M10 Tank Destroyer

All so true, but that was the only open top tank that the americans had used and many had seen devistation due to grenades being thrown through the top.

what about the M18 hellcat and the M36 jackson? the hellcat definitely was also developed with an “open roof”. the jackson too, I think. if you count the M7 priest to tanks, this one was also open. this construction had it`s drawbacks in close combat situations for sure and also when under fire from any sort of artillery, but for these actions, these tank destroyers or “artillery-carriers” were not made.

btw: has anyone also watched that the jagdtiger is missing one or even more road wheels in that nice video (first part, trial) from panzerknacker?

jens

o i think i saw that too in that vid

the m10 was used late in the war, made by USA and altered by the british, the british put in the british 17 pounder to wich at the time was the best allied anti-tank gun. thats about all that i know but can find out more or use this link http://www.audiemurphy.com/m10.htm

the m10 was cheap to make i guess cheaper then the m4 i think mostly because of its armor

I found myself laying awake last night, and wondering: why the US Army just simply didn’t put a modified enclosed turret on the M-10, and engineer what was a decent combat AFV into a MBT?

For whatever reason, the U.S. seemed to like having their Tank destroyers open topped. A good idea for a sandwich, but not so for a T.D.

at least, you save a lot of weight when you have an open top design, you can load and store the ammunition easier and maybe (?) the crew has some advantages in getting out of the iron grave when it is hit and starts to burn. and, the TD were not designed for an anti-infantry-role, so the missing armor on the top may be disregarded. also air strikes from the luftwaffe were pretty rare these days. but if I think of the cold weather in the european theater of war, bbrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I´d rather have a fully closed turret.

jens

I would recomend finding a copy of the Leavenworth Papers #12 ‘US Army Tank Destroyer Doctrine in WWII’’. Copys are cheap on eBay and in the used book stores. It is a short & critical discussion of the very brief existance of the US Army Tank Destroyer Corps and its vehicals.

The M10 was the result of a pecular development in US Army doctrine for mechanized warfare. The collapse of Poland and France in the face of modern mechanized combined arms warfare used by the Germans was misinterpreted by many. There was a misunderstanding and belief with some people that the Germans had accomplished all this with tanks alone. Some senior US Army leaders became concerned with this idea. The solution selected in late 1940 was the creation of a ‘Tank Destroyer Corps’. That is specialized Tank Destroyer brigades would fight the enemy tanks.

Consequently The US Army doctrine for the new warfare was specified as: Enemy tanks would be attacked & destroyed by tank destroyer groups of 2-3 battalions. The US tanks would not fight the enemys tanks, they would be designed & organized for attacking the other enemy forces. Their infantry, artillery, supply columns.

The TD units were to be have two types of combat vehicals,: light armored cars for scouting and covering the heavier vehicals flanks, and a larger tracked vehical carrying a large caliber gun as the primary weapon. Each TD unit also was to have a small engineer section for laying & removing mines and road blocks, and a 81mm mortar section to lay hasty smoke screens, suppress enemy infantry and similar tasks.

Initially specifications for a 90mm armed TD were favored, but it soon became clear it would be 2-3 years before a suitable 90mm gun could be available. Three interm vehicals were selected, a 37mm AT gun on a light truck, a old 75mm gun mounted on a halftrack, and the M10. In November of 1942 two TD battalions armed with the 37mm gun & the 75mm halftrack were sent to Africa as part of the Torch operation. Neither weapon was very effective The Axis tanks armed with 47mm, 50mm, and a few with the new 75mm long guns could easily deal with the trucks and halftracks. Replacement M10 were rushed to Africa and these proved effective against the Italian tanks or the MKIII & MkIV the Germans used in Tunisia. In Sicilly the M10 again proved effective vs the typical German tank.

The very few Tiger tanks that were in Tunisa and Sicilly were so rare they were seldom tested against the M10, and the Panther did not appear then. So, there was little concern about more powerfull German tanks.

In 1944 in France the M10 proved barely adaquate against the latest models of the MkIV and the Panther and of course inferior to the Tiger tanks. Thus the deployment of the new 90mm gun armed M36 was accelerated.

