Middle east crisis

Anybody else think it’s funny they call themselves Israeli Defense Forces, or is that just a very pacifist translation of the Hebrew name?

And the comparison to the Warsaw Ghetto appears to me as frustratingly fitting - if any people should know better, then the Jews, especially since many Holocaust survivors in fact moved to Israel. Sadly, this is another showcase that power corrupts…

It is somewhat sad to see that the Jews and Muslims seem to have become bitter enemies - especially considering the Muslims have historically treated them a lot better than most Christian nations - The English Expulsion and Persecution of Jews, the Spanish Inquisition and the Holocaust come to mind…

As with most things, one shouldn’t stereotype people.

I have a problem with Zionists, Zionist Israelis, Zionist Jews, fundamentalist Christians who believe Israel must be supported to ensure the second coming of Christ, and everyone else who supports Israel’s intransigence and belligerence or who is just a supporter of absurd and harmful beliefs and actions.

I do not, however, have a problem with Jews per se.

I’m not alone in that, as there is a similar and much more bitter division between Jews here and internationally, although the Zionists generally have the upper hand as they’re the ones with political and social influence among Jewish communities in the West.

Australian Jews protest against Israel’s action
Andrew West and Jonathan Pearlman
January 6, 2009

MORE than 100 Australian Jews, including two award-winning novelists and a former federal cabinet minister, have signed a statement condemning Israel’s siege of Gaza, heightening tensions within the local Jewish community over the violence.

The Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, meanwhile called yesterday for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza but refused to criticise the Israeli offensive.

Authors Linda Jaivin and Sara Dowse, the environment minister in the Whitlam government, Moss Cass, and the NSW Greens leader, Ian Cohen, are among 120 Australian Jews to accuse the Israeli Government of a “grossly disproportionate military assault on Gaza because it was Israel that violated the fragile truce on November 4, 2008”.

Their statement has provoked a backlash from leaders of Australia’s main Jewish groups, who argue that Israel is acting in self-defence.

The statement was co-ordinated, but not endorsed, by the group Independent Australian Jewish Voices. It is part of an international outcry from dissident Jewish groups, including J Street in the US and Gush Shalom in Israel.

The signatories agree that Israel has a right to defend itself but say “the assault on the population of Gaza will only inflame hatred of Jews, and of the state of Israel, while doing nothing to protect the lives of Israelis”.

They argue that “crude home-made rockets” fired by the Hamas-led government in Gaza have caused relatively few Israeli casualties. “By contrast, Israeli bombardment has caused around 400 deaths and 2000 casualties, including a large proportion of women and children.”

Other signatories include the controversial anti-Zionist writer Antony Loewenstein, the literary critic Andrew Riemer, and academics Andrew Benjamin, Gavin Kitching, David Goodman and Michele Grossman.

“This is a solid minority of leading Jewish figures who are sick and tired of being told what Jews should think about Israel and are appalled by Israel’s crimes in Gaza,” Mr Loewenstein said.

But the executive director of the Australia/Israel and Jewish Affairs Council, Colin Rubenstein, accused the signatories of being “indifferent to Israel’s suffering” from repeated rocket attacks from Hamas.

“The comments are grossly ill informed, almost stunning in their ignorance, on the history of the ceasefire and its subsequent breakdown, Hamas’s demands, Hamas’s constitution, Hamas’s willingness to negotiate and other matters,” Dr Rubenstein said.

“They propose that the population of southern Israel must continue to live under constant rocket bombardment, opposing all practical efforts to actually invoke the right to self-defence the signatories say they recognise.”

The head of the NSW Jewish Board of Deputies, Vic Alhadeff, declined to comment directly on the dissenters’ statement but also blamed the crisis in Gaza on Hamas, saying it had fired more than 8000 rockets and mortars into Israel since 2001.

“All the civilian casualties are a tragedy. They stem from the fact that Hamas cynically locates its weapons and fighters in the midst of the Palestinian civilian population,” he said.

In his first comments on the conflict after a 10-day holiday, Mr Rudd appealed for a diplomatic solution that would bring an end to Hamas rocket fire and the Israeli blockade of the territory.

