PzKpfw V Panther....the best tank in WW2 ?

Diesel is generally considered safer than Petrol because it doesn’t form vapour easily. If heated enough it’ll burn or even explode, but getting the right conditions is actually pretty difficult. In some circumstances it is possible to put out a match by dunking it in a pool of diesel (NOT all, so don’t try this at home!). Petrol on the other hand forms a vapour layer pretty easily at room temperature, and this vapour layer is typically explosive. You regularly get people dying of burns when trying to light a bonfire with petrol - they put the petrol on the fire, and don’t realise that the pool of vapour extends for several feet outside the edge of the fire. When they light it, they get very badly burnt.
The net result is that while Diesel has a lower fire point and more energy per unit volume than Petrol, it is less likely to explode or burn in practice because getting the right air/fuel mix is much harder.

Oddly, Le Mans racers have started to go Diesel though. Diesel engines get better fuel efficiency (the cycle allows much higher pressure ratios than the Otto cycle since the fuel won’t pre-detonate, and that means relatively cool exhaust gas and hence lower exhaust pipe losses). However, this (and the heavy flywheel needed to keep it turning) mean the engine has to be built much heavier than a similar power Petrol unit. That will always mean a poorer power to weight ratio than Petrol - hence F1 and motorbikes sticking with Petrol, while car engines (in Europe at least) are rapidly changing to Diesel.

Heavy tanks are naturally unbalanced. However, comparing the KV1 to the Tiger is a little unfair - the Tiger was in large part designed to beat the KV1. It would be fairer to compare it to contemporary tanks such as the Panzer III or Char B1. There, it comes of rather more favourably.

The cynic in me says that for 200 tanks produced and transported to the battlefield, the Germans managed to knock out 269 Soviet tanks. Given that the production cost of a Panther was several times that of a T-34, I’d suggest they weren’t getting very good value for money (and they were in a resource limited war).

LOL Um, what? What post are you referring too? Why would NATO adopt the strategy of defeat? I don’t recall NATO planning any massively telegraphed offensives and their strategies were initially “defense-in-depth” (based on the French hedgehog anti-panzer methods that were effective, but too late). NATO then went to “Air Land Battle 2000,” which was to maximize the advantages of the U.S. and Euro tanks and AFV’s had and use them to actively sever Soviet axis’ of advance from their logistical chains. Neither had particularly much to do with German tanks or operational planning in WWII…

:lol:You know, this reminds me of a pointless training course I was forced to go on a few years ago and, especially, a particularly pointless exercise in which I was required to play the part of a “manager”, conducting a “hr” interview with an uncooperative subordinate who was “underperforming”. The part of the “subordinate” was, in fact, played by an intelligent colleague of more-or-less equal experience to my own. The result was a half-hour of utter futility, in which every effort on my part to get at the “problem” was effectively blocked by my friend - with tactics valid, or otherwise, depending on my approach. A bit like a chess game, in which Gari Kasparov was playing Gari Kasparov. I have my own views on this question (I am, on the basis of the balance of firepower/protection/mobility/economy of production/ ease of repair/operational versalitity etc… a T-34 man) but I am not really clear that this is getting us anywhere … or even clarifying very much. Yours from the Strategic Management Loony Bin, JR.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Leccy is quite correct. If he isn’t, then how would you explain the definite and complete lack of petrol powered construction equipment and commercial trucks? Diesels are vastly more fuel efficient, offer substantially more torque, and have a much longer service life. Almost everything bigger than a sump pump on any construction site is powered by a diesel engine and gasoline has gone the way of the dinosaur in virtually any industrial application…

Gas engines may provide greater H.P. per cubic inch, but do consume greater amounts of fuel, and require more maintenance than do Oil burners. The M-88 Recovery Vehicle used a Gas engine, which was very noisy, I asked the Maint. Sgt. why it had a gasser, and he said it was needed for horse power. This must have been a serious consideration for the Military, as it is the single piece of large equipment that uses gasoline as fuel. anything larger than a “5 quarter” (1.25 ton) truck was diesel. I have to qualify that by saying that all Diesel trucks were multi-fuel which could be with changing of some parts be run on different fuels, but I do not recall if gasoline was one of the choices.

It is exemplary to history of armour and WWII that almost most of the time were armour was in a certain period in the war found to be superior it was usually found on the losing side at the same period… Matildas were on the losing side, KV-1’s were, Char B1 were, early T34 were, Tigers were… And the winners were panzer II’s and III’s and later burning T34’s and Shermans…

It is a plain fact that the quality of one single tank design does not make a war.
This means that being a “fan boy” of a single tank design (i’m a fan boy as well… of several designs :slight_smile: ) is not a crime, but being a fan you still need to see the context and the limits of the impact of a simple tank design. Tigers are simply one hell of a nice tank to build in model for example and ye sthey have the myths… No one argues that. Telling that winning the war with 6000 more tigers is another thing however… I love WWII armour and panzers… but hey, Germany had its best moments with the Luftwaffe. Saying that any tank would have done the job is not that stupid. The main assets of the Panzerwaffe was discipline, doctrine and big turret/large crew.

