i watch that myth tv series from discovery and they make an experiment, they tried to shoo the sword with machine gun and it can withstand a few shots before it snaps.
Thanks for the background. I read about it in “Flyboys,” where the contest was related. I’ll check the info sometime, but I believe one of them “won” with over 100 beheadings mainly because they both had minor injuries and had to stop.
As for your “toy” comment – I tend to somewhat disagree with that.
The toy comment wasn’t really mine, I was just quoting and commenting on another preceding post. In fact, I didn’t think it was a “toy,” I believe that’s what I implied anyways. And the swords were highly prized by U.S. servicemen as war trophies.
I don’t think we can even compare swords and guns. Japanese officers don’t carry necessarily with intention to fight with them as their primary weapon, just as an American Marine don’t always attach their bayonet on their rifles and use it as a spear. For the western Marine, the bayonet is a tool/weapon when situation dictates it. Similarly, for the Japanese officer, the sword is a tool when appropriate. For one, leading your troops in battle with a traditionally honorable weapon can raise morale much more effectively than waving your sidearm in the air.
Well, I agree with this to some extent. Certainly, in fact by WWII, a pistol is little better than a sword on a modern battlefield against an industrialized enemy. And I believe Imperial Japanese officers carried both. As for
“raising morale,” well that’s all relative, I suppose if you hate your commanding officer because he is an asshole, then it really doesn’t matter what he carries. And as we’ve seen in “Band of Brothers” with Maj. Dick Winters where his troops respected and would follow him anywhere regardless of which weapon he carried, which was the same proletarian weapon his soldiers carried, the M-1 rifle.
I think the video in the original post completely missed the point. It’s amusing, but it’s also rather useless. I can take a hammer and smash a rifle to bits. Does that mean modern soldiers should equip themselves with big hammers instead of their assault rifles?
I’m not sure about the video since I haven’t yet watched it. I’ll get back to you, but if it is the American program “Myth Busters,” then they’re probably just commenting on some urban myth such as “Japanese officers could deflect bullets in WWII with their swords” or something.
they are made by blacksmiths, and since are high carbon,’
They consist several thousand laminations of extremely thin ‘forged high carbon spring steel’ (very highly sprungGGGGG!!! and ‘pressured’)
The initial small fat rectangular billet is heated to almost white hot and beaten/flattened to twice its length and the initial width, folded back over, reheated in charcoal, etc, etc repeated many times.
So it’s 2 to the nth power and at 16 folds I think you’d have 6,500 or so laminations! And I think they go well above that!
Then they forge the blade and tang into ‘the shape’, which in profile is like a fattened wedge. As swords go it is perhaps the best, not much heavier than a 16th century rapier, it has an immensely strong (well supported) and horrifically sharp edge - which is difficult to blunt on the usual targets of swords, and is immensely resistant to bending away from its straight striking axis.
Further few European, Islamic, or Asian swords have a tang which is as strong as its blade to the katanas extent.
{I’ve watched one being made, even though it was blacksmiths and VERY NOISY, it was all very Zen.)
So repeated hits from a HMG should eventually trigger a release of the pressure / tension holding the laminations together.
Are there any allied ground force casualty figures due to katana wounds or is it hiding under ‘blades’?.
It is possible they may have been quite high early on - when the Japanese regularly succeeded in overruning positions and coming to very close quarters - Wake, HongKong, Malaya, etc. but I doubt any of the dead’s CofD ever reached their medical records from the retreat to Singapore.
Or for most of Kokoda too, and only a fraction of the wounded did anyway, they had to be carried across very high mountains / walk, to the Port Moresby bases! Yes, cas-evac got a bit better at the end of the long drive back to Buna. The last 10%? of it.
If you wanted to ge a feel for the Kokoda campaign - google Isurava for during the retreat, and Oivi-Gorari which was the peak battle of the push back to the Northern coast at Buna.
Isurava was hand-to-hand, but not so much at Oivi-Gorari.
Eric Bergerud in his book 'Touched with Fire" for Powell’s on the War in the Pacific.
"Japan did not lose the ground war in the South Pacific in any single place. There was no equivalent of waterloo or Stalingrad … Yet if I were to pick one place where the war turned irrevocably against the Japanese, it was at Oivi-Gorari … The [Australians] inflicted a massive defeat on crack Japanese troops at small cost to themselves’
they are made by blacksmiths, and since are high carbon,’
They consist several thousand laminations of extremely thin ‘forged high carbon spring steel’ (very highly sprungGGGGG!!! and ‘pressured’)
The initial small fat rectangular billet is heated to almost white hot and beaten/flattened to twice its length and the initial width, folded back over, reheated in charcoal, etc, etc repeated many times.
So it’s 2 to the nth power and at 16 folds I think you’d have 6,500 or so laminations! And I think they go well above that!
Then they forge the blade and tang into ‘the shape’, which in profile is like a fattened wedge. As swords go it is perhaps the best, not much heavier than a 16th century rapier, it has an immensely strong (well supported) and horrifically sharp edge - which is difficult to blunt on the usual targets of swords, and is immensely strong in torsion and tension and thus the most resistant to bending away from its straight striking/cutting axis. It isnt a chopper nor is it a slasher scimitar - it is both!