"All Australians are concerned about the humanitarian implications of this conflict.

“And it is critical therefore for Israel to meet its humanitarian obligations under international humanitarian law towards the people of Gaza, in ensuring that they have access to basic goods, food and humanitarian assistance and medical supplies,” he said.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2009/01/05/1231003936981.html

Not unusually, I’m pissed off with whoever the current Australian Prime Minister happens to be (I know who he is, but they’re about all the same on this point) for doing the usual pro-Zionist neutral or supportive comment. Our Prime Ministers, from both parties, know where their party’s donations come from and they’re not stupid enough to choke that particular golden goose, the weak unprincipled little turds they are, just like every politician forced to choose between principle and the path to power.

A pox on the lot of them.

Almost makes me begin to wonder how it is that the world continues on the same sorry path year after year when we have politicians running it. :rolleyes:

The Israeli governments have consistently served the same function for Israelis and wider Jews as the Dubya government has for Americans: they have each squandered the massive goodwill of the rest of the world, generated by unfair attacks upon them by fanatics, by being arrogant and belligerent in trampling upon the rights and basic humanity of those who oppose their continuing arrogance and belligerence.

A pox on the lot of them.

**Reprinted from a post I made at another board.

The central problem is this - that Israel has killed between 800 and 900 Palestinians (I can’t keep up with the death toll) to about four Israelis killed by rockets and is still f@(king creating “Holocaust” menageries in their museums featuring Hamas Rocket parts which is almost comical and sickening at the same time. Not only are they insulting the intelligences of thinking adults, they’re also effectively spitting on the collective grave of Holocaust victims with such trite bullshatting…

While Israel’s actions are nowhere near Nazi Germany’s in scale and severity, parallels still exist. Those being the use of reprisals and collective punishment of civilians. While I do not think Israel specifically targets civilians to kill them, I think there is little weight given to their lives and the mentality definitely resembles that of the Aryan “master race” culling the impure “inferior races.”

On NBC News, there was a story of how two Palestinian infants were later found (still alive miraculously) in rubble clinging to their dead mothers for FOUR DAYS after their homes had been bombed and demolished. The area had been surrounded by IDF troops for that time and they REFUSED to allow the Red Cross in to check and clear the area of wounded and dead. To me, this seems like the height of callousness and disregard for human life that makes them no better than the Hamas “terrorists” they’re fighting. Especially given the fact that the IDF, like many other contemporary militaries around the world, started at least partially as a terrorist group that used bombings and assassinations to achieve their ends…

To be fair though, a key aspect for the support of NORAID was the obvious collusion (in the past) between factions of British intelligence and the old RUC with Protestant paramilitaries/terrorists…

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/2955941.stm

I’m not trying to start a pissing match here, nor am I in any way apologizing for NORAID. I in fact basically chased one of those guys out of a local (pseudo)“Irish” pub years ago on the eve of a St. Paddy’s day by confronting him with his propagandist, and again “pseudo,” history…

Jim Shortt=P.O.S.

Commentary | AIPAC
‘Israel Lobby’ bad for Israel, the U.S.

BY RABBI BRUCE WARSHAL

Oh my God, someone has publicly outed the “Israel Lobby.” For those readers who do not closely follow the machinations in academia, let me explain. John Walt, the academic dean of the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, and John Mearsheimer, a political scientist at the University of Chicago, have written a blistering critique of the Jewish lobby, focusing primarily on AIPAC.

Their main complaint is that “the thrust of US policy in the region (the Middle East) derives almost entirely from domestic politics, and especially the activities of the ‘Israel Lobby’.” There is much with which to disagree in the paper, including their assertion that Israel is not a vital strategic asset (there are many generals who would challenge that assertion). But there is also much truth, if we would only be honest with ourselves.

