Most effective German division

World War II German Military
#21

I posted elaborate replay about 7 days ago that got deleted.
If it was deleted on ground of breaking TOR I should have been warned about breaking the rules. Entire post got deleted but usual practice is only offensive sentence is marked and deleted and offender warned.

It concerned following:

Then if the Allied air crews (as distinct from just pilots as they were all engaged in a supposedly common criminal enterprise)

Well, planning and implementing a policy that explicitly involves deaths of thousands, not to mention millions, of civilians is war crime to any sane mind. The fact that Axis was doing the same is not excuse. If war crimes tribunal in Nuremberg charges war crimes in interest of justice it should have charged all perpetrators not only Axis members. And by this day International war crimes tribunal in Haag had NEVER pressed any charge on any big Allied nation on ANY grounds. And there certainly were opportunities after ww2 which literally involved deaths of millions.
So, justice is not served by International war crimes tribunal idea or it’s equivalent.

were guilty of war crimes for bombing civilians, so were the German and other Axis air crews who started the bombing of civilians.
So, in the interests of impartial justice, condemn the people who started the bombing of civilians, and who started the war, rather than just the people who finished the bombing of civilians

It is limited thinking to omit discussion just on war time. There were reasons why war started as war is just extension of foreign policy. It comes down to fact that there was nobody to stop USA and UK from forming their empires in pre 20th century but for some reason they thought they should stop Germany and Japan from forming theirs - more or less using same methods as previous lot.

Certainly, Axis committed war crimes - no doubt there. My point is that every time some Axis valor is displayed out of the bushes comes somebody and says - war crimes. This especially relates to Germanic SS divisions. And to be honest, Allies especially Russians were on par with them as war crimes are concerned. But nobody speaks of 20 millions gone is gulags, over 2 million killed in firestorms and nuclear attacks etc - this was not done by Hitler so it surely must not be a war crime.

As for discussion whether Rommel/Witman/Manstein/Ulrich Rudel are heroes or not answer is clear. Had they fought for USA they would be super heroes - this way let’s call them criminals for time being :confused:

#22

I suggest reading a book on Normandy. It was far from just the Hitler Jungends that held the British in check with a bloody form of armored trench warfare. IIRC, it was at least six divisions heavy on panzers that contained the British beachhead.

:confused::confused::confused::shock::shock::shock:
I recall 21st Panzer on left flank, 12th SS in center, Panzer Lehr on right and 301 or 501 heavy tank battalion that Witman was in. This units also engaged Canadians and were helped by nobody. Having in mind total air inferiority it is remarkable they held out as much as they have.

#23

War crimes are defined by international law and custom, which are influenced by what nations (as distinct from their sane citizens) want and think is acceptable in pursuit or defence of their national (i.e. predominantly the wealthy or influential) interests.

The problem is not with sane minds but with the lack of humanity in the laws of war drawn by sane minds trying to regulate the insanity of war within the confines of what nations will accept as limits upon their power to harm, kill, and lay waste in pursuit of their perceived national interests.

#24

Chances are it got eaten when the board was hacked at about that time, and was then restored from an older backup. A number of posts were lost at this time, and we have been having problems with spammers since then.

If it was a mod who deleted it, then they would have given you multiple very clear warnings, and there would be a record of this in the War Room. While there is indeed a long thread about you in there, at no point in that thread does it mention any imminent plans to give you a warning or ban you.

#25

I’m highly amused by Wittmans quote "At Prohorovka bulk of Russian tanks were destroyed by 3 Germanic SS divisions, 30 alone by Wittman on that occasion. GD and Das Reich are not far off either… "

Surely the 3 SS Divisions were the only ones at Prokhorvka so it wasn’t hard to inflict the bulk of the casualities. Why is Das Reich not far off ? it’s one of the 3 SS there.

I can’t see Lehr ( which is made up of instructors Wittman not trainees), it is massively equipped ( 4 Panzer Grenadier and 1 Engineer battalion in nearly 700 half tracks 237 tanks and assault guns). It performs as well as any but not outstandingly in Normandy and never recovers from the losses. Although FTG have a look at Zetterling it was delayed by the bombing it did not suffer massive losses and the delays were more due to fuel shortages.

“Often the journey to Normandy by Pz.-Lehr has been described as a costly and prolonged affair due to intervention of allied air power. Often it is said that the Pz.-Lehr lost five tanks, 84 SPW and towing vehicles and 90 wheeled vehicles. But according to Ritgen, who at the time was commander of the repair and maintenance company of the Pz IV battalion, this initial report was exaggerated.10 The fact that the division lost 82 SPW and 10 towing vehicles during the entire month of June supports this judgement”

Zetterling is my source for above.

As for the vote I don’t know as all the options were well equipped so should perform better how do you judge Lehr equipped as above as against the 31st SS which goes into action with only about 75% of it’s troops armed!!

#26

Surely the 3 SS Divisions were the only ones at Prokhorvka so it wasn’t hard to inflict the bulk of the casualities. Why is Das Reich not far off ? it’s one of the 3 SS there.

lapsus calami

I can’t see Lehr ( which is made up of instructors Wittman not trainees)

I know that. Lehr as learn…

While there is indeed a long thread about you in there

really ? I never imagined having long thread about me :lol::lol::lol:

  • and think is acceptable in pursuit or defence of their national (i.e. predominantly the wealthy or influential) -
  • within the confines of what nations will accept as limits upon their power to harm, kill, and lay waste in pursuit of their perceived national interests.
  1. As ww2 showed, major nations have large threshold of acceptance on their power to harm, kill, and lay waste in pursuit of their perceived national interests.
  2. Do not try to dilute the issue, fact is that Allies trialled Axis for much of same things they themselves have done.
    The problem is laws or certain conventions were not signed by all, and war crimes tribunal in Nuremberg - as unified attempt to impose justice made mockery of justice as it took into account only losers.
#27

Nope…Lehr as teach.

