I take it that the Rising Sun of Imperial Japan is a convenient way for neo-nazis to circumvent laws against displaying symbols from the Third Reich in Germany and yet still identify with the fascism of that era.
If so, given the contempt and distrust between Germany and Japan during WWII, this results in them being even bigger idiots than they already are. :rolleyes:
Originally Posted by aly_j
Not all Germans were bad in ww2. When i look at a German i dont see Nazi at all. I knew you had German blood.Was he in one of those fancy unifroms?
Any one that was born in Germany after ww2 have nothing to do with nazi,but people can be crul.wow where were you born?
Don’t think I’m using improper language, disrespecting anyone or using sarcasm.
I’m taking the chance to be flamed, dumped or even banned but… here I go.
IMO, the Germans were the most evil because they lost the war,
I’m not denying or justifying their atrocities, the Holocaust, the way that in many instances treated POW, etc. but the Russians were not that far behind and they don’t have the stigma the Germans have. People also generalize WWII Germans were all Nazis; I’m not necessarily referring to the members of these forums; it is also generalized that ALL Nazis were SOBs, murderers, etc.; but, IMO, there were also different grades and/or levels of involvement and responsibilities. There were also individuals that, for convenience of the victorious countries, their Nazism was intentionally either ignored or justified. Some examples: http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/project_paperclip.htm
Nonetheless, as a victorious power you have better chance to hide, change, dismiss, diminish, etc, whatever is not convenient to your interests or, on the other hand, highlight, emphasize the defeated defects, wrong doing, flaws, etc. and not credit anything worth the acknowledgment.
Did you know Eisenhower envisioned and implemented the interstate road system after Germany’s Autobahn; the human kind went to the moon thanks to a Nazi rocket scientist named Von Braun; one of the latest US military forms of offensive tactics is based on the German Blitzkrieg, that we are flying jet airplanes thanks to a German WWII airplane engineer/designer named Willy Messerschmitt?
But those things are hardly known or exposed to the general public unless you participate on forums like this one or avid book reader.
P.S. If you think I’m pro German, yes I’m.
“I believe that Germany should not be destroyed, but rather should be rebuilt as a buffer against the real danger, which is Russia and it’s Bolshevism.”
“If it should be necessary for us to fight the Russians, the sooner we do it, the better.”
Patton
He was sooooo right.
Hi Hector,
I don’t deny the many positive contributions that Germans have made to humanity, but will have to dispute/clarify some of your statements.
Interstate Highway System
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System
Initial federal planning for a nationwide highway system began in 1921, when the Bureau of Public Roads asked the Army to provide a list of roads it considered necessary for national defense. This resulted in the Pershing Map. Later that decade, highways such as the New York parkway system were built as part of local or state highway systems. As automobile traffic increased, planners saw a need for such an interconnected national system to supplement the existing, largely non-freeway, United States Numbered Highway system. By the late 1930s, planning had expanded to a system of new superhighways. In 1938, President Franklin D. Roosevelt gave BPR chief Thomas MacDonald a hand-drawn map of the U.S. marked with eight superhighway corridors for study. The publication General Location of National System of Interstate Highways maps out what became the Interstate System, and is informally known as the Yellow Book.
Pershing Map
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pershing_Map
The Pershing Map was the first blueprint for a national highway system in the United States, with many of the proposed roads later forming a substantial portion of the Interstate Highway System.When the United States Army realized it could not satisfactorily meet its World War I logistical needs by railroad alone, it organized truck convoys to supplement them, with the first run in 1917 from Toledo, Ohio to Baltimore, Maryland. Following the two-month ordeal of the U.S. Army Transcontinental Motor Convoy in 1919, the need for better infrastructure became even clearer.
In 1921, Thomas H. MacDonald, the newly appointed head of the Bureau of Public Roads, requested the Army provide it with a list of roads of “prime importance in the event of war.” MacDonald had the Geological Survey and later his own staff painstakingly draft out the details of the Army’s request, and presented the sum of these drawings in a massive 32-foot (9.8 m)-long map to Army War Plans. General of the Armies John Pershing himself reported the results back to Congress in 1922 with the proposal becoming known as the “Pershing Map”…
Jet aircraft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_flight#Historical_examples
The first turbine-equipped jetplane was designed on paper in late 1929 when Frank Whittle of the British Royal Air Force sent his concept to the Air Ministry to see if it would be of any interest to them. The first manufactured turbine jetplane was the Heinkel He 178 turbojet prototype of the German Air Force (Luftwaffe), piloted by Erich Warsitz on August 27, 1939.