The usual suspects have jumped on the bandwagon, not merely to criticize but to condemn the paper in vitriolic words. Rep. Eliot Engel, a Democrat who represents the Bronx, declared it “anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist drivel.” This is somewhat ironic since one of the complaints of Walt and Mearsheimer is that anyone who criticizes Israel is automatically labeled anti-Semitic. The ubiquitous Alan Dershowitz accused the authors of cribbing from neo-Nazi Web sites, which was a sophisticated way of tarnishing them as anti-Semites without using the phrase. The right-wing New York Sun called it a “scandal” and warned that if Harvard is not careful, “the Kennedy School will become known as Bir Zeit on the Charles.”

The Forward was most responsible. Before writing an extensive critical analysis of the paper it acknowledged that “the authors are not fringe gadflies but two of America’s most respected foreign-affairs theorists. … Though it’s tempting, they can’t be dismissed as cranks outside the mainstream. They are the mainstream.”

I agree with Walt and Mearsheimer that AIPAC controls our American government policy toward Israel. But in their paper the two political scientists point out that, “In its basic operations, the Israel Lobby is no different from the farm lobby, steel or textile workers’ unions, or other ethnic lobbies. There is nothing improper about American Jews and their Christian allies attempting to sway US policy; the Lobby’s activities are not a conspiracy of the sort depicted in tracts like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.”

Coming from South Florida, I am acutely aware that our government policy toward Cuba is dictated by the Cuban Lobby. Why else would we have such an absurd opposition to Castro? If we can make peace with Red China and the “evil empire” of the Soviet Union, why do we continue an embargo against an obscure Communist island, if it were not for domestic political pressure? So it is with the Jewish domestic lobby. My complaint is that the self-appointed Jewish leaders who control AIPAC and other positions of power within the Jewish community do not represent the best interests of Jews, Israel or the United States in the long run.

Let’s zero in on AIPAC. It is controlled by right-wing, rich Jewish neo-conservatives. As one manifestation of the truth of this assertion one merely has to look at its annual meeting this past month. At a time when Vice President Cheney’s popularity has dropped below 20 percent, the 4,500 delegates to the AIPAC convention gave him a standing ovation for almost a minute before he even opened his mouth and then proceeded to give him 48 rounds of applause in a 35-minute speech. (As my colleague Leonard Fein pointed out, that’s once every 43.7 seconds). Considering that 75 percent of American Jews voted for Kerry, it is obvious that these people are out of the mainstream of Jewish thought.

At the same conference, preceding the recent Israeli elections, these delegates were addressed by Ehud Olmert (Kadima), Amir Peretz (Labor) and Benjamin Netanyahu (Likud) by video link from Israel. Olmert and Peretz received polite applause. The AIPAC delegates cheered enthusiastically for Netanyahu, especially when he presented his hard line that was overwhelmingly rejected by the Israeli electorate. Once a great organization, today AIPAC does not even represent the feelings of the average Israeli, let alone the average American Jew.

This American Jewish neo-conservatism is unhealthy not only for America but for Israel as well. A prime example: The Israeli press reports that Israel is trying to find a way to deal with the Palestinians while not dealing with Hamas. Official public statements aside, they realize that they cannot cut off all contacts with the Palestinians and that the world cannot discontinue financial help; otherwise Israel will find a million starving Palestinians on its border, and this will not lead to peace or security for Israel. Privately, the Israeli government was against the Palestinian Anti-Terrorism Act (the Ross-Lehtinen-Lantos bill) which recently passed the House of Representatives. It would cut off all American contacts with the Palestinian Authority, even with its president Mahmoud Abbas, who is a moderate seeking peace. Despite Israel’s private reservations, AIPAC not only pushed this bill, it was instrumental in writing it. Even though the AIPAC candidate lost in Israel, he won in the U.S. House of Representatives. Hopefully, the Senate and the White House will correct this.

Beware that you are reading treasonable material. If you “out” the Israeli lobby and you are Gentile, you’re branded an anti-Semite; if you are Jewish, you’re obviously a self-hating Jew. The Jewish establishment abides no criticism of Israel. You don’t agree with me? Take this example: Last month a pro-Palestinian play entitled My Name is Rachel Corrie was to open at the New York Theatre Workshop, a “progressive” company on East Fourth Street. The play is based on the writings of a young British girl who was crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer when she was protesting the demolition of Palestinian homes in Gaza two years ago. Although the play was widely praised in London last year, it never opened in New York. The theater producers spoke to the ADL and other Jewish leaders, including big-money Jews on its board, and that was the end of that. But, of course, we don’t “censor” discussion concerning Israel. We just politely give our opinions and the voice of the other side disappears.