#28

Examples?

#29

The 12th SS got a snotting from the 43rd Wessex Division :smiley:

#30

Actually, there are two about you. I would merge them but the board software doesn’t let me.
And DON’T take it as a compliment. The majority of those with threads about them in the War Room are the forum problem children, who are behaving in such a way that we suspect a ban will be necessary for the good of the forum. Some do stay on (Herman being perhaps the most obvious example) but the majority get the boot after we’ve given them enough time to prove that they’re the Neo-Nazi trolls that we suspected them to be from the beginning.

#31

And although Witman was a “panzer ace,” he himself fell victim to the same sort of ambush he was so infamous for. Up to five Tigers died that day to the murderous crossfire of both 17-pounders and 75mm guns, along with Witman, without the loss of a single British Sherman.

#32

What I find interesting is how everyone bangs on all the time about how terrifying and awesome the Tiger was. Granted great tank technically and did perform well on occasion but it was fairly slow, very heavy and a nightmare to run logistically. As the saying goes, ‘amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics’.

For any of the SS fanbois that seem attracted to this site like squaddies to German brothel, try looking up a effective division on the winning side like the 43rd Wessex. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43rd_(Wessex)_Infantry_Division

That’s only a small article on wiki, but there are several good books on the Division.

#33

Well, I’m an assumed fanboy of the Afrika Korps, because they did very good with the resources. I just don’t like of the Waffen-SS divisions because of their war crimes… So I vote on Afrika Korps (21st Panzer Division)

#34

Hmm…perhaps I should have gone for the Afrika Korps, but I wasn’t ‘broad minded’ enough to go for the ‘none of the above option’, so I’ve gone for SS Wiking. Always there or thereabouts when the tough fighting was going on, right into the streets of Berlin, and a pretty clean record on war crimes IIRC, so should be a non-controvertial choice :wink:

#35

Afrika Korps certainly a less controversial choice and a decent fighting formation as well, they gave my regiment a bloody nose at El Alamein!

#36

My vote is Waffen SS Wiking,the Wiking have the toughest and disciplined units.
Anyway I think the Wehrmacht do the bigger part of the war

#37

First tks. to rising sun for explaining quoting mechanism. :):):slight_smile:
Second, I got PM about infraction for “making shit up” !!!
Hardly a professional way of communication from official moderator of a forum.

On with this thread…

  1. executing POW, many cases especially Normandy. Long thread about it on this forum - you must have seen it. I think Meier or Peiper had reduced sentence on this account when he defended that Canadians killed captured SS soldiers.
  2. Crimes against humanity. If it is not a crime against humanity to incinerate 50 cities in Japan and Germany I don’t know what is
  3. I could go into detail but it doesn’t make much sense

Well 12th SS got a a snotting from entire British Army + few thousand bombers and Typhoones cripiling it’s logistics. Fact is they hold out for a month where Montgomery expected them to capitualte first day of invasion.

Well, any hard evidence of me making stuff up so far ?

Well that WAS question of time when it would happen.

Well I think you Wessex would have run to mama at first snowfall let alone Cossack attack…:slight_smile:

And connection with Blitzkrieg as some do not seem to understand:

  1. Germans were first to utilize this strategy, Russian failed to understand it even after France. It was not Hitler who devised it bur rather able commanders like Guderian, Rommel and Kleist. They may not have called it Blitz at first but they knew what they were doing.
  2. In attack on France Blitzkrieg was utilized in a way that panzer and armoured infantry divisions were placed in south while ordinary infantry in the north with clear intention that armoured thrust WOULD CUT THROUGH France and encircle Allied Armies in north. I say this because there was obvious CLEAR INTENT OF ENCIRCLEMENT
  3. Southern thrust was given lavish Luftwaffe support to smash any opposition
  4. So all component were here: motorized speed, encirclement, and massive aircraft support all at the same time. No broad front fighting trench warfare, but quick penetration and many small encirclements afterwards.
  5. a) Hitler knew time was critical and insisted on attack as soon as possible through Belgium as was before. He even gave highest priority to production of artillery ammunition
    b) Once acquainted with Manstein’s plan he realized it’s potential and decided that should be official plan. Period.

Totnekopf, LAAH and GrossDeutchland (not as divisions though I can’t remember exact names) participated in southern thrust speeding through France to cut Allies off AS WAS INTENDED. Alongside Rommel Totenkopf came under attack from British and wavered until Rommel devised 88mm anti tank role.

Once AH topic is unlocked, questions posed there will be gladly answered.

cheers

#38

The Russians not failed to understand but denied to aply. Just like the allies later. The Blitzkrieg was rather risky tacktic and “phony” as strategy. Blitzkrieg has fully failed in Russia in winter 1941.When you have no mechanized superiority or the some circumstances like the weather bother you to use mechanized troops, Blitzkrieg turned to be a very effective way to waste your toops.

#39

The Best German division was definitelly “Das Reich”. I don’t know about it’s wars wins but doe to political correctness the unit that wear such a loud name is obligated to be the BEST:)

#40

Quote from Wittman111: “Second, I got PM about infraction for “making shit up” !!!
Hardly a professional way of communication from official moderator of a forum”

Wittman, you are treading upon very thin ice. The staff is responsible for maintaining the quality of the boards, not you. You justly received an infraction for the reasons specified, they are not given lightly. If you got it, you certainly deserved it. You know very well what you are up to here, we also know. I recommend that you heed Nick’s advice, you’ve already been given a final warning, so drop the backsass, and the trolling, or prepare to ease on down the road.