Malmedy

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#21

The Dachau massacre, although real, is a poor comparison on moral grounds or otherwise. The best estimates are that only 17 German SS were killed, the massacre was a spontaneous crime of passion carried out with the primary responsibility of junior officers (although I concede Malmedy probably was also to an extent) and reluctantly by those under their command. The massacre was halted --before it became any larger of a blood bath than it was-- by a senior officer threatening to shoot his own men if they continued. But you should know this already as this has been discussed in a thread I started on the subject and don’t really need reminding of it.

I would also state that the motivations of each of the killers is in question are a key distinction. Yes, US soldiers shot a few SS troopers after overrunning a concentration camp filled with the festering dead whereas the Waffen SS simply murdered numbers of US soldiers simply because they were a nuisance. But another question is: what is your point?

I’ve never stated that Americans are any better necessarily than anyone else. And how does the Massacre at Dachau episode in any way legitimize or lesson the actions of the Waffen (German and Romanian) SS actions during the Ardennes Offensive - much of which involved the wanton murder of Belgian civilians. I might also remind you that there are similar instances of Soviet Red Army soldiers who shot concentration camp guards outright and “stories” or their rampages through German towns where anyone found living in a house adorned with Waffen SS regalia --an indication a serving family member-- were almost automatically killed. I might also point out that like the American soldiers who were the ringleaders in the “Vengeance at Dachau” episode, the soldiers serving under Peiper and indeed Peiper himself, all had their death sentences commuted and they were largely exonerated mainly due to procedural errors in the trial and during the investigation conducted (very poorly) by the US Army Counterintelligence Corp and various questionable interrogation tactics they used that amounted to torture. So in the end, they got off. But that doesn’t mean history should exonerate them and the memory of the killed anymore than any other victims of WWII atrocities…

#22

yes we had disscussed it before, i have to notice - the figures of killed that day was much more then 17.
up to 40-50 we agreed.
Not need to ignore that, and call the any source that claims the figures , different from officially admitted, as “revisionist”.

I would also state that the motivations of each of the killers is in question are a key distinction. Yes, US soldiers shot a few SS troopers after overrunning a concentration camp filled with the festering dead whereas the Waffen SS simply murdered numbers of US soldiers simply because they were a nuisance. But another question is: what is your point?

My point is not wich you might to fear, Nick.
I/m not going to start the trolling.
Revisionists claim there was a “lost million” of German pows that were supposedly murdered by both Red Army and Allies.
We can’t take it as serious, but hardly we might to present the the violence to Germans as “rare episodic” from Allies.
Now to the happines we have learned more about violence by Red Army in GErmany.This is very right.
IBut i strongly doubt that the Red Army , Wermact and SS was only the bad side of this war.
I hope you’ve understood.

I’ve never stated that Americans are any better necessarily than anyone else. And how does the Massacre at Dachau episode in any way legitimize or lesson the actions of the Waffen (German and Romanian) SS actions during the Ardennes Offensive - much of which involved the wanton murder of Belgian civilians. I might also remind you that there are similar instances of Soviet Red Army soldiers who shot concentration camp guards outright and “stories” or their rampages through German towns where anyone found living in a house adorned with Waffen SS regalia --an indication a serving family member-- were almost automatically killed. I might also point out that like the American soldiers who were the ringleaders in the “Vengeance at Dachau” episode, the soldiers serving under Peiper and indeed Peiper himself, all had their death sentences commuted and they were largely exonerated mainly due to procedural errors in the trial and during the investigation conducted (very poorly) by the US Army Counterintelligence Corp and various questionable interrogation tactics they used that amounted to torture. So in the end, they got off. But that doesn’t mean history should exonerate them and the memory of the killed anymore than any other victims of WWII atrocities…

I think , the war criminals should be judged.
Recently in Baltic states there were a process against former soviet partisan Vasiliy Kononov, who blaimed in murdering dozen of civils as “retrebution” for colloboration with GErmans SS. The man is about 70 age old and he still considering as “war criminal”.This is positive step IMO. The war is war , but war crime is crime.
There a lot also a simular process over world the former Nazic criminals.
I don’t realy think the US Counterintelligence Corp actualy cared to judge the criminals at that conditions , when war still went.

#23

Very interesting.:wink:

#24

It probably is closer to 40 or so. My figure was the number killed when thrown up against the wall and shot (around 17 SS dead). Individuals were said to have summarily executed SS soldiers at various points during the battle and after. I think the estimate total was around 30 to 40 total IIRC.n

My point is not wich you might to fear, Nick.
I/m not going to start the trolling.

I don’t think of you as a troll. Hypersensitive sometimes, but not a troll. :slight_smile:

Revisionists claim there was a “lost million” of German pows that were supposedly murdered by both Red Army and Allies.
We can’t take it as serious, but hardly we might to present the the violence to Germans as “rare episodic” from Allies.
Now to the happines we have learned more about violence by Red Army in GErmany.This is very right.
IBut i strongly doubt that the Red Army , Wermact and SS was only the bad side of this war.
I hope you’ve understood.

Of course. I think the US and British Armies (in Europe, North Africa, and the Med) fought more in accordance to the Geneva Convention than the other armies. That’s not to say that small scale massacres and illegal killings didn’t happen. I recall that a US Army Captain and Master Sergeant were both tried and convicted under Courts Martial for massacres of German and Italian soldiers (about 15-40 in two separate instances IIRC) in Sicily in order to nip it in the bud early on and to enforce discipline in a relatively new conscript army which lacked it at times.

That’s not to say that instances of individual executions didn’t happen or that commanders didn’t look the other way if German snipers or some SS members were shot outright after surrendering. There was of course also a counter-massacre alleged to have been carried out during the Battle of the Bulge of some SS members. But the truth is that Malmedy was one of the most idiotic things the German could have done because it only stiffened the resolve of GIs that might otherwise have surrendered or ran…

As far as German prisoners, once they managed to be transferred out of the battle areas, they were pretty well treated by their American captors, and probably almost treated too well in continental America as many saw them as being coddled and receiving better food than GIs or even the average US civilian during rationing. It should be said that after the surrender (about 1946), things went the other way and German servicemen were essentially treated as convicts at hard labor with their rations cut for their remaining captivity in the US. As for the German POWs held by the Soviet Gov’t, yes they had it very rough, but the Soviets treated German POWs better, or at least no worse, than the Germans treated their POWs captured in 1941…

I think , the war criminals should be judged.
Recently in Baltic states there were a process against former soviet partisan Vasiliy Kononov, who blaimed in murdering dozen of civils as “retrebution” for colloboration with GErmans SS. The man is about 70 age old and he still considering as “war criminal”.This is positive step IMO. The war is war , but war crime is crime.
There a lot also a simular process over world the former Nazic criminals.
I don’t realy think the US Counterintelligence Corp actualy cared to judge the criminals at that conditions , when war still went.

It was after the War the US CIC carried out the investigation. They botched it severally and used various hard cell methods to extract confessions including mock executions, beatings, and deprivations of various sort. The Germans also received a very good defense and there was political pressure from the extreme “McCarthyist” US right wing to lett them be with time-served. I don’t think Peiper was himself involved in the massacres of US troops, he denied it to other US prisoners and there was no overall conspiracy to kill them as most US troops taken prisoner were obviously not killed, some said they were treated relatively well…

#25

Thanks for inserting some ongoing rationality in a thread that needs it.

I suppose most will never come to light, but an awful lot of negotiating and posturing went on the the dark regarding the end of WW2.

One interesting and somewhat sad revelation is, as known, the more McCarthy was right, nutty as he was.