Another example: 400 rabbis, including myself, signed a letter sponsored by Brit Tzedek v’Shalom that appeared in the Forward this past month. It was a mildly liberal statement that proclaimed that “we are deeply troubled by the recent victory of Hamas,” but went on to urge “indirect assistance to the Palestinian people via NGO’s, with the appropriate conditions to ensure that it does not reach the hands of terrorists.” Pretty mild stuff. Yet pulpit rabbis across this country who signed the letter have reported a concerted effort to silence them. The letter has been branded a “piece of back-stabbing abandonment of the Jews of Israel.” Synagogue boards have been pressured to silence their rabbis by that loose coalition called the “Israel Lobby.”

Just another example of the Jewish establishment stifling any discussion of Israel that does not conform to the neo-conservative tenets of AIPAC and its cohorts. Beware of these self-appointed guardians of Israel and Jewish values. In the end they will destroy everything that makes Judaism a compassionate religion, and if in their zeal they do not destroy Israel, they certainly will not make it more secure.

Link

“John Walt, the academic dean of the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, and John Mearsheimer, a political scientist at the University of Chicago, have written a blistering critique of the Jewish lobby, focusing primarily on AIPAC.” This can be found here as a PDF document.

True, but I doubt Israel organizes these Holocaust memorials, but I doubt it’s out of ignorance/arrogance. I consider them doing that pretty well calculated.
By keeping the Holocaust a main factor, and claiming that the Palestinians want to do the same thing to them, they pretty much shut up the western nations at the same time as they convince uninformed people for their cause.

There are some major differences between the Holocaust and the Arab intentions for Israel, aside the technological means and “efficiency”.

While the Holocaust was an event rooted in a deep, pretty much unfounded hate for Jews, the Arab hate for Israel is, depending on the point of view, pretty comprehensible.

Palestinians had their land taken away, not only once when Israel was created, but continuously throughout the last half of the century through Israeli settlements on Arab land, which was immediately annexed into Israel. In the ensuing war(s), Israel captured and annexed more land, including the “Holy City”, Jerusalem.
Arabs were sent into locations that can be described as anything between Ghettos and Reservoirs.
The low-casualty missile attacks by Arab terrorists were, and currently once again are, countered with disproportionate Israeli military onslaughts with huge casualties on the Arab site, which aren’t reluctant to raid into neutral foreign countries, too.

Are these overreactions caused by an Israeli paranoia of another Holocaust or simply by a militaristic regime? That’s something one can argue about, but what’s clear is that, in the recent years, these neutral nations have been relatively tolerant of these attacks, and aside of anti-Semitic talk, have restrained from military actions (Probably because they know they wouldn’t win, as the West would not accept a destruction of Israel).

Also, did you notice how I restrained from saying Jews, and preferred to use Israel instead? That’s because this is another one of my arguments.

The current crisis aside, I highly doubt that the Muslim world really hates Jews per se. It is more the institution of the Israeli state on what they perceive as their territory that pisses them off.
If it wasn’t for Israel, I am more than sure the Muslim world wouldn’t mind them, just the same way they didn’t mind them over the last two millennium.

Why limit it to that?

The Israelis have cordoned the people in Gaza and are bombarding them when they have no means of escape (after previously being screwed by the Israelis economically and otherwise by being cordoned in Gaza).

I have no response in regard of the political questions, is a conflict that is alien to me, probably if somebody forced me to choose in wich side I am I would choose the Israeli side, as you might know I havent any good feeling toward the muslims.

My remark in regard of the use of WP shell was because that type of ammunition cover a large area when airburst ( like the one used in this days) so you cannot argue “surgical precision” with that.