The original doctrine for the TD brigades was abandoned. Only one such brigade was formed & it was never sent into combat. Instead the corps & divsion commanders deployed the TD battalions as antitank companys amoung the infantry regiments. The infantry comanders used them as direct fire artillery as well as AT weapons. Their AP ammo was usefull for driving the enemy out of masonry buildings and for destroying bunkers, pill boxes & other field fortifications. In those roles they were used the same as the independant tank battalions that were attached to the US infantry divsions. In effect this doubled the ‘tank’ support in the average US army infantry divsion. (Note: after July 1944 the German panzer divsions averaged about fourty to fifty tanks after losses. A US infantry divsion with its independant tank battalion and a TD battalion averaged over 100 M10 & M4 Shermans.)

Originally the open top of the TD was not seen as a problem as it was not going to go anwhere near enemy infantry, but would blast apart enemy tanks from long range.

When originally selected in early 1941 for the M10 the 3" gun was vastly superior to the standard 37mm and 50mm guns used by the German tanks of 1941. The 75mm L24 used on the MkIV in 1941 was a short low velocity designed for shootng HE ammo. The obvious problem of course is that the “interm” M10 remained in production into 1944 while the better armored M36 with the 90mm gun stagnated in development. Had the original plans worked out the TD battalions that went ashore in Normandy would have all been equipped with the M36.

Shortly after 1945 the entire TD concept & doctrine was abandoned in offcial recognition of what the combat commanders had already done. The new M26 90mm gun tank and the M46 on the drawing boards were superior general purpose tanks and filled the TD role just as well as a specialized vehical.

Hi everyone…I am new here but I had a comparison question about the M10. If you were the unfortunate soldier to come up against a Panther or a Tiger in France in Mid 1944, which would you rather be in, an M4 or an M10? It seems like the armor was a little thicker on the M10 and you might have a fighting chance against the Tiger but you were pretty much screwed against a Panther.

Generally the M10 would be better positioned. Since these were not susposed to be assualt weapons like the M4 they were usually, but not always, positioned to take advantage of the terrain and they were moved forward in a less risky manner than the M4. the gun of the M10 was much better AP weapon then the 75mm gun of the M4.

Actually I’d prefer the M36.

now if you want to live a little longer and still almost take down the tiger orr panther i would be in a Firefly m4 but still i would have to pick the m10 because it might be alble to out manuver and take down with its power

since no one mentioned it. the m10 was had a hand cranked turret which took like 5 minutes to do a full 360 degrees turn. another weakness. m10 was still a great tank destroyer. i like the jagdpanther better, sloped armour, low profile and the awesome 8.8 mm gun plus it had a great speed. ps.COH is awesome

do you mean 88 mm gun and yes the m10 had better speed because of the lighter load and yeah, CoH does rule:)

Most of the tanks I rode on, as a artillery FO, did the gross alignment of the gun by turning the tank which takes just a few seconds. The final aim was done with the turret rotation. This has the extra benifit of turning the frontal armor towards what you are shooting at.

The open top isnt artillery friendly though!

I believe the term is “grenade basket.”

the m10 was the most used tank destroyer i think am i right ? is there anyone who can sent me the difference between the m10 and the m36 ?

The m36 is just a more advanvced version with a better mm of a cannon, and was made later in the years

thanks for the info sergeant . but could you give me plus info ?

sure

Here is some good ol fashion wiki help

Type Tank destroyer
Place of origin United States
Specifications
Weight 29 tonnes (64,000 lb)
Length 7.46 m (24.5 ft) (w/ gun)
5.97 m (19.6 ft) (w/o gun)
Width 3.05 m (10 ft)
Height 3.28 m (10.8 ft)
Crew 5 (Commander, (3x) gun crew, driver)


Armor 9 - 108 mm (0.35 - 4.25 in)
Primary
armament 90 mm M3 gun
47 rounds
Secondary
armament .50 cal Browning M2HB machine gun
1,000 rounds
Engine Ford GAA V-8 gasoline
450 hp (336 kW)
Power/weight 15.5 hp/tonne
Suspension Vertical Volute Spring Suspension (VVSS)
Operational
range 240 km (150 mi)

only about 1200 were made, not really a mass produced product
the 90 mm gun and better aromor helped the americans to go against the panthers and the tigers