Mustang, vs. Corsair, vs. Hellcat - Which is best?

Thank you Leonard, that´s impressive!

And if you have any more of this kind:

And the noted F4U’s 70% of fighter bomb tonnage? That is 70% of USN/USMC fighter delivered bomb tonnage, not ALL fighter delivered tonnage

please share with us, it´s extremely annoying that many books on aircraft throw numbers around without specifying where and when. Some sources on the P-47 fx. will claim a total number of sorties in WWII, that is the number of ETO sorties with US forces only, without stating that and suddenly you have 3 different numbers, all correct in their own context, but no of the sources bothered to mention the context and then it´s pretty useless.

The reason why I thought the P-47 tonnage was high was because I compared to the B-25 (84980t with the US in the ETO), and all it did was bomb, but it had only “only” 63177 missions in which to drop them.

If we say the P-47 carried 454kg on an average attack mission (sometimes it would have more, sometimes it would have rockets, counting for 0t), it needs about 290000 attack sorties to to reach the 132482figure, more than half of all sorties. This is probably not unreasonable. It does say something about the P-47 (and enemy fighter opposition): being one of the very best high altitude fighters it was still chosen to do so much ground attack work.

Does anybody have some range with load statistics for the P-47N?
(if nothing else, then for my little thought experiment of replacing the B-17´s in the ETO with 47N´s and P-38 pathfinders, had the war lasted a little longer :wink: )

back again, sorry to bother, but what are these shortenings for (PAC and Aleutians?)?

POA: 2,274
FEAF: 41,141

China-Burma-India Theater, including the AVG:
P-43 = 3

Or, just against the Japanese?
P-43 = 6

Do you have more info on these?
(107 P-43´s were delivered to the Chinese in 1942, 152 to RAAF as photo-rec. aircraft, and none are supposed to have served in combat with the US)
Is it 3 AVG, + 3 by US citizens flying for RAAF or…?

Thanks for the information Rich Leonard - looks like I stand corrected if you go only by total “air-to-air” victories claimed. Also see that you have included F-6 (post war P-51) - hope the figures for the P-51 do not include Korean War kills.

I see that you cite official USN and USAAF statistics and Frank Olynyk or Ray Wagner. Just curious though on your exact sources for these numbers? It would be interesting to see total “air-to-air” kills included from other nations that also flew these aircraft. Also total kills - including those destroyed on the ground.

The figure of 3,752 air-to-air kills that I quoted in the P-47 thread seems close to your numbers (3,662) shown above and would still place the P-47 in fourth place overall in “air-to-air” kills if your totals are correct.

The other figure that I quoted for the P-47 - 11,878 enemy planes destroyed - did include planes destroyed on the ground.

Do you have figures by fighter for total numbers of planes destroyed - including those destroyed on the ground?

Colonel Francis S. ‘Gabby’ Gabreski - top scoring WWII USAAF ace in Europe (P-47 Thunderbolt)
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=89490&postcount=12
Gabreski was credited with a record 31 kills in WWII - twenty-eight enemy aircraft destroyed in aerial combat, plus three on the ground.


http://www.18thfwa.org/whosWho/FrancisGabreski/FrancisGabreski_files/image006.jpg

. . . Also see that you have included F-6 (post war P-51) - hope the figures for the P-51 do not include Korean War kills.-

F-6 was not the Korean War designation for the P-51, that was F-51. The F-6 was the photo recon version of the P-51 which first entered service in 1943. No, my totals do NOT include Korean War numbers.

. I see that you cite official USN and USAAF statistics and Frank Olynyk or Ray Wagner. Just curious though on your exact sources for these numbers? It would be interesting to see total “air-to-air” kills included from other nations that also flew these aircraft. Also total kills - including those destroyed on the ground.-

See my next post regarding sources. I don’t particularly have any figures on strafing results, mostly because I find them only of passing interest. The USAAF Statistical Digest has some generic totals by types (heavy bombers - medium & light bombers - fighters) by theaters. See tables 167 thru 172.

.Do you have figures by fighter for total numbers of planes destroyed - including those destroyed on the ground?-

See above, frankly, more research time than I’m willing to devote to a subject in which I’ve little interest. Especially since most of my interest lies in the Pacific Theater and is mostly restricted to USN/USMC aviation.

All sources fairly easy to get with some diligent web searching, but some require a little extra digging to make things like unit/aircraft type match up and some that is not so readily available, but, rather, the result of several years of research and balancing and cross referencing numerous spread sheets.