[ Ernst Heinkel ] ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_178 )The British flew their famous Gloster E.28/39 prototype on May 15, 1941, powered by Sir Frank Whittle’s turbojet, and piloted by Flt Lt PG Sayer. When the United States learned of the British work, it produced the Bell XP-59 with a version of the Whittle engine built by General Electric, which flew on September 12, 1942, piloted by Col L. Craigie.
The first operational jet fighter was the Messerschmitt Me 262, piloted by Fritz Wendel.
Blitzkrieg - Foreign influence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitzkrieg#Foreign_influence
J. F. C. Fuller
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.F.C._Fuller
In the 1920s, he collaborated with his junior B.H. Liddell Hart in developing new ideas for the mechanisation of armies.His ideas on mechanised warfare continued to be influential in the lead up to World War II, ironically more with the Germans, notably Heinz Guderian, than with his countrymen. In the 1930’s, the Wehrmacht implemented tactics similar in many ways to Fuller’s analysis, which became known as Blitzkrieg. Like Fuller, practitioners of Blitzkrieg partly based their approach on the theory that areas of large enemy activity should be bypassed to be eventually surrounded and destroyed…
…On 20 April 1939 Fuller was an honoured guest at Adolf Hitler’s 50th birthday parade and watched as “for three hours a completely mechanised and motorised army roared past the Führer.” Afterwards Hitler asked, “I hope you were pleased with your children?” Fuller replied, “Your Excellency, they have grown up so quickly that I no longer recognise them.”
Basil Liddell Hart
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.H._Liddell_Hart
Liddell Hart began publishing his theories during the 1920s in the popular press. Ironically, he saw theories similar to or even developed from his own adopted by Germany and used against the United Kingdom and its allies during World War II with the practice of Blitzkrieg.He set out in the years following the First World War to discover why the casualty rate had been so terribly high, and arrived at a set of principles that he considered the basis of all good strategy; principles which, he claimed, were ignored by nearly all commanders in World War I.
He reduced this set of principles to a single phrase, the indirect approach, and two fundamentals:
Direct attacks against an enemy firmly in position almost never work and should never be attempted
To defeat the enemy one must first upset his equilibrium, which is not accomplished by the main attack, but must be done before the main attack can succeed.
In Liddell Hart’s words,“In strategy the longest way round is often the shortest way there; a direct approach to the object exhausts the attacker and hardens the resistance by compression, whereas an indirect approach loosens the defender’s hold by upsetting his balance.”
He also claimed that
“The profoundest truth of war is that the issue of battle is usually decided in the minds of the opposing commanders, not in the bodies of their men.”
“This argues that one succeeds by keeping one’s enemy uncertain about the situation and one’s intentions, and by delivering what he does not expect and is therefore not prepared for.”
Hart explains that one should not employ a rigid strategy revolving around powerful direct attacks nor fixed defensive positions. Instead, he prefers a more fluid elastic defence where a mobile contingent can move as necessary in order to satisfy the conditions for the indirect approach. He would later cite Erwin Rommel’s Northern Africa campaign as a classical example of his theory.
Rocketry
Robert Hutchings Goddard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Goddard_(scientist)
Robert Hutchings Goddard, Ph.D. (October 5, 1882 – August 10, 1945), U.S. professor and scientist, was a pioneer of controlled, liquid-fueled rocketry. He launched the world’s first liquid-fueled rocket on March 16, 1926. From 1930 to 1935 he launched rockets that attained speeds of up to 885 km/h (550 mph). Though his work in the field was revolutionary, he was sometimes ridiculed for his theories. He received little support during his lifetime, but would eventually come to be called one of the fathers of modern rocketry.
Theories of interplanetary rocketry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocketry#Theories_of_interplanetary_rocketry
…Robert Goddard began a serious analysis of rockets in 1912, concluding that conventional solid-fuel rockets needed to be improved in three ways. First, fuel should be burned in a small combustion chamber, instead of building the entire propellant container to withstand the high pressures. Second, rockets could be arranged in stages. And third, the exhaust speed could be greatly increased to beyond the speed of sound by using a De Laval nozzle. He patented these concepts in 1914.In 1920, Goddard published these ideas and experimental results in A Method of Reaching Extreme Altitudes. The work included remarks about sending a rocket to the Moon, which attracted worldwide attention and was both praised and ridiculed. A New York Times editorial suggested that Professor Goddard: “does not know of the relation of action to reaction, and the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react–to say that would be absurd” but that “there are such things as intentional mistakes or oversights.”
