More classic Iron man

Back to the berets? You didn’t answer that one did you?

I wasn’t calling you an idiot over the last post - rather the previous idiotic and ill-informed posts you have made.

When you have been a soldier in an operational role in a foreign country, dealing with potentially hostile locals and hsving to win them over, please get back to me.

Until then, you don’t actually know what you are talking about. The only info you have is, at best, second hand. I suspect that the information and opinion you spout is, in fact, whatever is on the news at the moment and is skewed by whatever business rationale is seen by e.g. Fox/CNN as being important at this particular moment.

They probably went somewhere other than into the civilian crowd, like about 1-2 miles away would be my guess. What’s yours? :roll: [/quote]

Facetiousness does not help the argument.
I think I understand the direction of your views, but the question remains what happens to the rds ?

Every soldier is issued rounds. But I agree with my Canadian friend who said “If British soldiers are counting their rounds, that’s just f’d up. They must not be fighting the real war over there.”
[/quote]
Cheers Sherlock, it’s not a real war, it’s PSO !

Silly or not that’s what happens, Brit troops really do have to account for their individual rds. This sort of comment can only have been posted by someone who’s not been on these types of ops with the Brits.

Silly. Still blathering that garbage eh? Let me see now, how many Iraqi citizens did Amnesty International say were killed by cluster and other bombs from British planes that day on “Bloody Sunday”? 1200 civies in Basra? I think that was correct. What do you have to say about that? Nothing? It was all aimed fire? Did they count their bullets? :smiley: [/quote]
We may be speaking at cross purposes.

  1. The British Army posesses no air assets to deliver such weapons.
  2. I imagine that this ‘Bloody Sunday’ you mention is different to that day another group of terrorists have for years called by the same name.

From reading his posts I don’t believe that BDL does hate the US. It seems that he is passing on his views in relation to the fire discipline of those troops involved which would appear to be backed up by the video.

(My emboldenment)

(My emboldenment)

Hearts & minds ops are most definitely not measureable by how much cash one throws at the problem.
It starts with the man on the ground and how he treats the indigenous population.
Money does not enter into it.

What’s to answer? There was no question. I’m happy for them taking off their berets. The fact that they were the first to do it means they are innocent completely. Who could accuse them of killing civilians crealessly after doing that? :roll:

Whatever.

Like that means anything in this discussion. Let me know when you come back from Iraq with your team of investigators. If you ruinb into Amnesty International or UN investigators, tell them “Hi” for me!

Bullhocky. It has nothing to do with this and someone does not have to be a soldier to know anything about this at all. Get real. That’s like saying you have to be a professional photographer to know what you see when you look at a photograph. You’ve gone off the pier with that one.

That is all the information anyone sitting at a computer posting in a forum has, like you.

Amnesty International is made up of more liberals than anything dudey. If they were tempted to slant the facts, they’s slant it in favor of the British, but they haven’t. Good Lord, are you now trying to imply that even Amnesty International reports lies about such things? Besides, the facts of those events are available from many other places, including the United Nations.

A little info about them, just as trivia. Amnesty Internation was formed as a response to an event that took place in Spain years ago. Two college students raised a toast to freedom between themselves in a bar and were arrested for it.

Like that means anything in this discussion. Let me know when you come back from Iraq with your team of investigators. If you ruinb into Amnesty International or UN investigators, tell them “Hi” for me![/quote]
This is one of the cases where experience really does count. Treating the comment so flippantly is not a credible answer.

Bullhocky. It has nothing to do with this and someone does not have to be a soldier to know anything about this at all. Get real. That’s like saying you have to be a professional photographer to know what you see when you look at a photograph. You’ve gone off the pier with that one.[/quote]
The photographer/soldier trades are not analogous.

That is all the information anyone sitting at a computer posting in a forum has, like you.[/quote]
I think Tubby has better and closer information than someone sat afore a computer, as do a number of people who watch these boards.
Because one has access to a pc neither indicates their job nor their IQ.

There are a lot of questions. The rounds likely went off 1 1/2 miles into the edge of town somewhere, probably into the desert. They may have helped to save the soldiers lives, as i’m sure you can sumize. Other questions are" Why did the British drop bombs on civilians in Basra killing hundreds without dropping them where they could harm only the enemy? Why did they do that? Were they winning the “hearts and minds” of the Iraqis at the time? What about all the incidents where british soldiers killed unarmed civilians who were walking toward them trying to talk to them? Was that “winning the hearts and minds”? Why did they not take off their berets instead of killing that civilian?

What you are trying to do is very sad. You are trying fruitlessly to make the US look bad for something the British have done more of in Iraq than the US: kill innocent civilians, shoot carelessly, and spend money to help the Iraqis have things they need…

So that’s why the British are inncocent?

