Then if the Allied air crews (as distinct from just pilots as they were all engaged in a supposedly common criminal enterprise) were guilty of war crimes for bombing civilians, so were the German and other Axis air crews who started the bombing of civilians.
With all respect to you but The Germans were accused of all war crimes . The Allies got away with there bombings of innocent civilians and many more war crimes. No doubt, Axis and Allies did commit innocent deaths on civilian etc…
IMHO, All German divisions knew how to fight, there were no such thing as a crap German division during WWII.
In some chat groups and forums you cant’ tell just anything.
If you criticize the Allies, you get all the blame
And if your grandparents actually lived under German occupation, don’t try to praise them, because they are lucky lazy bastards for whom anglo-saxon Allies did it all and you will be just an arrogant “old” European, that owes them for centuries to come. :neutral:
The truth is, the US and the UK NEVER went through occupation and THEY should have been grateful that european citizens withstood the tiranny and organised resistance and effectively disrupted logistics, hurting the war machine at the east long before the “second front”.
IMHO, All German divisions knew how to fight, there were no such thing as a crap German division during WWII.
Don’t forget Volkssturm en Hitler Youth … unless you don’t count them in as “real” divisions.
Right. I’d advice the German 70. Infanterie-Division. It was formed in July 1944 on the Dutch island Walcheren and surrendered to the Canadians three months later.
The division consisted of app. 20,000 men - all suffering from miscellaneous ailments of the gastric region. The unit’s battalions were called “white bread battalions” due to their members collective diet.
In this context I also remember the Luftwaffe’s S-Flakbatterie 1000 (0) - an AA battery of soldiers suffering from “psychogenic disorders”.
My point was that if the allied bombing campaigns in Germany were war crimes then, logically, so were the German bombing campaigns in the UK.
There tends in some quarters to be a focus on the terrible effects of the Allied bombing in Germany as if those terrible effects constitute a war crime, in the same way that the awful effects of the nuclear bombings in Japan are emotively determined to be war crimes, but the effects are irrelevant in determining whether the Allied or German bombing campaigns were war crimes. The question is simple: Was it a war crime to bomb cities and other civilian targets in the enemy’s country or legitimate territory? If the answer is ‘yes’, then all Axis and Allied powers were guilty of that war crime. If the answer is ‘no’, then they weren’t.
No doubt.
So what?
That’s the nature of war.
Then the Germans must have been unique, because no other nation was blessed with an army full of divisions which knew how to fight and weren’t crap, even if only because at any given time other armies had training divisions; divisions working up to battle readiness; divisions recovering from battle losses; and even divisions (not to mention Patton’s First US Army Group) which existed largely on paper.
that is another ball game, but fact remains RA bled Wehrmacht dry, not some Wessex who by the way is mediocre - by the look of things from Wiki
you again. we are doing just fine without you closing people topics - thank you very much, but out will you
Anyway,
Is it quotation or not ?
and why is it meaningless ?
not quite, casualty ration was 1:1 or 100.000 casualty on each side
Germans WERE OUT OF FUEL
Germans DID NOT HAVE air support
taking that into account I would say German performance was good
Thank you, I am just being realistic. Although I am not German but I have some German ancestry
There you will find enough facts, dates and figures that prove that by 1943 Germanic SS divisions were force one can really count on.
anyway why don’t you start a thread titled “who likes Churchill and thinks Crommwell tanks are great ?” But no you have to come and smolder here…
Most anti-SS feelings are caused by the inherent nazi belief and mentality and brutal ways of warfare / treatment of POW / civilians, Jews …
Here it goes. How about trial for Enola Gay who liquidated what … 200.000 civilians in just one flight !!!
one SS division can only dream of such numbers
really, are you stupid and therefore unable to compare facts or is it just me ?
Note two things:
Liquidation of Jewish (or other) women, children and elderly really is gruesome and cowardly crime, but aside Totenkopf Germanic SS divisions were not grossly involved in such activities
People like Witman are no criminals, they fought cleanly for their fatherland. Period
This is no topic on war crimes so stop trolling please
Do you really have no other argument than war crimes. Let me ask you how many civilians have Allies killed ? And who was hold responsible ? That is without the Russians …
not true, but that is another matter
AND NOBODY DISPUTES THAT
Do explain why is it war crime to let person die in concentration camp out of hunger and not if person is incinerated to ashes in fire storm ?
Now you’re kicking on the one not kicking … good job. I didn’t talk about trials … I stated anti-SS feelings don’t come from uniforms
Seems some were right in fearing civil war between Wehrmacht and SS if nazi superstructure would be destroyed :shock: :lol:
I guess if the SS were really “dreaming” of such numbers, the feelings towards SS divisions are completely correct.
Do explain why is it war crime to let person die in concentration camp out of hunger and not if person is incinerated to ashes in fire storm ?
You don’t understand. OR everyone was guilty, OR no one. Valid argument, no?
And weren’t the all Luftvaffe divisions that crap?I heard that idea of Goering to creat the own infantry from the retared Luftwaffe personell suffer of military incompetence.
Well lads, the games up. According to Witman111 i’m a troll. Admittedley I am 6ft 2 and built like a brick outhouse so perhaps he’s right. I could cut and paste his reply and answer his specfic points to me but quite frankly I have life and can’t be asked to argue with him, I have to go soldiering! He and I will probably go round and round arguing with no end in sight so I’ll make a closing statement and probably not comment again on this particular thread.