Nazi propaganda usually was based on anti-Russian feelings, tank design was as well. The T34 is well overrated in many aspects, but don’t make the same mistake with the Tiger. It was a great tank in 1943, dominating many tank vs tank battles. But that period went away.

Exactly, but that actually means that the IV was at least a far better effort at the end than the Tiger.
Equipping the production and deisgn of the IV with the Panther features… You know my views :slight_smile:

There were only 90 Tigers in all of Normandy and the Panther’s could be difficult, unless hit from the side. But again, with the points you keep ignoring, the Americans didn’t have so much problems with armor as they had fighting entrenched Heer and SS in the hedgerows.

Even the fanboys disregard the main value of the German Army at that time it seems.

The Tiger project was brought out of mothballs because Hitler and his gang of henchmen were shocked by the T-34’s and KV-1’s coming at them…

Still the germans made more than a nice mothball “collage”.

If the Sherman has a superior kill ratio, better optics than its opponent, better crew comfort, better gun when firing the right ammo, and very good anti-infantry capabilities, how could it be “obsolete?” Tank vs. tank was increasingly rare in Korea and the Shermans were very good infantry support vehicles and they augmented the M-26/46’s well. Tanks were used primarily for infantry support after the opening months of the war. And why would the US Army enjoying air supremacy, already massive artillery advantages, and organic infantry firepower superiority over troops often using ex-Japanese weapons and a hodgepodge scraped together personal weapons need any of that?

What you are saying is that the quality and design superiority of a tank doesnt matter in many situations.
Air superiority is exactly what the Germans had as well in 1940/1941 …
It doesn’t make the Sherman superior. No tank is.

Still I agree with some disagreement. The History of the T34 proves that a “good” tank (strageica) is not necessarily that good (tactical, tank vs tank).
At the head of command, I would choose T34. As a commander in the tank… Tiger any time.

It is you that brought up to idea of “angst” as being an important feature of a tank. In that perspective, The KV-1 is at least in 1941 the match for a Tiger syndrom later in the war. Even better: the fact you call it a failure at the end is the same fact others place on the Tiger. Look at this with a distance and you will see the truth.
Still, I love the Tiger as an artefact, and I love the KV-1 as well.

HP= torque x rpm x some constant crap
This means that a high rpm gives high HP. Low rpm gives less maintenance.
Formula 1 race cars have extreme HP rates per engine displacement (up to 14 000 rpm) but they are ruined after the race.

But J.A.W., really, do a bit more research. Diesel is not more dangerous than gasoline regarding ignition. no it is not. yes it has more energy per volume, but that is all. If the ammo of a tank explodes (i think early shermans had this problem), every fuel will make things worse.

yes, but overall, petrol engines do have lower MAX torque for a given max power output. Because of the higher rpm built in the design.
Have you ever driven non-turbo non-automatic petrol and diesel cars?

Many Allied tanks used ex-aero petrol mills,[Liberty, Meteor V12s, plus Ford V8s & air-cooled radials in U.S. tanks.] since they were purposefully designed for running at max torque while being light & compact…

yes design is design. Even a diesel can be designed for HP and high RPM.

Diesels generally require the additional complexity of turbo-charging to get anywhere near the specific out-put of petrol mills…

turbo charging a diesel engine is actulaly much easier than a petrol engine, because of the working principle (air/fuel system).
and torque is important in a large vehicle. every diesel truck is designed for very high torque/ engine displacement at low rpm.

The Tiger/Panther Maybach, while having teething issues from being rushed into service, was a pretty light/compact package for its out-put, esp’ compared to the Russian mills.

Still, the T34 was faster, because the TOTAL tank was lighter.

T-34 was faster, because Christie loved to demonstrate his designs in dramatic high speed scenarios…

In fact, there were problems with T-34 track design, & even the British Christie tanks had numerous track/suspension re-designs…

Ndf my agreement was with your contention that poor tactical employment of good weapons by incompetent
soldiers can be defeated by good soldiering using lesser weapons systems…

The availability of such a crucial fall-back option of the ‘dreaded’ 88mm ‘check-mated’ both the [other-wise seemingly unstoppable] heavily armoured Matilda IIs & KVs, & so, Hitler demanded that the Tiger packed an 88…

The Tigerish virtues of projecting a top gun [ hard hitting, accurate, quick-firing,] in a crew friendly [ power traverse/trans/steering] roomy, functional, efficient fighting compartment within a well protected [heavy but mobile] chassis were, as the British remarked, “a quantum jump” ahead of the Matilda/KV & still clearly stand out as the conceptual model for modern MBTs, detail differences notwithstanding…

Diesels have advanced since WW2, sure, but c’mon guys , if you’ve operated one, you know they are noisy, stinky, & feel agricultural to drive…

The M-60 series was a pure joy to drive,easy to operate, and had plenty of power, never reluctant to do what was asked of it. The Diesel engine was far less noisy than the gas engine of the M-88, and was reliable in the extreme. Mileage was not bad either, hard surface roads gave 1.1 miles per gallon. Diesel exhaust is worse than gasoline, which is no rose garden either.