Bullhockey. The soldiers of every army have to account for thier fire. American soldiers do too. Are you suggesting that the British soldiers count every round and make a note about where the spent it? Good Lord dude. Are you saying US soldiers don’t have to answer for their gunfire? Just want to know what you are implying clearly, so we can get the information from the appropriate sources in here to back it up.

I was refering to the British dropping bombs on civilian in Basra and killing numerous civilians. It happened, it’s documented by the British military themselves. Are you going to say it didn’t happen now?

Let me clue you in. To spead a rumore that makes a flase claim is hatred. Now, as for the video, it showed care and consideration. More than the British showed when they opened fire upon people at a wedding and killed an 8yr old girl. You can cut the hypocritical crap now. We’ve seen that the british make the same bad mistakes in warfare that other nations do. We’ve seen that they can be careless, that they can fire upon people without knowing exactly whom they are shooting at first, that they can drop bombs of a city and kill numerous civilians instead of counting their rounds and making sure that their bombs don’t hurt anyone other than the enemy.

Oh but money does make a difference, unfortunately. Money is what many of these things cost. A billion bottles of distilled water are not free. Neither is are the materials to build a school for children or to build an electricity generation plant or a civic building. Britain could spend a lot of money on goods and supplies for the Iraqis too if they wanted. I’m sure they ARE spending some, how much I don’t know. One thing is certain: it’s one helluva lot less than the US is spending over there to help the Iraqis.

Is that what you are refering to?

Let’s get this clear so we can get the proof in on it - Are you saying that only the British do that sort of thing or that they are doing nearly as much of it as the US is? Are you saying that because some British soldiers took their berets off when they met with some Iraqis that the US is somehow not doing a good job of supporting the Iraqi people and trying to show them that they are on their side? Do you mean that because some British soldiers took off their berets the ones who shot civilians who approached them to tell them about a problem or were walking home from a friend’s house were innocent and not to be counted?

Let’s just be clear about this. Is that what you are claiming? Because if it is, I can provie a ton of information from all manner of sources that proves that’s not so, and even that the British are doing a small fraction as much to help the Iraqis as the US.

So let’s be clear about this. Is that what you are saying?

Indeed. You have not provided a credible answer to why you contend that British soldiers are innocent when they have killed so many Iraqi citizens carelessly while you are contending that the US soldiers are wreckless. Please, explain that. Please explain how one groupd of soldiers taking off their berets makes the other group who shot some unarmed civilians walking in their direction innocent of carelessness and guilty of “winning the hearts and minds” of the Iraqi people. Please explain your hypocricy.

No, he does not. I think the information is easily found, as I’ve shown you with numerous reports from Amnesty International about British soldiers killing civilians carelessly. That information is even available from the UN.

1 - 2 miles? But you told us not so long ago that 5.56mm ammunition was effective out to 300m. It stops being effective at 300m but has enough energy left to fly out another 2000m after it? My guess is that they went into whatver the vehicle is driving past at the time, whether it was civvies, buildings, desert or a camel farm.

Your President said in May 2003 that the war was over, how can we be fighting a war now? Every round fired by British soldiers has to be accounted for. Obviously if you fire 20 or 30 rounds in a contact, you say you fired 30 rounds. You don’t say “I fired one there and 2 there”. However since the British Army usually only fire aimed single shots, remebering what you fired at shouldn’t be that much of a problem.

The RAF were apparently dropping bombs, it should be that hard to count should it? Bombs gone, 1, 2, 3, 4 and his bombs are counted. Do you not think that pilots would count the number of bombs that fall, since they may like to know if they still have 2000pounds of high explosive strapped to their wings?

The UK does plenty of H&M works, luckily we don’t have as much work to do to make the Iraqis like us.

As a non soldier I would also question the wisdom of blasting all your ammo into the botanics, which you might need later.

Jan

Indeed. You have not provided a credible answer to why you contend that British soldiers are innocent when they have killed so many Iraqi citizens carelessly while you are contending that the US soldiers are wreckless. Please, explain that. Please explain how one groupd of soldiers taking off their berets makes the other group who shot some unarmed civilians walking in their direction innocent of carelessness and guilty of “winning the hearts and minds” of the Iraqi people. Please explain your hypocricy.

No, he does not. I think the information is easily found, as I’ve shown you with numerous reports from Amnesty International about British soldiers killing civilians carelessly. That information is even available from the UN.[/quote]

The simple fact that I was out there during the war phase means that I have, by definition, got first hand experience i.e. I have been there and seen what is going on. As you have said, you have read the information that you are using in this debate, that means that the information is, at best, second hand.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that reading about a situation is the same as living that situation. It is not. That is like saying that playing computer games is the same as fighting a war.