Goddard’s historical impact was diminished by the fact that he worked in secret. This was prompted in part by his bad experience with the press and in part by his belief that his ideas were being plagiarized by foreign scientists.
Modern rocketry
Pre-World War II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocketry#Pre-World_War_II
Robert Goddard and the first liquid-fueled rocket.Modern rockets were born when Goddard attached a supersonic (de Laval) nozzle to a liquid fuelled rocket engine’s combustion chamber. These nozzles turn the hot gas from the combustion chamber into a cooler, hypersonic, highly directed jet of gas, more than doubling the thrust and raising the engine efficiency from 2% to 64%. Early rockets had been grossly inefficient because of the thermal energy that was wasted in the exhaust gases. In 1926, Robert Goddard launched the world’s first liquid-fueled rocket in Auburn, Massachusetts.
My quote-Did you know Eisenhower envisioned and implemented the interstate road system after Germany’s Autobahn-
I regards to your quotes on: Interstate Highway System and Pershing Map, I won’t argue them, presume the source where I got the info or me were mistaken, or I interpreted it the wrong way. I stand corrected. How ever, did follow your link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System) and read the following:
“Three different states have laid claim to the title of first Interstate highway. Missouri claims that the first three contracts under the new program were signed in Missouri on August 2, 1956. The first contract signed was for U.S. 66 (nowI-44). On August 13 1956 Missouri awarded the first contract based on new Interstate highway funding.”
Eisenhower was president from 1953 to 1961. Obviously he did not envision the Interstate Highway System but, perhaps after seeing the effectiveness of the Autobahn in Germany, he implemented the project during his presidency and it was my wrong assumption/interpretation that he envisions it. Please clarify. Don’t want to ma the same mistake.
My quote- the human kind went to the moon thanks to a Nazi rocket scientist named Von Braun-
I never said he was the father of Rocketry.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun,
“He is generally regarded by his supporters as the father of the United States space program.” He got us to the moon.
My quote- that we are flying jet airplanes thanks to a German WWII airplane engineer/designer named Willy Messerschmitt?-
Again, never said that he, or the Germans, were the only contributors or developers of Jet aircrafts; it was my mistake, perhaps this would have been less confusing: The first operational jet, fighter or not, was the Messerschmitt Me 262, engineered, designed and developed by the Germans in WWII by Willy Messerschmitt. Eventually the British and the USA developed an operational jet aircraft.
Note: The Me 262 flew almost nine months before the British Gloster Meteor.
My quote- one of the latest US military forms of offensive tactics is based on the German Blitzkrieg.-
Your links were very instructive, learned something interesting. It was not a German conception but they were the fist implementing such actions, and in a very effective way.
Maybe that’s why they get the credit.
George, over all ,I really thank you for your comments and information. Cleared some misconceptions I was guilty of. At least you approach was not of flaming or “proof me wrong”, but of clarification and education.
Thanks sincerely.
P.S. How do you know my name?
Please get it right!
The “proper” Jet engine was first developed by Sir Frank Whittle. I believe it was Wili Messerschmitt who said; that ‘the 262 would have been a much better aircraft had it had the British jet engines’. (Or words to that effect) The British gave away the technology to the US, Who in turn was able to come up with the Sabre & Shooting Star jet fighters. The British (Labour “lefty” government) also gave the technology to the Soviet Union, who went on to produce the Mig 15.
The major innovations of jet flight were the Germans development of high speed/aerodynamic flying surfaces & wings.
So as you can see, it was British Jet Technology that was wanted, not German.
Paul
PS Whittle Turbojet patent: 1930. Ohain Turbojet patent: 1936.
What a tosser.
Hi Hector,
Some responses to your questions and remarks. 
My point being that the groundwork and planning for the U.S. Interstate Highway System began long before Eisenhower’s presidency, to the period immediately following the First World War.
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=136723&postcount=24
Pershing Map
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pershing_Map
Interstate Highway System
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System
U.S. Route 66
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_66
U.S. Route 66 (also known as the Will Rogers Highway after the humorist, and colloquially known as the “Main Street of America” or the “Mother Road”) was a highway in the U.S. Highway System. One of the original U.S. highways, Route 66, US Highway 66, was established on November 11, 1926.