The German army was a pretty good fighting force, the Heer were on the whole well equipped and for the most part a motivated force and the vast majority of them were decent ordinary men. However, they weren’t the supermen a lot of people think they were, otherwise the war would have had a different outcome. The SS on the other hand were scum. All of them, even the waffen SS that a lot of you seem to have a hard on for. They held fairly repugnant political and racial views and to be frank I’m glad my division gave the 12th SS and bloody good snotting in France.
Right, that’s me done. Fanbois have at it, dissect my comments call me names whatever makes you happy, either way I don’t particularly care.
Quote from Witman111 : “1) not quite, casualty ration was 1:1 or 100.000 casualty on each side
2) Germans WERE OUT OF FUEL
3) Germans DID NOT HAVE air support
taking that into account I would say German performance was good”
I would agree that the German forces did a right fine job of losing. I can’t remember any other Country’s Military being so efficient, or meticulous at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Now Witman, I’ll put my mod hat on for a moment, you are being a bit rude to some of the other members, and its never a good idea to sass a moderator. Quote from Witmann111 to Nickdfresh:
“you again. we are doing just fine without you closing people topics - thank you very much, but out will you
Anyway,”
Quote by Witman111 to Iron Yoeman : “yet another fanboi provocation - why don’t you crawls into your mice hole and read something like: http://www.amazon.com/SS-Steel-Storm.../dp/076030937X
or http://www.amazon.com/Steel-Rain-Waf...4623830&sr=1-1
before posting your usual crap around.
So I highly recommend SS steel storm and SS steel rain by Tim Ripley before posting usual crapers.”
Quote from Witman111 to Iron Yoeman : “Here it goes. How about trial for Enola Gay who liquidated what … 200.000 civilians in just one flight !!!
one SS division can only dream of such numbers
really, are you stupid and therefore unable to compare facts or is it just me ?”
Witman111 you have been warned against such behavior far more than once, You continue to run your mouth like a fanboi/troll/ loudmouth. (pick any two ) And at the last, you were warned that it was your last chance. And here you are yet again playing your silly games. You leave me no choice but to take action subsequent to your refusal to abide by the directions of other moderators.Witmann, you are given penance of a 90 day ban effective now.
Reading up on the Luftwaffe Field Divisions they were pretty bad. Many had limited equipment and training when formed and were commanded by Officers with no field experience and in some cases no training.
Most Wehrmacht Divisions when formed were formed around a Cadre of experienced trained personnel, these were used to help train the new members. The Luftwaffe Field Divisions never had this and were eventually handed over to the Heer and reconstituted as proper Wehrmacht units.
wow hings are getting complicated
To make things clear (and I concur):
eelimination/concentration camps are subject of “crimes against humanity”
bombing of innocent civilians are subject of “war crimes”
On the other hand, it’s easy to mix both up, since they are crimes.
A list of crap Divisions would be a more interesting debate, I give you 21st SS Skanderbeg, from Wiki.
The Division was placed under the command of SS-Standartenführer August Schmidthuber, later promoted to SS-Oberführer. It fought against the Communist partisan forces of Enver Hoxha who were on the increase and consolidating their actions, both in Albania and Yugoslavia as the Second World War was drawing to an end. The Division was very poorly led with a serious dearth of instructors, Albanian officers or NCOs.
The Division was operational for only a few months (February 1944 – November 1944), with a strength of about 6,000 - 6,500 rather than the normal strength of a division (10,000-20,000). Many recruits deserted with their new weapons and boots, and by October 1944 their number had dwindled to around 3500. It appears they often refused to fight or to take orders, and it never became a significant force.
"The Germans were forced to disarm battalions at Pec and Prizren, arresting the Albanian officers and sending them to the camp at Prishtina
The number of troops in a German division could be hugely variable.
I was trying to find my source for this recently in relation to a different issue but, alas, I can’t.
My recollection is that some German ‘divisions’ could be as small as a couple or few battalions in some garrison ‘divisions’ and that other ‘divisions’ in various parts of the Heer weren’t anywhere near the size of a normal division.
Others’ topics? You mean the ones’ you thread-jack with OFF-topic apologia spam?
not quite, casualty ration was 1:1 or 100.000 casualty on each side
The U.S. est. were about 89-90,000 casualties. German est’s a a bit more sketchy due to their decaying situation. But they probably suffered closer to 100,000 casualties that they could far more ill-afford than the Americans could. But the Bulge was not merely a German offensive, it was also a sustained, lengthy Allied counteroffensive that was conducted in a grueling and unimaginative manner due to the political considerations and embarrassment over losing liberated territory…
Germans WERE OUT OF FUEL
Which means they were being crushed on a strategic level, and the offensive was folly…
Germans DID NOT HAVE air support
COMPLETELY FALSE! The Luftwaffe was actually quite active in the battle and extensively bombed Bastogne and actually launched one of the most ambitious tactical air campaigns to destroy Allied fighters on the ground, I think each side lost something of 500 fighters give or take. Again, something the Allies could afford, the Luftwaffe couldn’t.
taking that into account I would say German performance was good
They didn’t reach any of their major objectives in the given time tables, even when they had fuel and the cover of bad weather. They also suffered rather heavy losses of vehicles even in the opening stages where the GI’s were bugging out…
I stated anti-SS feelings don’t come from uniforms