The Bundeswehr had a similar problem last year in the Kosovo. Albanian nationalists went on a rampage to drive out the remaining Serb population by torching their buildings and general vandalism, but they were at the maximum armed with sticks and rocks. German Army could not stop them under the ROE. The German troops were neither trained nor equipped for riot control. They could hardly open up with their MGs and 20mm cannon of their Marder APCs at a mob armed with sticks and rocks, but they were not allowed to bring riot gas (prohibited for them as a chemical weapon under Geneva conventions) nor did they have police riot gear, like shields, batons and water cannon. It was highly embarrassing for the German military that they were forced to let the mob pass, but their only alternative would have been to open fire, causing a bloodbath.
Afterwards they complained to the German politicians that for future peace keeping jobs they will need police style riot control training and equipment.
As one result of this dilema, a special unit of the German Border Police force (BGS), which are very experienced in riot control, will in future be sent to hotspots of peace keeping missions, where police style riot control might be necessary. Also the military will get trained and equiped for it.
Good point Jan, the French have probably got the right idea in shipping out Gendarmerie (?) riot police with their peacekeepers and British troops have riot training because of N Ireland. However the US Army is constitutionaly forbidden from any domestic law-enforcement role and so training for it doesn’t cross their minds.
Same problem in Germany. Constitutionally the Bundeswehr can only act inside Germany on request by the respective state government in unarmed disaster relief. They can provide technical aid to the police though, e.g. infrared cameras on recce Tornados have been used in the past during searches for kidnapped or missing persons. They are strictly prohibited from any law enforcement role and never received the training.
There is no validity whatsoever to the claim that the higher number of fracticides commited by US forces is a symptom of being a US serviceman. The US military is the best trained and best equiped in the world. Fracticide is a symptom of modern war and not having enough technology in place to reduce or prevent the incidents. No nation is doing more or has ever done more to train it’s troops in the identification of friendly vrs foe, and no nation does more to employ technology to assist in that goal.
While fracticide is unfortunate, it is not currently wholly preventable. The fact that US forces in Iraq are commited to the overwhelming majority of the combat there, they are also responsible for commiting the majority of the fracticide there as well.
US military are trained to identify not only targets, but to identify friendly forces as well. The fact that fracticide occurs is not a symptom of being an American soldier. It is a symptom of modern warfare with high (but not high enough yet) technology weapons and systems.
I could provide you with hundreds of links to documents, many official documents of the US military, such as most of the few I am putting here, which discuss the problem of identification and what is being done about it, but if I did, the list would be very very long.
Nobody is doing more to prevent fracticide than the US military. It is not fair to either assume or claim that fracticide is somehow a symptom of being in the US military, as no other nation does as much to prevent it as the US.
USAF members are trained extensively in and study the science of target identification and preventing fracticide. For the USAF, it is a science:
Tech. Sgt. Eric M. Grill
Air Force Print News
“This type of analysis assesses the overall combat identification and interoperability capabilities of currently fielded systems; the tactics, techniques and procedures used to identify friendly and enemy forces; and the combat doctrine used in a joint tactical environment,” Russell said.
The difficulty of the evaluation is an equivalent to a graduate-level college course, said Perry, who is responsible for more than 4,500 square miles of airspace during the evaluation. It encompasses the southern part of the United States from Gulfport, Miss., to Panama City, Fla., and the Gulf of Mexico up to Memphis, Tenn.
“The evaluation brings everyone together in a no-bull, real-time combat scenario,” Perry said. “Its purpose is to have participants detect, identify and shoot enemy forces, but in the fog of war, it doesn’t necessarily happen in that order. It’s a very fast-moving exercise.”
For Lt. Col. Steve Baldock, an A-10 Thunderbolt II pilot who is the air component commander for the opposing forces during the evaluation, having an evaluation team like this is important.
“As a pilot, I want to make sure that I identify the correct target,” he said. “I’m glad that we have an organization that evaluates how each branch of service does combat identification.”
"The US military and its supporting industrial base is developing new systems aimed at enhancing the effectiveness of the current generation of ground combat vehicles. It also is investigating technologies that will be integrated into the next generation of tanks, infantry combat vehicles, scout cars and armoured personnel carriers."http://www.global-defence.com/1997/AdvancedTechnologies.html
“Again, the key to future success lies with target identification and BDA. The JFACC must contend with the unique challenge and special requirements of attacking an army from the air without the helpful, clarifying presence of friendly ground forces.” http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj01/win01/haun.html
My condolences to the people of Great Britain for the dastardly acts of cowardice perpetrated against them this morning. Americas prayers are with you.
The fact remains that during both Op Granby and during Telic1, eleven years later A10 pilots failed to recognise non US vehicles( British Warrior APC’s) with identification panels as friendly forces. It also fails to explain the attack on Canadian forces in Afganistan, who were training in a designated excersise range recently vacated by US forces.