Good info again there thanks, T-G…

I think that exhaust noise is largely a function of exhaust silencing arrangements,
& its a given that turbos do tend to muffle somewhat anyhow…

But T-34s for example, had loud, smoky downward facing pipes which blew dust up too…

A bit of an unnecessary giveaway…

& I do like the sound of a healthy Detroit Diesel running hard…
… but that rattle, stink & short legged rev range is not my choice for a personal vehicle, that’s for sure…

Yes and compare the Centurions with meteor petrol engines (which I drove for a while) and the diesel engined ones in use by the Danes (which I did an exchange with), the meteors coughed, farted, stunk, smoked, less power for towing or mine ploughs, backfired and had hideous range (Cent Mk 12).

Same with the British 432 which changed from the B60 petrol to the K60 Diesel/multifuel - with the K60 we had more range, more engine power, faster (non turbo engine), less noise and smoke and no backfires.

Seems more like you have a general dislike for diesel engines than evidence they are worse, all big machinery use diesel’s not petrol.

British did not like the Christie tracks so did not use them at all, nor the idea of removing them to run on road wheels (which the Soviets eventually abandoned as well).

All you show is that the tiger was a leap ahead of older designs not that it was the forerunner of the MBT, the T34 and KV1 were not just leaps ahead of older designs but leaps ahead of contempory designs. The KV1 to my mind still has more in common with the modern MBT.

The Panzer IV G of early 1942 had a, hard hitting accurate gun (75mm L48), fast rate of fire (faster than tiger), 80mm frontal armour, efficient and reliable chassis, good command and control, outclassed all tanks including the Sherman 75mm and T34 -76 which were the most common adversary (its gun out-ranged all allied tanks of the period). oh and for you it still had a petrol engine.

The evolution of the MBT was just that an evolution, no real single tank can take the credit although the Centurion is commonly counted as the first true MBT (despite being Heavy Cruiser [on introduction], Universal, Medium [introduction of Conqueror], Universal [introduction of L7 105mm and retirement of Conqueror] in that order in British service).

Because of the fuel efficiency and the high torque at low rev’s, which is a plus on off-roaf, towing and just plain heavy own weight.
The power of N/A petrol is found at very high rev’s, making them weaker in the steep track, towing and maneuvring. Petrol simply is more prone to stall than diesel. Pure physics. In racing and normal cars, higher rev’s are normal. i’ve never seen mass produced petrol on the railroad and sea…

They were the most produced tank of the Germans anyway. they were not dumb. Well some were not, including Guderian, who stubornly refused to agree with ceasing mark IV production. A wise decision. I’ld like to add the greater abbility in on-field repair, wide spread exchange parts, the knowledge and experience of the crews and it was rather small for its fire power. The 75/L48 gun was efficient till the end of the war. If the Allies could do it with most of their guns till the end, the 75/48 surely could.

It is an error to think that only a tank vs tank superiority brings victory. The Germans actually never did until the madness of the “big cats” broke out.
Whether it is in defense or attack, many more IV’s instead of Tigers would have made perhaps a difference. there was a time there was more personel waiting at the barracks than there were panzers to drive. Is that a formula to succes? no it is not.

Does the Abrams run a Diesel mill?
No…
Is the Abrams gas turbine high revving?
Yes…
Did the KV have a large, long barrel, high velocity, long range, accurate, hard-hitting main gun like a MBT?
No…
Did the Centurion have a semi-auto trans & power-steering?
No…
The Panzer IV had a 75mm gun & a 5 man crew, the Crusader had Christie suspension & sloped armour, were these tanks contemporary with the T-34?
Yes…

I operate them daily, diesels anything BUT what you describe above. The Ford F350 6.0L Powerstroke turbo diesel was none of the above and could be a joy to drive…

Does the Abrams run a Diesel mill?
No…
Is the Abrams gas turbine high revving?
Yes…

The M-1A2 Abrams was to have its powerpack switched to a turbo diesel because its gas turbine, old and dated tech that is massively thirsty and a drag on the supply chain, but funds instead went to fighting two wars…