Perfidious French?

Very astute observations, which neatly sum up the conflicts in France at the time, and which explain in large part the actions of Petain which were contrary to the interests of France per se and especially the interests of France in supporting Britain to defeat the Nazis and expel them from France, e.g. keeping the French navy under Vichy control rather than releasing it to aid Britain. Which, essentially, reflects the defeated and defeatist attitudes of Petain et al and, in no small part, their own fascist tendencies which, in fairness to France, mirrored widespread fascist tendencies in much of Europe and Britain.

Petain’s conduct also exemplifies the consequences of placing power in the hands of an unconstitutionally legitimate leader, as with other dictators and the like.

Apropos the Dutch - who have occupied a fair place in this thread - the constitutional system of constitutional monarchy had (by contrast with the French situation) been pretty stable since (ironically) Napoleon had erected one of his brothers as King of the Netherlands. With Napoleon gone, the dynasty of Orange-Nassau (which had ruled as “Stadthoulders” - albeit not without challenge or misfortune, since the 16th century) stepped into the new and newly-vacant throne with the support of the anti-Bonaparte “allies”, and had been there, on a reasonably stable basis, since then. Dutch politics showed relatively little of the polarization or instability that characterized French (even Belgian, once they had broken away) in the same period. It was therefore something of a misfortune for the Germans that the deliberate effort to capture the Queen and her government was badly botched, and that the heads of the Netherlands administration got to England largely as a result of a number of lucky breaks. (Another occurred when Queen Wilhelmina’s determination to join the main Dutch defensive forces in Zeeland was frustrated by the unexpectedly rapid arrival of the main German invasion force in the Dutch “national redoubt” with the result that major fighting broke out, persuading her British Royal Navy rescuers that it would be much safer for her and her ministers to be brought to England.) If the Royal Family had been captured, it would have removed one very irritating thorn from Germany’s side. At the same time, it is not clear that the Queen would have been willing to play the game of limited co-operation even to the limited extent exhibited by King Albert “the Handsome” of the Belgians. Maybe she would have been almost as bad a liability on their hands than she proved to be in London.

It is also only fair to say that Dutch forces fought bravely and, on occasion, effectively against the Germans. Their military capacity at the time, however, in terms of men, training and equipment, was generally conceded to be very, very limited. Their basic strategy of concentrating most of their military resources in a relatively small “national redoubt”, any German advance on which was supposed to be delayed by the flooding of the countryside in much of southern Holland, amounted to a concession of this by the Dutch themselves. Nonetheless, they did fight bravely. The attempt by German airborne infantry to capture the administrative capital, Den Haag, and with the Queen and government, was badly botched by the Germans but, once they had recovered from the shock, the Dutch Army resisted strongly. While they could not prevent the capture of Den Haag, they did delay and disrupt the German effort, eventually surrounding the hapless German forces who were only relieved by the Dutch surrender. Even in the “redoubt”, strong actions of resistance occurred, notably the one-day defence of Dordrecht which cost the Germans 20-30 panzers. Unfortunately for them, there were limits to the ability of an undermanned, undertrained, poorly equipped, immobile force to resist the German assault, even if the German forces and commanders involved did not make a very good job of it. When one criticizes the Netherlands forces, one should bear this in mind.

One consequence of the Queen’s absence was that the Germans were forced into what amounted to a form of direct rule (with increasingly marginal assistance from Dutch Nazis). In fact, it came close to a form of SS direct rule. In the circumstances, it is hardly surprising that most Netherlanders may (with the exception of the odd political strike) seem barely to have tolerated the new dispensation, and remained loyal to the government-in-exile as their lawful government, even showing this loyalty publicly (at considerable risk) at times. There was even a resistance movement from an early stage, in a country scarcely suitable from its geography for military resistance. That the Dutch resistance movement had a somewhat unfortunate history in some respects does not mean that it was some sort of waste of time. The Queen eventually returned as a heroine; unlike De Gaulle, she had never ceased to have such status.

Sorry for being a bit unhistorical - but I do admire the conduct of the majority of Dutch people during the war. Yours from the Count’s Stockade, JR.

Can’t recall exact circumstances and quote, but at a critical early point after the Queen and her somewhat less solid cabinet had evacuated to Britain and were temporizing at best in the face of the Queen’s determination to fight on, Churchill said of her something along the lines “The Queen is the only man in the Dutch Cabinet.”

Wow, a lot of text here…I only came to the first pages of extensive text of Rising Sun and the commentors on him.
RS makes very good points. Are you Dutch as to know so much about it ?

I like to make this addition in the discussion between the 2 pro and against comparisons Dutch vs French (being in comparable situation yes/no but choosing different outways):
It all comes down to the will power to resist and/or accept Germany (as a partner) or get usurped into the allied (with only Britain) camp.
And the French simply didnot have that resistance. With another French cabinet it might have had it…but that is just the bad luck for a nation in crisis: your actual once elected governement in all its inadequacies has the authority.

The french were politically long before divided into favouring UK or Germany (after France itself ofcourse). There was not much “love” for UK anyway.
Especially if UK could “continue the fight” safe on an island, and France contributing by being turned in a full prison camp. After, in their eyes, being insufficiently backed by the british with a meagre expedionary force and effectively no fighter support over France.
And weren’t the french themselves also not highly anti-Semitic ?

So, it seems that France (with half the country “free”) had a tempting way out (same as with the Nato/communist example), whereas the Netherlands (being fully occupied…safe for Middelburg) did not have that option.
If you copy that opportunity around to the Dutch ; imagine Zeeland would be 40% of the country, and the Dutch Government could stay there but keep their ships and people away from joining the allies in material and finance and have an armistice with Nazi Germany, I am NOT SO SURE that the pussy dutch government AND Queen would still move to britain and continue the fight (also in the NL they requested UK back-up in fighters and landing troops and a nearby UK destroyer, that were denied on many different occasions…).

SOmeone made a link to this:
http://stonebooks.com/history/vichyvsjapan.shtml

How the Vichy french did resist to the Japanese initial incursions in IndoChina.
(I did not know that).
But I found this interesting bit of info:
General Nishihara returned to Haiphong on the 29th but was soon replaced as head of the Japanese mission by General Sumita who seems to have been more able to satisfy Vichy amour-propre. By the middle of October all POWs had been exchanged except 200 German legionnaires of 5th REI who remained in Japanese custody. Japan took possession of airfields at Gia Lam, Lao Kay, and Phu Lang Thuong and stationed 900 troops in the port of Haiphong and a further 600 in Hanoi.

Why were these German Legionnaires kept in JAp pow and why didn’t the french or nazi germans tried to get them back as well ?
What happened with these men ? did they survive the war ?