A lot of good, but somewhat generic, data on the USAAF is available in the USAAF Statistical Digest, found in various places on the web. The Naval Historical Center offers a download the US Naval Aviation Combat Statistics WW2 document.

The USAAF Stat Digest can be readily found in spreadsheet ready form, just a cut and past job for the pages you might want. The USN Aviation Combat Stats document is a PDF scan and it does have minor, but annoying, calculation errors found in the original. I moved all its tables to spread sheets and re formulated all the calculation fields. Having this stuff in spread sheets makes it easy to move around and make calculations/analysis not found in the originals but using the original data.

Also web available, from the USAF, though I can’t recall where (once I have it I don’t worry about where it came from) is a list of all USAAF credits, by pilot, with date of credit and the pilot’s unit. You can take that info and run it against the unit histories and pretty much determine for about 90% of cases the aircraft involved. Of course, it is a case of “rats, rats, rats” when you’ve laboriously done that long ago and then get your hands on the magnificent work done by Frank Olynyk and find he’s done it for you, but “goody, goody, goody” where in the process he cleared up any ambiguities in your own work. For example, a problem I found with the USAF list I was using long years ago was that it is pretty sparse on early action at Pearl Harbor and in the Philippines. Frank’s work solves that problem.

I tend to stick to official publications, and steer away from any aficionado or enthusiast websites for my information. You might be surprised what’s out there . . . official USAAF unit histories, various statistical analyses and so on which some careful searches might uncover. For example, and this is odd because my field of interest is pretty much narrowed on US naval aviation in WW2, I haves some 90 official USAAF reports and/or unit histories. For US naval aviation in WW2, I’ve probably well over 600 related official reports, histories, manuals, and documents, plus about another 500 official documents of just general naval interest or covering naval aviation of other periods. All plucked from the internet. In all, the library consists of some 500 plus books on military subjects, including well over 300 on naval aviation subjects, and another 75 or so covering the USN, generally, USN interwar, USN WW2 and generally WW2 in the Pacific. The files have some 1450 document, reports, manuals, publications, studies, articles, and what have you, well over two thirds from official sources; and about 350 other periodicals mostly public, but many, albeit, somewhat restricted in their availability general public due to certain membership requirements, such as, for examples “American Fighter Aces Association Bulletin” or “Foundation - Journal of the National Museum of Naval Aviation” or “The Hook - Journal of Carrier Aviation” or “Wings of Gold - Journal of the Association of Naval Aviation”.

As far as credits for shooting up airplanes on the ground are concerned, why don’t we count trucks or, better yet, dog carts and wheelbarrows, too. Victory credits only count if they’re against somebody in the air. My personal opinion is that anyone who wants to count planes shot up on the ground and trying to equate that to victories is simply disingenuously trying to inflate the numbers.

If I may quote USAF Credits for the Destruction of Enemy Aircraft, WWII by Wesley P. Newton, Jr., Calvin F. Senning, et al, published by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1978 (and some 685 pages in length): “Furthermore, for the Army Air Forces to record a claim for the destruction of an enemy aircraft as a credit, the flyer had to be a member of the Army Air Forces or an allied flyer assigned or attached to an Army Air Forces unit engaged in air-to-air combat during the period 7 December 1941 to 14 August 1945.” (Page 7)

Note “air-to-air combat”; nothing about planes on the ground.

Further, the document goes on to say, “An aircraft was deemed as destroyed if it were a heavier-than-air craft, manned and which one might expect to be armed, that, as a result of air-to-air action, crashed into the ground or water, disintegrated in the air, or was abandoned by its pilot. Credit was also given for intentional ramming of an enemy aircraft or for maneuvering in such a way as to cause the enemy plane to crash.” (Page 8)

Pretty much eliminates the concept of “credit” for hosing down parked airplanes, especially for the USAAF. I don’t ever recall having seen anything similar in print for the USN, but I’m not aware of any attempt to call planes shot up on the ground by USN pilots “victories” or “credits.” That’s not to say there’s no information on planes destroyed on the ground by USN pilots, there most certainly is, but that information is strictly noted as such and not as credits.

Of course, there’s the usual warnings about P-61 night fighter crew members in some theaters each receiving one victory credit for each shoot down. Pretty easy to spot most of them where you see privates and corporals with victory credits.

Beware of the afficiando/enthusiast website, except where they offer copies of original documents, unless you are absolutely sure of the quality of the research and it is not just some breathless, gee whiz, recounting and quoting from someone else’s site.

Beware of Martin Caiden types and, worse, those who would present his work as sources for their research. You only have to once read of P-38s with dead men at their controls appearing magically back over their bases hours after they should have run out of fuel with the words “it’s true” to realize there may be a problem with everything in the book (see Fork-Tailed Devils).

