According to the ideals of certain fantasists, perhaps…
…but in the cool light of reality,the P-38 must be judged as an expensive also-run against the top-flite competition [of either side]…
…& just like the P-39/63, [ & for good reasons,- as previously posted]…
…UNWANTED - by the top guns of the 8th USAAF/RAF… for air-superiority combat against the toughest, most technically advanced WW2 opposition, in late-war NW Europe…
For example, F.G. stats for 8th AF ‘Big Week’…
P-38s - 2 operational Fighter Groups = 10 e/a claimed.
P-47s - 11 operational Fighter Groups= 78 e/a claimed.
P-51s - 2 operational Fighter Groups = 64 e/a claimed.
& more from the official USAAF ETO stats:
P-38 is credited with 1,771 e/a destroyed
vs
P-38 losses 1,758…
What’s the betting - those e/a claims were worth less than the lost Lightnings? …Hmmm… …not too ‘profitable’…
Why? It was reported to have been more maneuverable than either the Me109 or FW190 in later versions flown by veteran pilots. It also drastically outscored the Japanese…
…& just like the P-39/63, [ & for good reasons,- as previously posted]…
Um, check your facts, again. The P-39 was largely gone from the USAAF by 1943 whereas the P-38 flew in large numbers until the end of the war and almost to 1950. There were nearly 10,000 produced and the most numerous was the P-38L - the definitive edition…
…UNWANTED - by the top guns of the 8th USAAF/RAF… for air-superiority combat against the toughest, most technically advanced WW2 opposition, in late-war NW Europe…
Unwanted by the 8th, but not the 370th. The Eighth was also never issued nor really evaluated the P-38L, which was almost a different aircraft and flew sorties over “late war Europe” top the very end. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about…
Cited from where?
Hello to all, I believe that our friend J.A.W wants to redo history also him, he is not less of them that of quoted it German, those called it here “Der Gabel schwantz Teufel” or “The Devil with forked tail” what revealed what they thought some well, and that of quoted it Pacific the two bigger American aces are on P38, then to pretend while leaving I don’t know what sources that the one would be here less efficient that the P51 P47S or other and a heresy that doesn’t hold of quite the account of the war facts and relief rather of a historic pseudo speculation that one too often finds unfortunately on internet.
Best Regards Fred
That “Forked tailed Devil” slogan has long been revealed as a propaganda myth, - pure P.R. hype Fred…whereas the 8th AF loss statistics are available for checking…
The unequivocal facts that contemporary testing produced, with performance evaluations/comparisons by USAAF Air Materiel Command & equivalent RAF sources/campaign histories are like-wise available…
& subjective application of the emotive terms ‘pretend/heresy/pseudo-speculation/redo history’ in a garbled post is quite, ah… ‘unfortunate’, too…
The R. Freeman 8th AF histories are a fairly well researched start if you are interested though…
It wasn’t a “propaganda myth.” It was in fact a German designation. Though some Luftwaffe pilots - especially the Experten - certainly learned its weakness and could exploit the inexperience of the early American pilots. Especially considering they often outnumbered P-38’s up to five Jagdwaffe planes to one USAAF fighter often in encounters! The “fork tailed devil” was battling the Luftwaffe long before the USAAF and Commonwealth Air Forces had achieved air supremacy or even superiority. One of the “facts” that gets lost in your prosecutorial case against the Lightening…
Totally invented P.R. hype in fact, show one primary historical source [not some M. Caiden fantasy]- & the same applies to “whispering death” being the Nippon name for the F-4U…
Funny, I’d never heard that P-38s were the primary fighter in the Battle of Britain…when the Luftwaffe was for the 1st time - forced to conceed air superiority, & effectively lost the war for Hitler…
Same applies for Malta too…P-38s there when it mattered in the MTO? Don’t think so…
Sounds like an opinion…
Funny, I’d never heard that P-38s were the primary fighter in the Battle of Britain…when the Luftwaffe was for the 1st time - forced to conceed air superiority, & effectively lost the war for Hitler…
Same applies for Malta too…P-38s there when it mattered in the MTO? Don’t think so…
I’ve never heard of the P-38 in the air war over North Vietnam either. Proof it was horrible!