By the way, discharged rounds can and do kill even if they are shot into the air. I remember several cases brought into the Fd hospital where I was working where there had been celebrations going on and people had been firing weapons into the air (quite a typical thing to do in Arabic countries), I am sure not even you will disagree with physical principle that “what goes up must come down”?

This meant that people were hit by the rounds returning to earth. Out of the couple that I remember being brought in, IIRC one died of his head injuries but we managed to save the other ones arm.

Don’t think that by reading an Amnesty International report that you know better than someone who has been out there.

Are you really suggesting that I know less than you about how to do my job?

At 35 degrees the rounds likely went 3600m, since about 30-35 degrees gives maximum range (it’s NOT 45 degrees for max range, btw - that’s only true in a vacuum, and for some arty pieces max range is well above 45 degrees). Did the soldier know what was 3600m downrange when he fired? You do not discharge a wpn outside of battle without knowing what the round is going to strike - it’s unsafe.

re. berets - you didn’t get the point - the point was that the Brits took the helmets off & started wearing berets - going for the softer look, and started patrolling on-foot. We’ve been doing this thing since…err…forever, and pretty much continuously in Northern Ireland for the last 30 years.

There are 2 people on this forum who’ve been out in the sandpit & know what’s going on. You could learn a lot from them

Let me clue you in. To spead a rumore that makes a flase claim is hatred.

Hmm, who else on here has been doing that? I can certainly remember some unsubstantiated allegations made by a certain forum member of abuse of non-white troops by British officers, and the use of those troops as cannon-fodder to save white blood (despite no evidence of this - the troops in question were even miffed that they didn’t even make contact with the enemy on some certain South Atlantic islands). It’d pretty much say that this represents a false claim and distinct hatred.

They went into a vehicle with the barrel pointing up at a 35 degree angle? Dude. You are so funny. Yea, 1-2 miles at least. A .22 travels 1+ miles at a 45 degree angle. :lol: I see how your estimation of the power of an assult rifle changes to suite you blather. Good Lord boy.

Yea, I thought so. So, you’ve changed your story now that the truth is out.

How is it aimed shots when they kill an unarmed Iraqi citizen walking down a road? It’s happened a lot. You’re read the reports, so why punk yourself out with such a lie when we all know you know the truth. Be smarter than that.

I just wanted you to explain your hypocricy in saying that British only make aimed shots at known targets even though you know they’ve killed numerous civilians in iraq with small arms fire, all the while contending that US troops are wreckless. Explain your hypocricy.

Really. Well, when your convoy is under attack and Iraqis in thier 1970’s compact cars won’t get out of your way so you can haul your ass, i guess you need some right then to make a bit of noise. Obviously, a car horn doesn’t mean much in a city like Bagdad. :lol:

My estimation on the power of an assault rifle hasn’t changed at all - I’ve said all along that they were effective out to 600m in section fire. You were the one who said that after 300-odd metres they dropped out of the sky. Now you’re saying that they can fly for two miles - if they have enough power to fly for two miles, why are they ineffective at 600m?
Boy? I think I have earned the right to be called a man, don’t you? Especially by someone who has not done anything to earn that right.

I’ve changed no story, we account for all of the rounds we have fired. If I fire one round, I account for one round. If I fire 30, I account for 30. If you hit someone with that round, then you would could reasonably expect to have to stand up in a court of law and explain why you fired that round. Therefore it would be a good idea to know where your rounds were going, rather than, say, firing on automatic out of the windows of a moving vehicle.

Even aimed shots can miss a target and hit someone else, or else the wrong person can be targetted.

No hypocrisy, a video was shown of US soldiers firing their rifles out of a moving vehicle. THAT IS RECKLESS BEHAVIOUR THAT WOULD NOT BE TOLERATED BY THE BRITISH ARMY.

Every casualty caused by the British Army is investigated properly and if any wrong doing is found, then the soldier finds himself in court defending his decision to fire.

Really. Well, when your convoy is under attack and Iraqis in thier 1970’s compact cars won’t get out of your way so you can haul your ass, i guess you need some right then to make a bit of noise. Obviously, a car horn doesn’t mean much in a city like Bagdad. :lol:[/quote]

Iraqis wouldn’t get out of the way in Basra either, I managed not to empty my rifle to get them to move, we generally just nudged their cars out of the way if they wouldn’t move and we had to get moving.

The simple fact is it is documented by the Unioted Nations and Amnesty International and Iraqi civilians that British forces hace carelessly killed numerous unarmed civilians with careless rounds. Now let us know when you have hopped around iraq interviewing people about it and have gathered as much info about it as they have. Are you saying that you’ve domne all that? Are you saying that you know more about those incidents than those many investigators? Than the UN investigators?