Birth and rise of Route 66
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_66#Birth_and_rise_of_Route_66
US 66 was first signed into law in 1927 as one of the original U.S. Highways, although it was not completely paved until 1938. … Because of the efforts of the US Highway 66 Association, Route 66 became the first highway completely paved in 1938. …During World War II, more migration west occurred because of war-related industries in California. Route 66, already popular and fully paved, became one of the main routes and also served for moving military equipment. Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri was located near the highway, which was locally upgraded quickly to a divided highway to help with military traffic.
Decline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_66#Decline
The beginning of the end for Route 66 came in 1956 with the signing of the Interstate Highway Act by President Dwight Eisenhower. As a General fighting in the European theater during World War II, Eisenhower was impressed by Germany’s high-speed roadways, (themselves influenced by the US highway system) or Autobahnen.
My point here is that the ground work that made space travel possible was laid by earlier pioneers like Goddard.
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=136723&postcount=24
Robert Hutchings Goddard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Goddard_(scientist
Theories of interplanetary rocketry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocketry#Theories_of_interplanetary_rocketry
Modern rocketry
Pre-World War II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocketry#Pre-World_War_II
Wernher von Braun
The Prussian rocketeer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun#The_Prussian_rocketeer
“At the time, Germany was highly interested in American physicist Robert H. Goddard’s research. Before 1939, German scientists occasionally contacted Goddard directly with technical questions. Wernher von Braun used Goddard’s plans from various journals and incorporated them into the building of the Aggregat 4 (A-4) series of rockets. One of the A-4 rockets is the well known V-2. In 1963, von Braun reflected on the history of rocketry, and said of Goddard’s work: “His rockets … may have been rather crude by present-day standards, but they blazed the trail and incorporated many features used in our most modern rockets and space vehicles.” Goddard confirmed his work was used by von Braun when, after the war ended, Goddard inspected captured German V-2s, and recognized many components which he had invented.”
Note - Robert Hutchings Goddard, Ph.D. died August 10, 1945.
My point here is that jet aircraft were independently designed and/or flown before Willy Messerschmitt’s Me 262.
The first turbine-equipped jetplane was designed on paper in late 1929 by Frank Whittle of the British Royal Air Force.
The first manufactured turbine jetplane was Ernst Heinkel’s He 178 turbojet prototype of the German Air Force (Luftwaffe), piloted by Erich Warsitz on August 27, 1939.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_178
The first test flights of Messerschmitt’s Me 262 began on 18 April 1941.
The British flew their famous Gloster E.28/39 prototype on May 15, 1941, powered by Sir Frank Whittle’s turbojet, and piloted by Flt Lt PG Sayer.
The United States produced the Bell XP-59 with a version of the Whittle engine built by General Electric, which flew on September 12, 1942, piloted by Col L. Craigie.
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=136723&postcount=24
Jet aircraft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_flight#Historical_examples
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_262
Probably so, as the Germans were able to do with many of the previous examples in this discussion. They took these ideas and ran with them.
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=136723&postcount=24
Blitzkrieg - Foreign influence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitzkrieg#Foreign_influence
J. F. C. Fuller
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.F.C._Fuller
Basil Liddell Hart
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.H._Liddell_Hart
You are very welcome Hector
And thank you for stimulating the interest. It is always nice to carry on a friendly discussion with members of this forum.
BTW, your name is out there on the Internet if you do a little digging 
Hint - google your forum name.
Thanks George.
This argument about the Third Reich and Communism is just rubbish, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Rumania, Yugoslavia, Albania, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were all non-Communist before WW2 and after WW2 they weren’t. Hitler was an avid book reader. Furthermore it is quite possible to be pro-German without admiring the Third Reich. As for the Russian Communists, the reason they don’t have the stigma that they deserve, is largely thanks to one Mr Adolf Hitler in making the USSR the lesser of two evils. As for Von Braun, it was American technology that got the US to the Moon not Von Braun, the USSR once it had found out everything the Nazi rocket scientists knew, dumped them and continued on successfully with native Russian scientists. Ernest Heinkel in my opinion was a better engineer than Willy Messerschmitt, but apparently not as politically well connected as Herr Messerschmitt.
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
Ok then if Germany gets destroyed for trying to take over europe,then England should go with them,England did the same thing hundreds of years ago.