Further few European, Islamic, or Asian swords have a tang which is as strong as its blade to the katanas extent.
{I’ve watched one being made, even though it was blacksmiths and VERY NOISY, it was all very Zen.)
So repeated hits from a HMG should eventually trigger a release of the pressure / tension holding the laminations together.
Use in battle.
Are there any allied ground force casualty figures due to katana wounds or is it hiding under ‘blades’?.
It is possible they may have been quite high early on - when the Japanese regularly succeeded in overruning positions and coming to very close quarters - Wake, HongKong, Malaya, etc. but I doubt any of the dead’s CofD ever reached their medical records from the retreat to Singapore.
Or for most of Kokoda too, and only a fraction of the wounded did anyway, they had to be carried across very high mountains / walk, to the Port Moresby bases! Yes, cas-evac got a bit better at the end of the long drive back to Buna. The last 10%? of it.
If you wanted to ge a feel for the Kokoda campaign - google Isurava for during the retreat, and Oivi-Gorari which was the peak battle of the push back to the Northern coast at Buna.
Isurava was hand-to-hand, but not so much at Oivi-Gorari.
Eric Bergerud in his book 'Touched with Fire" for Powell’s on the War in the Pacific.
"Japan did not lose the ground war in the South Pacific in any single place. There was no equivalent of waterloo or Stalingrad … Yet if I were to pick one place where the war turned irrevocably against the Japanese, it was at Oivi-Gorari … The [Australians] inflicted a massive defeat on crack Japanese troops at small cost to themselves’.
Hi all, new to the forum and thought someone could help. I ran across a sword exactly like this one at a pwan shop. he is asking 300 for it but I think I could get a bit off. It is alum. handle cast, and has numbers just like this on on the blade and scab. I checked on line and unless I am wrong it is worth 500$? it is in the same general condtion as the one in the link I am posting. any info on if I should pick it up would be helpful. thanks
http://www.quanonline.com/military/military_reference/japanese/sword_19.php#
Probably worth more if is original.
Katana in the propaganda, a U.S seamen stabed in the back, Pearl harbour.
well, I think it was not a senseless toy. in close combat actions, it surely would have proved it`s performance in the hands of a trained jap.
I guess that because “sharp beating weapons” like the spades in special very often proved more effective than bayonets in such situations. it is more versatile anyway, because you can hit/cut AND stab with a sword and it not as cumbersome in use as the bayonet.
I have read a lot of reports where the use of the bayonet was judged as not as effective as many in our days think (WWI and WWII german troops often favoured the spade in close combat acions, it was simply better in many hand to hand combat situations) there was always the danger that the bayonet would brake or get stuck and so the attacker could also be killed/wounded easily. the psychological effect indeed was a great one, but the same would be with the katana. beside all this, there were studies at the end of the war, that figured out that by far most situations in close combats were decided with a SHOT and not with any sort of knife or spade etc. so the germans decided not to make a mount for fixing a bayonet on the sturmgewehr 44 as a result.
interesting though, that all modern armies use bayonets.
jens
Never hurt to have and spare cutting edge in your gear. I saw some pics of an soldier with a bloody blade knife in some close combat in Irak, I try post those in here.
sounds interesting. if someone is really interested in the issue of sharp weapons, bayonets in special, I can recommend this nice book (often found on www.ebay.de or www.egun.de).
allthough it is in german, it has a lot of rare pics and is a must-have for any collector. you will find a lot of information on the tactics in using bayonets.
jens
Interesting. By the way the last bayonettte charge I have knowledge was performed by Britische soldiers in the malvinas war.
There was quite a well reported one almost three years ago at Danny Boy, a checkpoint about 15 km south of Al Amarah in Iraq.
Led by Cpl Byles of 1PWRR on 14 May 04 (IIRC.)
Bayoneting with the SA80 ?
damn…that did not seems a easy work with this short rifle.
Agreed, I was a lot happier with a real rifle.
That said, there were bayonets that fitted the STENs and the Uzi too.
The SLR for example :rolleyes:
Edged weapons in Irak:
Cpl. Samuel Toloza of El Salvador’s Cuscatlan Battalion displays his bloodstained knife that he used to fend off Iraqi gunmen in Najaf, Iraq, last Saturday.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20040503-115511-7092r.htm
Believe or not the blade is not completely trown away from the battlefield. Even in our days. That fact I guess might work for the katana in ww2.
Nope, there was one by a platoon of Royal Marines about two years ago in Southern Iraq. They found themselves beingoutnumbered and surrounded by Iraqi insurgents and their ammo was getting low, so the Lieutenant ordered bayonets fixed (on the SA-80 of all rifles!) and let them charge. It seems that cold steel has a serious psychological effect, the Iraqis broke and ran.