Neither Pilot was recieving ground fire from thier target or had a radar lock alarm. In the case of the Canadians the pilot was refused permission to make a run on the target but did so anyway.
In the above incidents the pilots had the benifit of a fly-by’s without reciving incomming fire and had ample opportunity to verify their targets as enemy assets.
The fact remains that friendly fire is a symptom of war and the British have been doing it since the turn of the 20th century.
Wrong I’m afraid, the British Army is world renowned as THE best trained army.[/quote]
Renowed among the British, ofcourse. Is that why UK soldiers have gang-raped 600+ women and children in Africa? Was that a part of thier training? I suppose you could say that’s a form of friendly fire too, since it is extremely hurtful, damaging, wreckless, and cruel. I don’t think any of those women and kids had guns on them. I didn’t want to mention that, and I have prevented myself from doing so for a long time, but the sefl-richeousness smelling up the place made me do it.
I’m surprised no one has yet mentioned the use of amphetamines by US pilots to allow them to stay awake for long and or multiple missions, a practise that as far as I know is not carried out by the RAF or any other air force I know.
All the training in the world doesn’t help if you’re wacked out of your head on speed. Apparently the Germans used Methamphetamine during the war to allow tank crews to stay awake for long periods but stopped the practise after it was noticed that it enduced paranoia and led to the indiscriminate killing of civilians amongst others.
So the British military doesn’t use drugs? Only the US huh
No we dont, if a British serviceman was found with traces of amphetamine in his system he’d be subjected to disciplinary action and dismissed from service. The US forces are the only ones, as far as I know, that use this method.
edited to add: you didn’t mention your edit (again) and you still havn’t qualified your coffee buzz, rape statement!
edited:typo
The fact remains that friendly fire is a symptom of war and the British have been doing it since the turn of the 20th century.
Wrong I’m afraid, the British Army is world renowned as THE best trained army.[/quote]
Renowed among the British, ofcourse. Is that why UK soldiers have gang-raped 600+ women and children in Africa? Was that a part of thier training? I suppose you could say that’s a form of friendly fire too, since it is extremely hurtful, damaging, wreckless, and cruel. I don’t think any of those women and kids had guns on them. I didn’t want to mention that, and I have prevented myself from doing so for a long time, but the sefl-richeousness smelling up the place made me do it.[/quote]
Ironman,
I’d check the glass in your own greenhouse before throwing that particular stone, with the difference lying between as yet unproven claims and proven cases.
Oh the hypocricy! BUSTED BOY. YOU ARE BUSTED. Yes, British soldiers and military pilots DO use drugs dudey. Please, keep your self-reicheous, hypocritical chit outta here.
The United Kingdom Parlaiment
“Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South):To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to the Answer of 11th October, Official Report, column 65W, on Provigil, what the conclusions of the research were, with particular reference to using these pharmaceutical agents during times of hostilities; and if he will make a statement.”
Mental Health Foundation
“The MoD has admitted to buying more than 24,000 Provigil pills, which are licensed in Britain only to help people with rare sleeping disorders shrug off daytime sleepiness. Experts say the drug could be used “off licence” to keep pilots and special forces troops awake on little sleep.”
The figures, which were released to the Guardian under the open government code, show that purchases peaked with an order for more than 5,000 pills in 2001, the year allied forces entered Afghanistan. The next largest order - for more than 4,000 pills - was delivered in 2002, the year before troops entered Iraq. In total, the ministry has spent more than £43,000 on the drugs."
UK Nursing Web Sites Limited
“MOD BOUGHT THOUSANDS OF STAY AWAKE PILLS IN ADVANCE OF WAR IN IRAQ”
MOD Oracle
“According to figures from the Defence Medical Supplies Agency, which provides medical products “to sustain UK military capability”, the MoD has been buying the drug since 1998 at prices at least 10% lower than those charged to the NHS.”
Guardian Unlimited
"The MoD has admitted to buying more than 24,000 Provigil pills, which are licensed in Britain only to help people with rare sleeping disorders shrug off daytime sleepiness. Experts say the drug could be used “off licence” to keep pilots and special forces troops awake on little sleep.
Precisely how Provigil works is unknown, even to its developers. According to some reports, common side effects include nervousness, insomnia, excitation, irritability, tremors, dizziness and headaches. It may also cause “gastrointestinal disturbances”, including nausea and abdominal pain, and cardiovascular effects such as high blood pressure and palpitations."