I dont want england to get destroyed ,just my opinion.
And some germans were good germans,plan to murder Hitler but good luck wernt on there side, some of them lost there lives to kill Hitler.
Who is talking about destroying Germany?
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
He said right at the start of his thread that German peolpe where Evil or some thing like that,and when i saw destroying i jump to my guns in stead of reading his post properly.
Ive got a habbit of not reading post properly.Im naughty
Im sorry HI8hi what ever youre name is;)
Adrian, thanks for mentioning another great engineer, Heinkel, but have to disagree on some points of view.
Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Rumania, Yugoslavia, Albania, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, they may have not been communist before WWII but after WWII these countries were under a communist regime, perhaps not under the Warsaw pact or 100% under the USSR control or with their own idea of communism but indeed they were communist countries, thanks to the USSR. How soon after the war they became communists, I don’t know. Also, that a country or state goverment is communist does not mean that the populations of these countries were all communist, wanted or supported communism. E.g. Poland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe. Look at the 4th map from top to bottom on the right.
I’ve never denied other technologies from other countries and individuals were key factors on the race to the moon or that it was German technology exclusively.
From Wikipedia
“Von Braun worked on the American intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) program before joining NASA, where he served as director of NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center and the chief architect of the Saturn V launch vehicle, the superbooster that propelled the Apollo spacecraft to the Moon. He is generally regarded by his supporters as the father of the Unites States space program,…” We went to the moon under his administration.
Regards
No problem aly j.
My quote- IMO, the Germans were the most evil because they lost the war-
notice I highlighted because they lost the war.
My quote- Nonetheless, as a victorious power you have better chance to hide, change, dismiss, diminish, etc, whatever is not convenient to your interests or, on the other hand, highlight, emphasize the defeated defects, wrong doing, flaws, etc. and not credit anything worth the acknowledgment.
Meaning that, as a defeated country, Germany, you are at the mercy of the victors, who can do whatever they want. Is part of the aftermath when you loose.
we are taught in school about the german scientists contribution to our efforts in everything, as well as russians and other countries.we do not overlook our crimes against the American indians, or blacks either. the average kid today in the US does not think Nazi when they think of Germany. We are a melting pot and we thrive on our differences here to think of new things and culture. i think Germany lost because it was Gods will be done. Hitler was exterminating the chosen people of God, ( im not jewish)
and he caused events to make it stop. I do believe that communism was considered a much more evil power than Nazism.I even think Hitler would have been totally different if they had let him be an artist
Hitler was Germanys worst enemy and not the allies,well thats what i reckon any ways cheers.
aly j, you know what? Think you’re right.
Fair enough
I did not say these countries were Communist before WW2 because they weren’t and in fact in many of these countries Communism was introduced after the defeat of the Third Reich with the peaceable fraternal assistance of their socialist Allies [ ie the USSR ] in other words if you did not like Communism or did not like the Russian brand of Communism and made a point of saying so, you were either murdered or imprisoned locally or sent off in a cattle wagon to Siberia to a Soviet style concentration camp. My point is that while apologists for the Third Reich make a big play of the Third Reich’s supposed anti-communist credentials, it was as a result of the activities of the Third Reich that many countries fell Communist tyranny.
I aim for the Stars but Sometimes I hit London!
In the 1930/40s America never supported its rocket scientists the way the Third Reich did, so with the construction of an intermediate range practical liquid fueled rocket in the shape of the V2, it is quite obvious that Von Braun and his associates are going to be ahead of their US counterparts in 1945 at the end of WW2. But the USSR as a far less advanced state than the USA was able to continue on using its own scientists once it had obtained the knowledge its captured Nazi scientists had, so there is no reason the US could not have done that. Furthermore the USSR just did not have the resources to put a man on the moon in the time scale which the Americans were working to which is an issue of the relative strengths of the USSR and American economies and basically nothing to do with Von Braun. Furthermore manned space-flight apart from its propaganda value during the Cold War except in very limited applications is essentially pointless once the microprocessor technology kicks in, in that pretty much anything that people can do in space, machines can do better and at a fraction of the cost, and I rather suspect that NASA’s on going love affair with idiotic schemes like a manned mission to Mars or even having another manned mission to the Moon is as a result of having been exposed to folks like Verner Von Braun.
Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
Adrian, would you agree with that indeed, the Nazi Von Braun was an important piece in the puzzle of the space race and he was also a key factor in putting man on the moon?