Also, here’s a freebee, the “USAF Credits for the Destruction of Enemy Aircraft, WWII” document can be found at http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/numbered_studies/1039707.pdf , however, be warned, it is 27.2 Mb. This document is not to be confused with the list mentioned in my paragraph 4 above. That was a list that I just cut and pasted into a spreadsheet. There are quite a few interesting documents available in the ‘numbered studies’ series. Check out
http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/numbered_studies/studiesintro.asp

Re: P-43’s

6 ? ? ? my bad, that’s a typo. Three (3) is the correct number.

17 Aug 42 – 1LT Burrall Barrum and 2LT Philip O’Connell, 75th FS USAAF, both flying P-43’s, share a credit for shooting down a twin engine type identified as a “type 45”.
3 Sep 42 – 2LT Martin Cluck, 75th FS USAAF, in a P-43, awarded a credit for shooting down a “Type 97” fighter.
2 Jan 43 – Capt Jeffery Wellborn, 76th FS USAAF, in a P-43, awarded a credit for shooting down a “I-45”

Ranking corrected in my earlier post . . . thanks for the good eyes!

Abbreviations are theaters

ETO - European Theater of Operations
MTO - Mediterranean Theater of Operations
POA - Pacific Operations Area (also denoted in some USAAF sources as CentPac or Central Pacific Theater)
FEAF - Far East Air Force (also denoted in some USAAF sources as SWPac or Southwest Pacific Theater
CBI - China-Burma-India Theater
Alaska - Alaska-Aleutians-North Pacific Theater

Rich

Rich,

Thanks for the information and tips. I can see that you have done some serious and thorough research. I stand corrected on the F-6 and F-51 mix up.

I did some checking on the kills credited to American aces, and it appears that you are correct. It seems that they were awarded for “air-to-air” kills. Although the ETO’s top American ace Francis “Gabby” Gabreski was officially credited by the USAAF with 28 aircraft destroyed in air combat and 3 on the ground, (flying 166 combat sorties), his stats only show his “air-to-air” kills - see chart below.

Although, I would not discount the importance of planes destroyed on the ground. As many planes that were destroyed on the ground were that many less that did not live to fight another day. Looking at gun cam footage of strafing runs on parked planes, it appears fairly difficult while flying at high speed with the added hazard of ground fire directed at your plane. It seems that many planes were missed or only lightly damaged.

P-51 Mustangs seem to have done their share of destruction on enemy aircraft on the ground also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-51_Mustang#U.S._operational_service

The Eighth, Ninth and Fifteenth Air Forces’ P-51 groups, all but three of which flew another type before converting to the Mustang, claimed some 4,950 aircraft shot down (about half of all USAAF claims in the European theater) and 4,131 destroyed on the ground.

That is a total of 9,081 total planes destroyed by P-51’s of the Eighth, Ninth and Fifteenth Air Forces.

http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_eto_aces.html

Several World War II fighter aces who remained on active duty became general officers, but only a few reached four-star rank. One of them was John C. Meyer, fourth-ranking US ace in Europe, with 24 confirmed air-to-air victories, including one German jet. Of the top 15 Eighth Air Force aces, Meyer also was the leader in aircraft destroyed on the ground, the most hazardous of fighter operations.

Note: his first 3 victories were while flying P-47, the rest were with the P-51.

Aces of the Eighth Air Force in World War Two
European Theater, ETO, the U.S. Eighth Air Force
http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_eto_aces.html

Note: Although P-47 aces made up 7 of the top 10 in the ETO, P-51 aces were tied with the P-47 in the top 20 with 10 apiece. In the top 57, P-51 aces were ahead of P-47 aces 28 to 20.

American Aces of WWII
http://www.acepilots.com/index.html#top
http://www.acepilots.com/index_old.html

Aces of the Eighth Air Force in World War Two
European Theater, ETO, the U.S. Eighth Air Force
http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_eto_aces.html

USAAF MTO Aces of WW2
Mediterranean theatre
http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_mto_aces.html

PTO/CBI Pilots of WWII
Top American aces of the Pacific & CBI:
5th, 13th and 14th Air Force fighter pilots
http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_pto_aces.html

U.S. Navy Fighter Pilot Aces of World War Two
http://www.acepilots.com/usn_aces.html

Marine Corps Aces of WWII
http://www.acepilots.com/usmc_aces.html

All the Best,

George

George –

And don’t get me wrong, I’ve nothing against the P-47. My uncle (USMA 42) was a P-47 driver, a 24-year-old Lieut Colonel in command of the 405th FS (371st FG) when he was shot down and killed on 5 January 1945 near Hertlingshausen.