Hello to all, I don’t know of or you hold your information but for what is the P38, she was named “The devil to forked tail” by the pilots is this is mentioned in several biographic works. It is some in the same way for the F4U, I don’t know really why and that puts back it in question. When in the P38, she was used in ETO during World War II, but not after, the French aviation never put in service of the P38 to the vietnam and during the war of Korea the one was not used here also. I would like to see the sources that you use to affirm this, as I already told it higher the sources solely based on internet are not guaranties seen the manipulations that one can find there.
Best regards Fred
Nickpf, there were in fact US WW2-era twin-engined piston planes used in combat over Vietnam…but not P-38s, [B-26s -formerly- A-26s]…since P-38s weren’t considered to be ‘keepers’ by the USAF…
& IF the Luftwaffe had gained air-superiority over Britain or Malta, there would not have been any bases for P-38s to operate from in the ETO/MTO, when the U.S. had joined the fighting…
Fred, I have NEVER seen an original WW2 German source [‘Signal’ magazine for instance] that gives the ‘forked-tailed-devil’ moniker/legend any basis in reality…
When? The B-26 was used over Korea where is was immensely unpopular amongst crews as a piston-engined, obsolete bomber while SAC was getting the newer, frontline stuff. I doubt the Marauder saw anything more than very limited, early duty in the war…
And so what? The P-38 was a fighter! They had Phantoms, F-105’s, F-5’s, F-101’s, F-102’s, etc., in Vietnam. Not piston engined fighters! Another silly comparison with no bearing on anything. They didn’t have Fw190’s in Vietnam! I guess they sucked! as a fighter because the North Vietnamese Air Force didn’t use them! (such red herring comparisons are getting beyond ridiculous at this point)…
& IF the Luftwaffe had gained air-superiority over Britain or Malta, there would not have been any bases for P-38s to operate from in the ETO/MTO, when the U.S. had joined the fighting…
Um, England? North Africa?
Fred, I have NEVER seen an original WW2 German source [‘Signal’ magazine for instance] that gives the ‘forked-tailed-devil’ moniker/legend any basis in reality…
So? There are plenty of English language sources. I think there are one or more books precisely named that. Maybe you should write a book that disputes this?
Um…if the Luftwaffe had neutralised the RAF over Britain or Malta/Africa, then there would be no bases for the U.S. forces to ultilize there…
The B-26 operated in the COIN role in Vietnam, it was not the Martin Marauder, but the A-26 Douglas Invader, re-designated…the point being… that just like the Douglas Skyraider, even if the aircraft was piston engined - yet deemed effective in the attack role, it was kept in service use…& the P-38 was not…since in WW2 it had been shown to be too costly/vulnerable/ineffective in the attack role…
English language sources that reference/verify the original German usage of the F-T-D?
I doubt it…do feel free to show proof if you have it…
So? What do hypotheticals and “what-ifs” have to do with anything?
The B-26 operated in the COIN role in Vietnam, it was not the Martin Marauder, but the A-26 Douglas Invader, re-designated…the point being… that just like the Douglas Skyraider, even if the aircraft was piston engined - yet deemed effective in the attack role, it was kept in service use…& the P-38 was not…since in WW2 it had been shown to be too costly/vulnerable/ineffective in the attack role…
Again, you’re being ignorant either intentionally or for the purposes of trolling. There were NO piston engined fighters from WWII in service during Vietnam. And where was it shown the P-38 was costly/vulnerable/blah blah blah in WWII when it was utilized as a divebomber and tactical support fighter in the form of the P-38L during the Normandy Invasion?
*BTW, the B-26 Invaders were withdrawn from Vietnam in 1964, a year prior to the main phase of American involvement in the Vietnamese War…
English language sources that reference/verify the original German usage of the F-T-D?
I doubt it…do feel free to show proof if you have it…
Why don’t YOU read them? You’re the one denying the sources?