Mohammed himself killed plenty of jews. He even made a detour on one of his raids specifically to kill them. Since their prophet is their role model in every aspect the muslims would really hate jews even without israel.
And the muslims all over europe clearly demonstrate their generally peaceful attitude on occasions like these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp-lwSe2llg&eurl=http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024365.php

http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/01/10/nyheter/demonstrasjon/oslo/innenriks/vold/4325433/

or the plethora of similar examples from europe.

And while they cry out loud about 900 dead palestineans no one even ever mentions the tens of thousands who are actually being systematically killed by muslim hordes in darfur or nigeria or anywhere else they are. Muslims are a bunch of hypocritical jokes, bad ones for that matter.

And here is a little reminder to those fools of you who think there could be any common ground in the long run with likes of hamas (or in my very personal opinion: any muslims) of what they can expect for themselves or their descendants as a result of their foolishness:

http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/Hamas_bombs_Gaza_Israel/2009/01/09/169756.html

Ok, if the Muslims really hated Jews sooo much because their religion told them so, why did they repeatedly allow Jews to take refugee in their countries, mainly the Ottoman Empire, over the last 2000 years, whenever the Jews were persecuted in Christian Europe?

Especially the Ottoman Empire needed Jews to finance their wars against Christianity, as they forced them to pay a comparatively high tax, at the same time however offering them protection from prosecution.

Of course there were attacks on Jews in Muslim nations back then, too, but they never - to my (relatively limited) knowledge - reached the scale of Christian European antisemitism.

What you see nowadays is the hate of a (rightfully) infuriated Muslim world at the often arbitrary military and economic actions of the state of Israel. Sadly, many of these guys don’t seem to be able to realize who they actually hate, so they just go for the entire Jewry at once, with Israel doing relatively little to appease them, and rather arrogantly threatening them.

By the way when I wrote:

My remark in regard of the use of WP shell was because that type of ammunition cover a large area when airburst ( like the one used in this days) so you cannot argue “surgical precision” with that.

I mean:

My remark in regard of the use of WP shell was because that type of ammunition cover a large area when airburst ( like the one used in this days) so you cannot claim surgical precision with that

It’s a question of definitions, Panzerknacker :wink:

Maybe, when the Israeli Military High Command says “Surgical Precision”, they don’t mean they try only to hit terrorist/military targets, but rather, they try to get ever single human being in the area, no matter where they are hiding.

If they go for the latter definition, then yes, Incendiary artillery shells probably are the way to go, short of ABC weaponry and carpet bombing…

Well…I dont know about that, but definately is not the kind of weapons that can make a lot you friends overseas.
But I guess the IDF is in a point of no return, and dont care any other opinion than his own perception of the situation in Gaza.

This is the ONE and only Time I intend to post on this particular thread.

There is a white elephant sitting in the room, as it has since 1923, and NO modern government wishes to acknowledge nor be reminded of its’ glaring presence, which they collectively re-inforce ongoing ignorance of.

There IS NO such thing as a “Palestinian”.

The being does NOT infact exist.

“Palestine” along with Iran and Iraq were a convenient fabrication, mainly by France and the UK, for their own capitalist economic interests.
The then King Faisal of Saudi Arabia (not without commercial motive it is true, but this could easily have functioned well: it had, before) Offered to administer the region in Trust-Perpetual FOR Britain and France (and to a lesser degree the USA) without “Palestine” ever being created.

There never is, nor was, a specific “Palestinian” race.

What there was, and remains, is a broadly coalesced grouping of descendants of slaves of Pharoahs, thrown out of Egypt in its’ periodic famines, and force-migrated northwards. In subsequent centuries, that population group is absorbed into what becomes the Muslim world.

If anything, at this remove in time, that same population is Arab. Period.

One then has to ask why it is that the Arab world finds it so convenient to not absorb their own “cousins” into their own domestic populations.

The only thing the “Founding of the State of Israel” achieved in 1948 was the overturning of a deliberately artificial construct in the first place.
That that action also became the beginnings of the end of the Diaspora for the Jews themselves in no way excuses the local Arabs from caring for their own cousins, which actions the local Arab nations have consistently refused in all but the most minimal manner.

