PzKpfw V Panther....the best tank in WW2 ?

I’m not talking about WWII. “Modern tanks” is the key. The gas turbine in the M-1 was a game changer and the Abrams was the first modern tank with a high level of automotive performance described as a cross between a “dump truck and a sports car.” In the early 1970’s, turbo-diesel technology wasn’t quite there yet, and Chrysler (the original producer of U.S. tanks) had significant experience in producing gas turbine engine technology, and in the 1970’s the U.S. Army still had a significant fleet of gas powered vehicles. The U.S. Army and Marine Corp are now indeed thinking seriously of ditching the turbines in favor of an MTU similar to the one in the Leopard II series due to fuel economy issues and the logistical problem of two fuel streams as everything else in now diesel under the hood. They would have done so already if not the Iraq War sapping funds and causing developmental headaches.

AFAIK The T-34 had a massive engine block of two diesel units to give it needed combat power. I’m not sure why diesel units weren’t more popular in WWII AFV’s, but I imagine cost and ease of production and maintenance were issues. Certainly, it was not because the United States or Britain were worried that diesel engines were more combustible than petrol. Diesel burns at much higher pressure and temperature than petrol does, and is certainly a bit safer. But in a tank with large amounts of ammo cooking off, any fuel will eventually burn. Especially with the “Ronson” or “Tommy-Cooker” reputation that the Sherman had, based mainly on ammunition stowage and the lack of wet-stowage, it’s hard to say that diesel powered vehicles are any more vulnerable that gas ones to brewing-up…

I dunno. Are you aware of any studies? It might be worth noting that prior to Korea, all U.S. AFV’s were gas-powered, and after they went to diesel for the Patton series of tanks prior to the Abrams. So obviously, diesel isn’t a survivability issue. Gasoline does burn much more easily, but also wasn’t the issue it was made out to be with the unfair, incorrect “always lights on the first strike” reputation the Sherman has…

*P.S.: the only studies I’m aware of were of tank battles between the (mainly North Korean) T-34/85’s and the American tanks such as the M24 Chaffee, the Sherman M4A4E8 (76mm), and the M26/M46 series. The Americans tended to come off better because of optics and crew training, even in the Sherman. The 76mm gun could penetrate the T34 at combat ranges using tungsten core ammo at about the same range as the 85mm could kill the Sherman. The Chaffee not so much. I believe the T34/85’s might also have had a problem with haphazard ammunition storage - something that has afflicted Soviet tanks up until the end of the Cold War…

//youtu.be/3LeRSPuA5Z4

:mrgreen:

A couple of points… The Detroit Diesel Shermans were supplied to the Soviets,[& not to US combat forces] likely due to their logistics using Diesel for T34s.
Diesel-tech was well advanced by the `50s, [see Napier Deltic/Nomad] but - Chrysler Corp pushed the use of gas-turbines in the Abrams, since they had invested so much in the automotive applications of G-Ts, & due to them never being as cost efficient as Diesels, saw the way of having Uncle Sam paying for the extra expense as a cool deal.
The best tank in Korea was the British Centurion, & the Australian Centurions were the best tanks in Vietnam, both running on petrol fuelled RR mills.
Since the US/British/German forces in NWE did not use Diesel tanks in WW2, it is unlikely that they would have had much evidence of the explosive effects of Diesel when shock detonated, which is of course how Diesel mills function [as discretely timed events of course],& so pictures showing volatility at ambient atmo temp/pressure are meaningless.

& Diesel, it in fact, has a lower auto-ignition temp’ value than gasoline…

First thing the Israeli did with their Centurions was to replace the obsolete Petrol engine with diesel engines.

1st thing? Hardly…since theyd had em in service for decades already..& yes, replacement/refurbishment of worn out, obsolete military machinery is big business in Israel, & they were looking at doing business for the many Centurions still in service in the 3rd world too... No doubt, in converting them to Diesel, the Israeli engineers gave due consideration to ensuring that their tankers would not be incinerated by Diesel explosions as readily as those in Soviet built tanks, theyd seen plenty of those…

Soviet tanks incinerated because of ammo and gas tanks that were not compartmentalised from each other , so one ignited the other. It had nothing to do with diesel fuel.

Gas tanks? Diesel, having a higher unit BTU value, burns more fiercely, & blows up like-wise…on being kinetically shocked…Have another look at some T34 brew-up footage…

Was utilization of Diesel power - a stand-out postive advantage for the T34 in WW2?
No, in fact, it was one of the liabilities that prevent it being ‘the best’…

Actually, U.S. combat forces in the Pacific Theater - i.e. the U.S. Marine Corp - were issued diesel powered Sherman tanks…

Diesel-tech was well advanced by the `50s, [see Napier Deltic/Nomad] but - Chrysler Corp pushed the use of gas-turbines in the Abrams, since they had invested so much in the automotive applications of G-Ts, & due to them never being as cost efficient as Diesels, saw the way of having Uncle Sam paying for the extra expense as a cool deal.

Um, that’s kind of crap. The Army selected the gas turbines out of reliability and ease of production should mass production of the M-1 become necessary in advent of total war with the U.S.S.R…

The best tank in Korea was the British Centurion, & the Australian Centurions were the best tanks in Vietnam, both running on petrol fuelled RR mills.

You won’t get an argument from me saying anything other than the Centurion was an excellent tank. But what did the power-plant have to do with that? The Centurions engine was absurdly inefficient and had a notoriously low combat range. It was also difficult to do simple maintenance tasks on such as changing the oil. And while I love the Centurion tank, how many T-34’s did they destroy? Why were they any better than the M-46 Patton?..

