mr.Truman in a letter on 17-July-1945 (the very first day of Potsdam conference):

I got without any problems what I came here for - Stalin will join the war … now we can say that we will end the war a year earlier and I think off our boys saved lifes.

#96

Consider also the fact that the atomic bomb was intended to be used originally against the Germans, not the Japanese. Had Germany still been a combattant nation at the time that the bomb was finally proven viable, it would first have been used there. I hate to be cynical about this, but I sense a simple truth behind the fact that the bomb represented a titanic investment on the part of the US, and the US wanted some kind of return on its investment. Sounds horrid, I know, but there it is. Add to that the fact that the Japanese were even then refusing to surrender and its people were still under the grand illusion that it was not near defeat, plus the calculations of the US military that it might have as many as a million casualties as a result of invasion and the use of the bomb became a practical inevitability. Who can say with any certainty that in the same position, they would not have been very tempted to use it? A million potential casualties against none? You decide.

Now, finally, this: if Japan had surrendered at the same time as Germany, the bomb would not have been dropped on Japan because it simply was not an operational weapon yet. Stubborness sometimes leads to terible unintended consequences.

#97

I agree with a lot of what you’ve said here Nick, but I don’t agree that the Japanese tactics were clever or even intelligent. If my reading of casualty figures is correct, at the end of most of the amphibious invasions, the Japanese usually suffered about ten times - yes, that’s right, TEN times - the casualties and deaths that their American counterparts suffered. This is extraordinary when the conventional wisdom at the time was that the invading forces would suffer prohibitively high casualty rates, even if you had to do it.

Although the casualty rates among Marines were high by American standards as a percentage of total invading soldiers, this number was a nothing compared to the deaths among the Japanese. While I would agree that the Japanese were tough, tenacious and fanatical fighters adept at digging in and concealment and withstanding tremendous bombardment from the sea and air, there isn’t one island that was attacked by the Marines during the War in the Pacific, that did not fall to them either. Some were very difficult to win. But surely if the Japanese had been so clever and intelligent, they would have won at least one of these, instead of losing every one.

#98

OK, now to add something fresh and truly ironic to this “debate”. The Japanese themselves had scientists working on the creation of an atomic bomb. The fact that they were making very slow progress would be completely beside the point, as compared to an attempt to assert that the Japanese somehow occupied a greater moral high ground when in fact they were puzzling over exactly the same thing, as, of course, were the Germans who also made very slow progress. It should be remembered that the Germans shipped stores of precious uranium ore to Japan towards the end of the war via submarine It wasn’t to use it as a preservative for whale meat. I hate to paint the other guy with the same brush and say, “So there!” but sometimes ya just gotta do it.

Does anyone seriously believe that if either the Germans or the Japanese had built atomic bombs, they would not have used them? If so, there’s this bridge in Brooklyn that…

#99

How ethno-centric of the Russians in this “debate” to think that the atomic bomb on Japan was all about them! Yes, Natasha, it’s all about you!

#100

One thing we know for sure, because he said so: Harry Truman never lost any sleep over it. He was certain that he had saved a lot of American lives.