PzKpfw V Panther....the best tank in WW2 ?

World War II German Military
#281

I have to check out the penetration ability of 12.7 mm browning rounds on the top deck of a Tiger, but I am pretty much agreed, with everything else. To explain where I am coming from, for sure the Luftwaffe airdefence and strike capability was in a mess and was incapable of doing anything substantial either to attack the Allied military in France or to offer top cover to their own forces and that was the reality of the situation 1944, but the planing and preparation for Overlord had started a long time before June 1944 and whilst it so happened that the Luftwaffe was a basket case as regards air operations in France, it might not have turned out that way, e.g. Hitler might have been killed in a car crash and been replaced by somebody far more suitable to the environment that Germany found herself in the latter part of the War. As for heavy and medium Allied bombers, whilst they certainly had a part to play, once the Nazi forces tangled with Allied forces or even got substantially close to them, it would have been very difficult to take out the German armor without inflicting substantial friendly fire loses on the Allied units. As for the beaches, in my conception of such a defense of France by a Germany with a better equipped Luftwaffe with Me-262s, the Coastal defenses would be held as long as possible by the fortress troops and the tanks would be held back in the countryside to engage Allied forces that had broken through the coastal defenses, since the German AFVs would not be in line of sight of the Allied battleships, such seaborne heavy artillery would be dependent upon air and ground spotters for firecontrol, a weakness against which it should have been possible to employ various counter measures. As you said “Hitler was probably our best asset”.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

#282

Static testing says the 50 BMG can penetrate 1.5+ inches of steel at 100 yards, zero deflection. I’'d say that is conservative, today, but probably valid 60 years ago. If you add the velocity of the P-47 in a shallow dive then, the projectile velocity is increased, as is it’s penetration. The 50 API BMG is no slouch, and quite good for its caliber.

I was able to get the turret roof armor thickness for:
Panther-0.6 inches, Tiger-1.0 inches, King Tiger-1.8 inches.

I was unable to get the thicknesses for what you call the, “top deck”. I assume we both mean the area over the engine(?), call it the engine cover. I would guess the engine cover thickness would be no thicker than the turret roof, at best, as it also is normally not exposed to ground fire. However, the engine cover has a series of openings, louvers, etc. for engine aspiration and cooling, and these openings are above the flammable fluid lines; fuel, oil, hydraulics, etc. (The engine cover is where the grunts tried to explode Molatov Cocktails) Therefore, they are vulnerable to strafing aircraft.

The average rate of fire of the 50 Aircraft BMG is 1,000-1,200 rpm, depending on the ammunition and condition of the gun. At 1,000 rpm, the P-47’s eight 50 BMG’s spit out 133+ rounds per second (Half that if the wing guns are not converged). That’s 67-113 rounds a second. If the P-47 pilot can stay on target for one second, that’s an awful lot of projectiles hitting the target. Now, given that the law of averages still prevails, that’s still a lot of API and HEI rounds (there was usually a mix) hitting the engine cover so, the chances of at least some of them getting past the cover and hitting something vital and putting it out of action is pretty good. The odds of hitting something flammable is pretty good, too.

As for proposed scenarios; the number of “What if…???” possibilities will boggle the mind, and hindsight is always 20/20. I prefer to stick with the facts as we know them, which is challenging enough when speculating, as we are fond of doing in this forum.

#283

Bearing in mind the tiny percentage of Tanks actually knocked out by aircraft with rockets and bombs it is very unlikely that many were lost to MG fire alone.

#284

The top armor in the Tiger early is 25 mm and later was reinforced to 40 mm, a penetration by a 12,7 mm round never happen.

#285

I am genuinely interested in the source of your information and exactly what a, “tiny percentage”, amounts to? Thanks.

#286

25mm and 40mm equals 1.0 inches and 1.6 inches, respectively. Are you saying this was the actual armor thickness over the engine compartment? I could not find any data that was specific to the engine cover. If you have that data, would you reference it, please?

#287

Kent,

My source is the report 15,No2 ORS 21st Army Group entitled “enemy casualties in vehicles during the retreat from Normandy to the Seine”.
Detailed information was gathered on vehicles left behind. Now admittedly some would have been damaged and recovered, but not many. In the Falaise gap examiners found 385 tanks and armoured vehicles. Of these 13 were confirmed as destroyed by aircraft. 11 by rocket and two by bombs. They concluded that a salvo of 8 rockets had less than a 5% chance of acheiving a single hit. A similar report was carried out by 2nd tactical airforce after the Bulge. They examined an area where pilots claimed the destruction of 66 Tanks and 24 AFV’s, whilst they found 57 tanks, 18 SP’s and 26 other AFV’s in the area abandoned but they concluded only 4 tanks, 2 SP’s and an armoured car were destroyed by air attack. They concluded based on this, allied planes had destroyed 60 vehicles in the entire campaign. Pilots had claimed 750+ kills. They concluded whilst claims were made in good faith ( IE hits were scored) kills were exaggerated on average by 90%.