Locking this thread and issuing formal warning for argument spamming and trolling…
Generally accepted historical facts:
Airwar was virtually over by May 1944, as evidenced by the lack of Luftwaffe opposition to the D-Day invasion, lack of opposition to bombing raids, and the virtual slaughter of Japanese planes at the “Marianas Turkey Shoot” in June 1944. Certainly sporadic opposition continued by Axis forces who hoarded their scarce resources (planes, pilots, fuel) for last ditch missions.
P-51 was chosen over the P-38 by Gen. Doolittle of the 8th AF primarily due to maintenance, a single was easier to maintain than a twin. He wanted to standardize on one type for ease of maintenance, very logical.
Other main disadvantage of the P-38 was training time, took about twice as long for a new pilot to become an expert in the P-38 as it took for any single engine fighter.
The dive flap did not restrict the diving speed of the P-38, it redirected the airflow so that control surfaces were more responsive. Compressibility prohibited control of the P-38 at speeds approaching Mach 1 due to the airflow over the tail surfaces being disturbed. Other planes did encounter this phenomenon, especially those capable of high altitudes where the speed of sound was lower.
Comparison of later fighter types (P-51, Hellcat) to earlier types (P-38, P-39, Wildcat) is difficult because the opposing forces (Luftwaffe, Japanese) were much stronger against the earlier types, in terms of pilot quality and numbers of aircraft. Certainly the P-51BCD and Hellcat were superior to the P-39 and Wildcat, but the earlier planes were always outnumbered and the enemy pilots were of much higher quality. The P-39 and Wildcat certainly contributed to the attrition of enemy planes and pilots.
H.G… You cannot be serious…
The air-war over NW Europe in the final year of the war was super-intense…
So much so that the USAAF had to relegate its dedicated high-altitude turbo-charged P-38J [see USAAF technical report in post #45 this thread] & P-47D long-range interceptors to the tactical support role [& indeed the P-38 was even tried in the medium bomber role - due to excessive casualty rates] in favour of the P-51…
& how many P-38s obtained jet claim/credits? FYI, RAF Tempests were credited [via gun camera film] with every type of Nazi jet flying, inc’ He 162…
& P-38s were Vne limited to ~100mph less than say, a Tempest [540mph IAS Vne @ 10,000ft] , which was a grave disadvantage compared to 109/190s,
Whereas, P-38s in the PTO did not have to contend with such high air-speed capable opponents…
Hello to all, the again JAW mister you make mistakes, Hggiley is right, if the stiff American were important, it is solely of has it an intense activity of attack to soil. The German had lost all their big pilots practically and the schools only trained rare pupils, it was mainly of the to the lack cruel of fuel, reread a little if ever you didn’t read it, the book of Adolf Galland “The first and the last”, he explains this state of fact very well. When to the P38 he/it gave all satisfaction until doesn’t have the end of the war of it displeases you, she was a great plane of attack to soil, it was of the by the fact that his arming mainly concentrate in the nose, allowed him an absolutely negligible fire power besides the last types were equipped also of rockets. Those here although not very precise were less dangerous of it against objectives to soil.
To come back on the topic of the German aerial activity in the beginning of 1945, the only big offensive and that was the latest was the one of January 1st, 1945 and that it especially balanced by a smarting failure of the to the lack hollowing means. The also the German lost a lot of their precious hunters, all their last activities at the time of the last months of the war were scattered, himself cotentant as says it if well Galland in her book to tempt to intercept more and more enormous masses of hunters and bomber ally. Besides its last exit or he was also wounded, made itself with 12 hunters against… 700 Thunderbolt, what tells some long on the aerial mastery that the ally possessed to that moment.
Best Regards Fred
& you Fred, FYI… On P.103 ‘Flames in the Sky’ by P.Clostermann it is written…
“At Fassberg in 1945 I saw a combat film of Hans Phillip shooting down the four Lightnings of a section one after another.
It might have given budding P-38 pilots something to think about, but luckily the war was over.”
& …“But as a straight fighter it was never as good as the P-51, or even that big brute the P-47 Thunderbolt.”
The Jagdwaffe was exemplary in its unmitigated efforts to provide the best feasible response in regard to its bounden duties…
… until ordered to cease-fire, & in-spite of the crushing odds & manifold difficulties , were mounting operations unstintingly throughout the war…