Since the US/British/German forces in NWE did not use Diesel tanks in WW2, it is unlikely that they would have had much evidence of the explosive effects of Diesel when shock detonated, which is of course how Diesel mills function [as discretely timed events of course],& so pictures showing volatility at ambient atmo temp/pressure are meaningless.

Okay, so the Germans didn’t study the effects of “shock detonation” on Soviet tanks?

‘Crap’ huh… well that is what the Marines usually get from the Army, equipment-wise, right? I was referring to the armour studies done in the NWE theatre…

Chrysler engineering isnt 'crap' either, & while they could nt turn a commercial buck with gas-turbine cars or truck/industrial mills, they sure got the Pentagon to ante-up…

& You do realize that the RR mill in the Centurion IS the same basic unit that powered the P51s over Berlin, to enable the viability of the strategic bombing campaign…& so, sure, the tank was thirsty, & had a non-user-friendly trans, & is typically British nuts 'n’bolts difficult with mechanicals - but has superb cross-country ability…better than the Patton…also better in protection, gun dynamics & other combat useful abilities, just ask the Israelis…

Diesel was German,& they used quite a few in WW2, but they chose not to copy that aspect of the T34, umm…I wonder why?
Of course the allied armour study team would have checked out German tanks, likely not T34s though -but would they have access to the German studies via Operation Paperclip? maybe, but would they have acknowledged the source?

Or, if they knew they had a technical edge due to the T34 Diesel factor, would they have kept it secret, what with the cold war & all…

& even if you match up the Meteor, 1-on-1 with the T34, in a technical tank vs tank comparison - feature for feature, then [just as with the Panther] - the T34 is toast…

US General John O`Donnell had this to say about the Centurion’s battlefield capabilities in Korea…

“In their Centurions, the 8th Hussars have evolved a new type of tank warfare, they taught us that anywhere a tank can go is tank country - even the top of mountains.”

A Centurion also survived a direct nuclear test blast in Australia, it was still functional [it had run out of gas - that bloody thirst] & went on to serve in Vietnam.

The Aussies valued the Centurion’s powerful cross-country performance in the jungle conditions, as well as the protection of their heavy armour, even when struck by RPGs…

& the Israelis selected the Centurion [over their US tanks] as MBT - to defeat the [Soviet equipped] Syrian tank forces in the Golan Heights during the `73 Yom Kippur war…

I’m well aware of the Centurion’s virtues as I mentioned previously - especially in regards to its excellent crew protection. I believe one took a dozen or so hits from North Vietnamese rocket propelled grenades and still brought its crew back alive. The Merlin/Packard engine was excellent in aircraft, but inefficient in a tank and was part of the initial design only because British industry could make a lot of them to expedite the deployment of the Centurion before the end of the war. But the tank had far under 200 miles of range, and like the 17-pdr. gun, it needed to be upgraded in post war service. Diesel powered Centurions soldiered on well into the 1990’s…

I didn’t mean Chrysler’s engineering was crap. They merely produced as many with off-the-shelf technologies in order the get the overdue Abrams tank into line units as quickly as possible as the Patton series was becoming outdated as a front line tank, though was still very effective even at the end of its service life. As for comparisons of the Centurion and Patton series of tanks, both had advantages and drawbacks, but I recall seeing that many Israeli crews actually preferred the M-48/60’s because they tended to be more reliable and robust in the desert. That being said, both were extremely good though the Israeli Centurions lacked night-fighting capability causing some tactical scares against IR-equipped T-55’s in 1973. Suffice to say, both the Centurion and Patton series bested their Soviet designed competition and both were very good tanks…

Because the Germans chose not to directly copy the T-34. They chose to try to better it with the Panther, a tank that had problems with its gasoline engine and overtaxed transmission. In short, the Germans were simply trying to get the tank in service in a minimal amount of time by using available parts. But the design buckled under the heavy frontal armor mandated by Hitler…

The Germans knew about Diesel explosions,& they flew Diesel powered bombers [Ju-86P] in combat.
They chose not to run Diesel in their panzers.
http://www.convault.com/disasters/ULSD.html

& yes, of course the Israelis selected the Centurion for the Golan Heights for a MBT slug-fest over their U.S. tanks, for the shooting/protection performance edge, & by the same reasoning they chose the M-48/60s for range/mobility in the desert…horses for courses…

ANFO - Amoninium Nitrate Fuel Oil explosive - is a very powerful explosive commonly used for blasting due to cheapness.

Continued

“…the Diesels of the time were not up to powering the heavier tanks…”

Do you mean British Diesels? I assume so since Soviet tanks were…& Detroit Diesel powered Shermans supplied to them obviously were,too…

[ British didn`t want them? or even Detroit-Diesel mills to power their own tanks?] -Detroit Diesels, which were a new, powerful 2-stroke unit, built by G.M., capable of modular unitization[ meaning that use of cylinders of the same displacement in increasing multiples ie 6/71 -six cyl of 71 c.i. or 8-12-16/71] that provides plenty of power, as needed by large heavy units like boats & fast heavy road transport…

…including Greyhound buses, which as U.S. interstate/continental transport are in a very different league from a London doubledecker…

They were retired (from front line service anyway) about the same time as the final version of the M-60A3 left U.S. service. Several of them now serve as monuments around here in front of various veteran organizations. I’m not sure if any Cent’s are left in front line service, I believe South Africa was the last major nation to equip armored units with them. There are several NATO, as well as non-NATO, countries such as Bosnia that received essentially free M-60A3’s and I think there is an upgrade to the M-60 “2000” variant, but not sure if anyone would bother…