Wherefore, while certain elements of the population of Israel certainly have not done much to earn the goodwill of the nearer Arab Muslim nations, by that same token nor have those same Arab nations done anything significant in aid of their own kin.

In the early stages (1948) , the reason is obvious; ready-made cannonfodder to throw infront of Israeli guns.
That said supply of cannonfodder continues to this day is mere pragmatism on the part of those geographically near Arab nations.


Having outlined what I have above, I make My final points.

I am NOT “Pro Israel” NOR “Pro Arab”.
In racial terms, I see Jew and Muslim as the same thing : HUMAN.

However, while Israel in part at least risks being as bad as the place it was founded to forget : Let it be remembered : the Arab nations have routinely been every atom as bad, and for less reason.

Neither grouping is truly at fault, both can, and must learn co-existance at a decent and peaceful level, and the wider Arab/Muslim world should reign-in those of its’ own members who would disrupt that process.

Transmission ENDS.


Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

You make a lot of valid points, Uryaell, but I’ll have to disagree on one part:

It is true that the entire most middle eastern nations we know today weren’t nations before the end of WW1, they were all a part of the Ottoman Empire.

But this is exactly why the entire Arab world is so appalled by the Israeli state. They not only feel like Israel took the land from a neighbor, but in fact a part of themselves, a feeling that was a lot stronger back in 1948 than it is even today.

Why don’t they assimilate the ‘Palestinians’ into their own ranks? Because they believe/hope the fugitive camps remain a temporary necessity, and that these people will be able to return to their homes again soon.

Why are the ‘Palestinians’ so adamant that they want to go back exactly where they come from? Because the Britons had promised them their own country, to be called Palestine, in return for them fighting the Ottomans in WW1 (Lawrence of Arabia), and they feel they have the right to it.

In fact, the Israeli Jews aren’t as united as they might make us want to believe. A lot of the ‘Old Jews’, that lived in Palestine for Generations before the creation of Israel oppose the new Regime, as they, too, consider themselves Palestinian, not Israeli.
Sadly those Jews will be the losers no matter how the conflict ends. They are harassed in Israel for opposing the Regime, and they will be harassed in a new Palestine, for being Jewish. (something they hadn’t been harassed for in the old Palestine/Ottoman Empire, but will be now simply because of Israel)

Umm… this would be why the Jizya was only abolished by the Ottomans in 1856? It is NOT true to say that Jews were not harassed under the Ottomans - rather they merely suffered less persecution than under some other rulers.

They were a lot less harassed in the Ottoman Empire than in Europe…

Jews were most comfortable nation in the Ottoman Empire.
Who saved them in 1492 from spain When christian kingdom started to kill to arabs and jews there? Ottoman saved jews by ships and they came to Anatolia. They become citizen and so rich.Coz Turkish and muslims couldnt be rich in the Ottoman Empire.It was a kind of rule.Turkish people could be farmer or soldier.But there were no limit for jews and christiand in Ottoman Empire.

I can say that honestly; all craftsmans (jeweller, tailor adv) were armenian
All bankers, businessman were jews.

So they lived and still live in Anatolia in peace.
Problem is that when Ottoman felt down and go back to Anatolia from the middle east, Chaos started there. Some emperialist countries designated borders with ruler as they wanted.

This American Jewish neo-conservatism is unhealthy not only for America but for Israel as well.

So we have come back to what we’ve started from!:wink:
i.e the ethnic neo-conservatism is a sort of evil conspiracy?

I been deploy with my squadron (Antares) several years IN CAMP NAQUORA , SOTHthern lebano ras al naqoura israelian border of israel ROSH ANIKRA

I spent several years in the peace keeping, the middle east question could be soved easily, lebanon is a country that just live sucking money at other countries, flyng on lebanes sky u can see 100s hoiuses with a nice swimming pool some one have the swimming pool heart shape pinky, it means no powerty , if it is powerty because the lebanese governement want to keep peoples in powerty , lebanese cattolic maronite are now gettin over from muslim, europe and usa could stop it smash them easily , get pal;estinian in the right order, remember the muslim understand just the baton, but because petroleum USA and europe preferred to keep it in the same shapoe they are now