Years ago in university I dabbled in Kendo, Japanese fencing. During this time I watched a contest between my instructor, the at this time European champion against the at this time German champion (they were using Shinais, bamboo practice swords). In the hands of somebody who knows how to use a Katana, it is a deadly close combat weapon. But to get to any degree of proficiency with it (and I don’t mean to use it to execute tied up prisoners), it takes years.
Jan
Actually yes…the last one that I have knowledge happen in 1982…I just not being familiar with the sucesses in Irak today since the Argentine military is not involved.
In any case that was refered by Cuts earlier:
Hi Panzerknacker, I have some insights on the Katana, its construction, and use.
the ability to produce large pieces of steel in the middle ages, was unknown. generally, only smaller pieces were possible, and so to make a blade, or any tool requiring steel with higher carbon content, the most part was made of iron, and the edge steel was welded to it in the forge. ( a difficult task for any but the most experienced smith. ) this was used for simple blades, and cutting tools for centuries. this conserved the smaller quantities of tool steel then available.
the Japanese methods for blade making were developed over some space of time, and utilized interleaved pieces of iron and steel,(called a “skelp” which were then fluxed, and hammer welded at forge to ultimately produce a “billet”. This was done by repeatedly drawing out the piece lengthwise, to what ever length was best, then notching the piece with a chisel, folding while hot, and welding again. this process when repeated many times, (much like making pasta noodles, ) doubled the number of layers each time the piece was folded, and rewelded.
The main benefit of this treatment was to allow the carbon in the tool steel, to migrate under heating to the nearly no carbon iron, homogenizing the whole of the metal, (nearly)the laminal nature of the billet so made, also imparted great resilience over the entire length of the blade when completed. Great care had to be taken to keep inclusions from entering the piece during the fold/weld process, as these little bits of dirt, and silicate clinker, could weaken the weld between layers.
the billet created by this method would be drawn out, to the desired shape for the blade it would become, and would then be heat treated to relieve stresses from the forging process, and impart the need hardness strength, and toughness required for it to be useful. after further finishing, it would be tempered by means of processes known mostly only to the smiths that made them, (they all had their own secrets about this part, ) using river sand to protect the area of the edge so the spine could heat properly was on way to tell who did the work, they all had their own pattern for applying the sand paste to the edge, (the wavy line near the edge, ) sort of a signature.the final polishing, and testingwould be done, and The tang would be stamped with pertinant information about the maker, the owner, and whatever else they might think important to record. I’ve seen many tang inscriptions, but I cant read Japanese idiogaphs, so I dont know what they say.
This way of sword making was not used on the WW2 military blades, tho most were hand forged, they were not folded, but made from then available single pieces of tool steel. Tho prehaps some who could afford it may have had blades made in the old way for them. Many, took ancient family hierloom swords to combat, to honor their ancestors, and utilize the spirit of the blade to defeat an enemy.
It was common practise for ancient bladesmiths to sing a chant while creating a blade,they believed this would infuse a spirit into the blade, to make it strong, and successful in battle. (modern folks think the benefit if singing was to establish a good forging rhythm,to make the grainlines flow more evenly through the metal.but I’m not so sure, ) Which ever it was, they did a marverlous job making blades that have endured in excellent condition to this day.
The purpose of carrying a sword into modern combat is usually ceremonial, a tool to use to lead a charge, or direct troop movements, since it is easily seen above the heads of the troops. It is also a tool of inspiration, in that the weapon is pointed towards the enemy to signal intent to engage and fight. sort of an “En guarde” signal to the enemy. That they were useful in a battle is not impossible, in close fighting, a trained swordsman can do great harm in a short time. but at any distance, its still “bringing a knife to a gunfight”. Now, someone mentioned deflecting bullets or cutting them in two with a Katana, I assume stories of battle, nearly any edged metal will cut a bullet fired at it, thats been a “wild West” show amusment for ages. that a man with a sword could intercept a bullet in flight, is not possible but by merest chance.
last little bit, you can buy blades made in the pattern welded style these days, even Katana blades, which you can build into a sword of your choice, or purchase completed swords with pattern blades, pocket knives too. Though this is not the true Damascus blade, it does look like it, so they are sold with that name. The true Damascus steel is another metal, for another story. - Raspenau -
That sword is not original. there should be no discoloration on the blade, not sure of the grip either. I owned such a sword, and it had a more traditional hilt on it, not of cast metal. If you like this sword, you might get an outside opinion from a collector, I would encourage you to do so, there are lots of fakes out there these days, Even if it is genuine, the heat colors should not be there at all. I think someone may have straightened a bent blade.
the Japanese Katana Sword saw about as much action as the Bayonet saw from evey other country, but the sword goes back to the wars during fuedal japan, and from this the rise in the number of the swords became a required armament that was used and required, mainly by the officers and the higher class soldiers. and the swords diddnt really exist to chop the heads off of the civillians, they were used in exactly the same reason why the bayonet existed. for close combat use
Here is a officer’s sword my Grandfather brought back from Cape Gloucester
I can only guess that this is a bullet deflection off the top of the handle