"According to figures released by the Defence Medical Supplies Agency, which provides medical items "to sustain UK military capability", the MoD has bought more than 24,000 tablets of Provigil since 1998, at prices at least 10% lower than those charged to the NHS. Released under the open government code, the figures show that orders for the pills peaked in 2001, the year allied forces entered Afghanistan, with the next largest order being delivered in 2002, the year before troops invaded Iraq. Provigil is licensed in Britain for alleviating daytime tiredness in people suffering from the rare sleep disorder narcolepsy and a condition called obstructive sleep apnoea. Its introduction into the UK triggered concern from some groups who believe it will rapidly be abused, becoming a lifestyle drug for a 24/7 society.
While Britain’s largest research and development company, Qinetiq, for merly owned by the MoD, refuses to discuss work it may have done with Provigil, and has yet to publish any studies on the drug, US military researchers are more open.
“The MoD for one is absolutely paranoid about getting sued, pushing pills into people and giving them injections and then getting sued further down the line,” says Heyman. “What if you have a drug and then it reacts with something else you’ve been given? A soldier going into an operational theatre might have had half a dozen injections of different sorts.”
Yahoo! News UK
Demand peaked in 2001, the year British troops entered Afghanistan, when 5,000 pills were bought. Another 4,000 were purchased in 2002, the year before the Iraq invasion.
Documented and investigated dudey. Sorry. There are lots of little UK-African kiddies in several places in Africa having a hard time being accepted into their communities because they are the product of UK soldier gang-rape and rape. What kind of soldier rapes a child anyway? I’d shoot the f*ck on sight.
Documented and investigated dudey. Sorry. There are lots of little UK-African kiddies in several places in Africa having a hard time being accepted into their communities because they are the product of UK soldier gang-rape and rape. What kind of soldier rapes a child anyway? I’d shoot the f*ck on sight.
OH THE SELF-REICHEOUSNESS AND HYPOCRICY. :shock:[/quote]
As would I.
Go ahead and post your source.
I’m assuming you have a reference to proven cases, not claims.
And sonny, don’t call me dude.
I’m 43 years old. I’m old enough to call anyone dude, even someone older than me. Just check the Net. You’ll find what you are looking for. Amnesty International is a good start. African country web sites might also provide articles for you. Try the UN as well.
Remember, if it involved an infraction of anything UK, it’s only claim! But if it involves anything US, it’s a fact! Good Lord dudey. Your word games don’t change anything. What about the drugs supplied to the UK military pilots? What about the rapes? Like you’ve never heard the commentary going on in the UK about these things. Sheeesh. You can play dead like a doggie but you’re not getting a treat.
I must admit I wasn’t aware of provigil but we also take aspirin so what? Provigil is not amphetamine.
"…modafinil (‘Provigil’) is a memory-improving and mood-brightening psychostimulant. It enhances wakefulness and vigilance, but its pharmacological profile is notably different from the amphetamines, methylphenidate (Ritalin) or cocaine. Modafinil is less likely to cause jitteriness, anxiety, or excess locomotor activity - or lead to a hypersomnolent ‘rebound effect’ - than traditional stimulants. Subjectively, it feels smoother and cleaner than the amphetamines too. The normal elimination half-life of modafinil in humans is between 12 - 15 hours. So it’s worth fine-tuning one’s dosage schedule accordingly.
I stand by:
if a British serviceman was found with traces of amphetamine in his system he’d be subjected to disciplinary action and dismissed from service. The US forces are the only ones, as far as I know, that use this method.
To qualify it somewhat we do not use what is for the majority of the world an illegal narcotic (the word drug is not normally used for legal medication in english-english).
I was quite amused by this childish outburst, unusual for someone who claims to be just 4 years my senior:
BUSTED BOY. YOU ARE BUSTED
Documented and investigated dudey. Sorry. There are lots of little UK-African kiddies in several places in Africa having a hard time being accepted into their communities because they are the product of UK soldier gang-rape and rape. What kind of soldier rapes a child anyway? I’d shoot the f*ck on sight.
Please provide a link I have never heard of this, although if you replaced UK with US and Africa with Vietnam you may be onto something.
Aha now I know what you’re on about, the stories from Kenya, yes they are under investigation in the UK to establish if there is any truth in them BUT the British Army is well known as a get rich quick method amongst locals near to the training areas where claims for unrelated injuries are common and recently claims for supposed rapes also. I’m not saying that there has never been a rapist in the British army but that there is a concerted movement within units training in Kenya to suddenly start raping the women there? Give me a break.
Rose, a 26-year-old prostitute from the Indian Ocean resort of Malindi, says that the first she knew of the rally was when friends told her they had seen her two children among the marchers on the evening news. Far from being the offspring of a rape, she says, both were born after professional liaisons with Italian tourists. Rose’s mother, who lives near Nanyuki, the British army’s base in central Kenya, was accompanying them.
I happen to know a very nice Kenyan lady who is the wife of a good friend of mine I think I shall ask her opinion of this, maybe you should ask your Kenyan friends Eisentunte.