Are you making the mistake of thinking that anyone for a New York Second believes that you know more about those many incidents than the UN investigators who’s job it is to travel Iraq investigating them and other things while you are counting your bullets or passing out bottles of water to troops? You seem to be thinking that’s believable. Are you sayig that?

No sh*t Sherlock.

You mean bullets come down after being fired into the air? HOLY FREAKING SH*T!!!

What it means is you are trying to make it look like the soldier was wreckless, in comparison to British troops killing an 8 yr old girl at a wedding party. You are being silly again.

Good Lord. You actually are living in a bubble. You actually do believe that someone is going to believe that a freaking soldier in a particular group in a particular part of Iraq knows more about it than teams of investigators from the UN and Amnesty International. I don’t know what to say. :shock:

Hey, you weren’t among the British troops that killed unarmed civilians are you? You didn’t see the Iraqis raising hell at the British soldiers there over the death of 1,200 civilians did you?

So, you’re saying that the United Nations and Amnesty International reports are false? Answer that question please. writhing hands in anticipation

I suggest nothing. But I state plainly that you are spewing bullhockey because you expect someone to believe a soldier knows more about those events than the organizations that investigate them. Your job, as a british soldier, is to properly represent your nation, and by trying to spout such crap you are doing a poor job of it.

http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/Phys/mmedia/vectors/mr.html

"Relative to a flat terrain, let the initial horizontal speed be vh, and the initial vertical speed be vv. It will be shown that, the range is 2vhvv / g, and the maximum altitude is The maximum range, for a given total initial speed v, is obtained when vh = vv, i.e. the initial angle is 45 degrees.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trajectory

Please explain your hypocricy in stating that it’s carelss for a US soldier to shoot bullets into the dessert 1 1/2 miles away when British soldiers have killed numerous people with carelss fire in Iraq.

Please explain how that means the British are doing more to earn the trust of the Iraqis than the many things the US is doing, or how it means that the British are innocent of killing numerous unarmed civilians.

You should learn that nobody believes that a soldier knows more about those many incidents than the teams of professionally trained investigators who’s job it is to investigate such things.

Nope. I’ve made no unsubtanciated claims, but you will not draw me into that subject as you are trying to do. Failed again dudey. Your incitefullness is typical of every thread you post in Man of Stoat. But is simply does not fly my boy. It never has, it never will. BVTW, I believe that you work in a patent office. I do not believe you are a patent inspector. You have too many difficulties understanding a simple illustration with explanitory text to be an invespector. But you thought I’d think you were if you scanned your ID eh? :wink:

Your naivety and faith in the US Gov is very touching but the real world is a little different.

18 Bn has been allocated. But htat money is payed to US companies to do the work. So you as a tax payer pay money to the US Gov who pay it to Halliburton (Halliburton, once run by Vice-President Dick Cheney, is under renewed pressure over its work for the Pentagon in Iraq. BBC news.) to do the job.

“It’s a lot worse than I’d anticipated - I’m not particularly hopeful of getting work.”
Those were David Hucknall’s thoughts at the end of a meeting to tell British and other European firms how they could get a slice of the multi-billion dollar contract to repair the war damage in Iraq.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2932900.stm
The US carved up the contract and other countries hardly got a look in, feeding trough and gravy train come to mind.

But this money is not spent in country.

As pointed out above Cheney and crew took the lions share. Did they not report all the fuss over contract to rebuild Iraq in the US? Although it would seem to be a poisoned challis.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3633750.stm

You mean as opposed to the USAF bombing 3 or 4 weddings and killing many. Is this one-upmanship?

Please show evidence of 1200 civies kill by soldiers and not your ranting.

http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/Phys/mmedia/vectors/mr.html

"Relative to a flat terrain, let the initial horizontal speed be vh, and the initial vertical speed be vv. It will be shown that, the range is 2vhvv / g, and the maximum altitude is The maximum range, for a given total initial speed v, is obtained when vh = vv, i.e. the initial angle is 45 degrees.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trajectory
[/quote]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You’ve missed a vital sentence from the glenbrook site:

Imagine as well that the cannonballs do not encounter a significant amount of air resistance.

This assumption is fine for a hypothetical example to demonstrate some principles of ballistic flight, but utterly wrong for a high speed projectile like a bullet. Stoat had already pointed out that 45° was only the maximum range in a vacuum, which is equivalent to assuming no drag on the round due to aerodynamic forces.

If the assumptions on which a calcualtion is based are wrong, the calculation can only be right by fortuitous coincidence. One of the assumptions for the calculation of angle for max range is wrong and so the answer is almost certainly wrong.

I’m starting to think that you are not old enough to be in the military.

Hey, it’s not me. It’s the UN and Amnesty International that know all that and made those reports about British soldiers killing numerous civilians with careless fire. Please, inform us about how you were a part of their investigative teams.