Regards,

Rich

I am sorry to hear that Rich. Was he shot down by ground fire or enemy fighters?

That reminds me of another USAAF P-47 ace - Lt. Col. Neel Kearby - C.O. 348th Fighter Group - Pacific Theater of Operations. He was the 5th highest scoring USAAF ace in the PTO (and the highest scoring USAAF P-47 ace in the PTO). He was also a Medal of Honor recipient.

Lt. Col. Neel Kearby - C.O. 348th Fighter Group
Giant in a Jug
http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_kearby.html

Neel E. Kearby
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neel_E._Kearby

Kearby was born in Wichita Falls, Texas and graduated from the University of Texas in 1936. He received flight training at Randolph and Kelly Air Force bases.

Colonel Kearby, commanding officer of the 348th Fighter Group, was the only U.S. fighter pilot to be awarded the Medal of Honor for actions while flying the P-47.

By March 1944, Kearby had 22 kills to his credit. On March 5, 1944, Kearby and two other pilots attacked a formation of 15 Japanese aircraft near Wewak. After shooting down one of the aircraft, Kearby himself was shot down. The P-47 crashed into the jungle below, killing Kearby.

It was an air-to-air action. From a letter to my Grandfather from my uncle’s wingman, post-war:

“On our mission that day, January 5th we were on a fighter sweep carrying no bombs. We were led by your son John Leonard and intercepted approximately forty German fighter planes (F.W. 190’s and M.E. 109’s). They were at about 20,000 feet and off to our right. We were at 16,000. The formation of German planes was called out and your son John told us ‘get ready’ and turned into the enemy head on, which was the American method in such case. Immediately we were mixing with them. At that time I was hit badly and spun down to 1,000 feet before recovering. Then when I proceeded home alone I could hear over the phone, the voices of the men in my squadron. About one minute later I heard a voice call out ‘I’ve gotten two of them’ and then ‘I’m hit and going home’. This voice, Colonel, was that of your son as he and I were the only two who were shot down on the mission. I bailed out then before hearing our squadron commander mention that he would have to jump.”

According to an affidavit from a witness on the ground, a resident of the village of Hertlingshausen s.w. of Worms: “On the 5th of January, 1945 at about 3:30 p.m. an American Thunderbolt plane in distress, fell into a field near this town and exploded. The pilot bailed out, but the parachute failed to open and he was instantly killed - he had been wounded.”

My dad, beyond the sorrow of the loss of his brother, always wondered what happened to his flight jacket. It was the navy G-1 type that my father had worn as a fighter pilot at Coral Sea and Midway and that he gave to his brother in the summer of 1942.

Rich

Very moving story Rich…

The 9th AF in the E.T.O.
371st Fighter Group

http://www.airwarweb.net/usaaf/9af_371fg.php

371st Fighter Group
405th Fighter Squadron

9th Air Force 1945 Chronicles
http://www.airwarweb.net/usaaf/9af_1945-02.php

FRIDAY, 5 JANUARY 1945
TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force):

The 9th Bombardment Division attacks rail bridges at Ahrweiler, Simmern, and Bullay, Germany and communications centers at Gouvy, Houffalize, and near Durler, Belgium, and Massen, Luxembourg.
Fighters escort the 9th Bombardment Division and VIII Bomber Command, fly armed reconnaissance, attack airfields, communications centers, traffic concentrations, and other targets, and support the US III and VIII Corps W and E of Bastogne and the 2d and 3d Armored Divisions near Manhay, Belgium.
HQ 368th Fighter Group and the 395th, 396th and 397th Fighter Squadrons move from Juvincourt to Metz, France with P-47s.

Another problem with claims of aircraft ground kills is that the Germans started to place non-serviceable aircraft around the airfield as ‘bait’, so Allied fighter pilots would waste their ammo on these aircraft.
I’ve seen film of a twin engined aircraft being shot up, and you can quite clearly seen that the aircraft is propped up on a trestle.

Maybe some were, but I’d be willing to bet that many were not.

Indeed, but the problem is… how many :wink:

Fair enough…God only knows :slight_smile:

there is’nt any right or wrong answer it all depends on their application;but nothing can beat the sound of amerlin engine at full power.

Seems you never heard a Griffon or a DB605.:wink:

the helcat and corsair where carier based and p51 wassent. its like comparing the modern f18 vs the f22

. for speed and high altytudes p51
low ground attack the hellcat and vs fighters at low altytude the corsair i gues