#288

Hans-Ulrich Rudel destroyed 519 Soviet tanks with its Stuka.
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen9.htm
Also to add a bit of facts to the Sherman Vs T-34 discussion,here’s a quote from Glantz and House’s book “When Titans clashed”
Page 281(paperback edition):“The leading element of this army (6th Guards Tank Army),Lieutenant General M.V. Volkov’s 9th Guards Mechanized Corps,found that lend-lease Sherman tanks were ill equipped for mobility in the swampy passes of the Grand Khingan Mountains(western Mandchuria).As a result ,the T-34’s of Lieutenant General M.I. Savelev’s 5th guards Tank Corps assumed the lead during the final advance.”

#289

Not quite sure how that last bit’s relevant - so far as I’ve noticed I’m the only one supporting the Sherman, and I’ve never claimed it had better cross-country performance than the T-34. From the point of view of armour, gun, mobility, etc the T-34 was better. The Sherman was a much more fightable tank - the human factors side of things was massively better, meaning an equal crew will employ it a lot better, making up for most of the deficiencies.

#290

Of course it is not relevant,I mean here’s a commander who has the choice between two different tanks and wants to achieve a victory.Then he chose the best for its needs.
Fact.

#291

25mm and 40mm equals 1.0 inches and 1.6 inches, respectively. Are you saying this was the actual armor thickness over the engine compartment? I could not find any data that was specific to the engine cover. If you have that data, would you reference it, please?

Yes, 25 mm was the top armor in the entire upper section of the early tiger including turret roof. In january 1944 that figure was increased to 40 mm in turret armor and frontal plate ( driver armor roof).

I am not sure about the engine deck armor, but aniway unless you can dive at straigh 90º over a tank ( wich was not the case) a .50 BMG ammunition could not penetrate that plate.

#292

I can’t argue with that. Excellent research. Thanks.

#293

Agreed, not even a dive bomber achieves 90° in a dive, but I would not sell the 50 BMG that short, either. Ptimms has pointed out that it’s part bad pilot marksmanship, too, and his remark about recovered vehicles is probably relevant, also. Everything I read about the Eastern Front says the fighter bombers on both sides killed lots of tanks, although they were usually armed with 20mm’s, or larger.

#294

Well, The hispano cannon 20 mm used by Spitfires, P-38 and Typhoons could penetrate teorically the roof armor in both in the Tiger Turret ( 25mm) and the Panther one (20 mm), but that was shooting a a extreme short range, no more than 200 meters, so just think…the pilot had a very narrow space of time to aim, shoot and recover before hits the ground ( or hit the tank)

The 23 mm guns used by Russians Il-2s managed to get trough the top plate in the turret and driver roof armor in the Tiger and Panther, that is why the germans increased it to 40mm in the Tiger.

About the russian cannons I have a very detailed topic in the Russian military section.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5365&page=5

#295

Thanks Kent. It’s actually referenced in a book “Spearhead for Blitzkreig”, a book on Luftwaffe support of the Army. It’s one of those written by German Officers for the US forces after the war. It has some great references.

#296

I ordered a copy for myself. 'Can’t wait to read it. Thanks, muchly!

#297

The death of a Panther.

City of Köln ( Cologne) 3th march 1945, breaking the resistance of the army and Volkssturm militia, the US army 3rd armored Div penetrate in the city, in the streets near the cathedral some combat took place between a Panther and 3 Div tanks, The following images show the destruction of a Panther by a brand new M26 Pershing.

The Panther hits a Sherman with a single shot, the tank is wrecked, 2 of the crew bailed out seriously wounded.

The Pershing advancing by the side street at full trottle and shoot in the move, the Panther is hit in the rear hull.

Given the position of the panzer turret is probably that the german gunner was about to open fire…but the stabilization in the Pershing allowed it to shoot first.

The german tank commander crawls out , in the meanwhile the ammunition cook off…

the MG 34 gunner tries to get out…

#298

The death of a Panther (II)

The driver scapes…

another figure emerges from the turret, maybe the gunner or loader…

The Panther is hit again, the 90 mm AP round penetrates the mantlet, 110 mm of hard german steel are defeated. Unthinkable achievement with a Sherman…but the Pershing is other story

#299

That’s the famous Panther kills Sherman, Pershing kills Panther battle of Cologne, March 6th 1945. In contrary to the narration of the clip, two soldiers of the german Panther crew have actually survived this.
Lately it was discovered that the whole thing did occure a little different than we all know. Some scenes had been re-performed the next day.

#300

The Death of a Panther (III)

When the combat camera guy get focus again the driver completed its scape, somehow he managed to survive the last 90 mm hit, however one of the crew in the turret did not.

The Panther is hit the third and last time, flames erupted everywhere…the kill is completed.

And this is the final state, the heat softened the internal torsion bars lowering the height of the tank.