Some days you just cant win, take over a country, and you still cant find a good parking spot…
I remember reading a book years ago in B&N and in it there was a part about testing the mobility of the panther against a sherman and a us light tank, the panther was faster than the sherman and able to outturn both this was done by the us army in europe during war time i think.
About the protection of the panther… the british tested there 76 mm on a panther and a tiger, the glacis of the panther did much better than that of the tiger and the panthers mantlet did only a little better than the tigers.
About the protection of the panther… the british tested there 76 mm on a panther and a tiger, the glacis of the panther did much better than that of the tiger and the panthers mantlet did only a little better than the tigers
It does, even the sub calibre apsv 6 pounder failed to penetrate.
By the way welcome to our forum.
The Sherman was far more agile in cross country conditions…
The sherman had greater ground pressure but I think it could climb slopes better.
Firing test agaist the Panther:
U.S. Army Test No.2
Firing Tests conducted 12-30 July 1944 by 1st U.S. Army in Normandy.
[CENTER]REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF BOARD OF OFFICERS
Organization: Headquarters, First U.S. Army.
Place: APO 230, U.S. Army.
Proceddings of a board of officers which convened at Headquarters, First U.S. Army, pursuant to Special Order No.196, Headquarters, First U.S. Army, 19 July 1944, a copy of which is attached as Exhibit A1.
The board met pursuant to the foregoing order at Headquarters, First U.S. Army, APO 230, at 1400 on 12 July 1944 and on subsequent dates to conduct the firing tests. The final meeting was held on 30 July 1944.
Present: All Members.
Purpose: To conduct tests to determine the effectiveness of tank and anti-tank weapons in First U.S. Army, against the German Mk V “Panther” and Mk VI “Tiger” tanks.
1a. Firing was conducted on terrain permitting 1500 yards maximum range with zero angle of site. All guns and types of ammunition, suitable for anti-tank purposes, available to First U.S. Army were defeated on targets whose armour plate was slightly burned. Upon determination of critical ranges, all penetrations were proven against the armor plate of a German Mk V “Panther” Tank with armor undamaged and in excellent condition. All firing was conducted normal2 to the target. No firing was conducted against the German Mk VI “Tiger” Tank as there were none available.
1b. The following normal types of tank and anti-tank weapons and ammunition were tested; WEAPONAMMUNITIONLauncher, Rocket, AT, 2.36"Rocket, AT, 2.36", M6A1Launcher, Grenade, M8Grenade, AT, M9A137mm Gun, M6, Mounted on Light Tank, M5A1APC M5140mm Gun, M1, AAAP M5857mm Gun, M1APC M86Sabot 375mm Gun, M3, mounted on Medium Tank, M4APC M61HEAT M66 (Special)3-inch Gun, M5, mounted on Motor Carriage, M10APC M62, w/BDF M66A1AP M7990mm Gun, M1A1, AAAP M77105mm Howitzer, M4, mounted on Medium Tank, M4HEAT M67
1c. The board assumed that the effect of hollow charge ammunition is not dependent on terminal velocity but the effect does vary with the angle at which the projectile strikes. Hits approaching 90º angle of impact give better penetration.
2. Record of firing with Photographs. See Exhibit B1.
Findings: The board having carefully considered the evidence before it, finds that:
1) Launcher, Rocket, AT, 2.36"
Rocket, AT, 2.36", M6A1 will penetrate the side of the turret and the side and rear armor plate of the ‘Panther’ Tank at 100 yards. On the bassis of the assumption in paragraph 1c it follows that as the range increases, thereby reducing the angle of impact4 against the side of the turret and side armor plate, the possibility of penetration will materially decrease.
2) Launcher, Grenade, M8
Grenade, AT, M9A1, will penetrate the side of the turret and the side and rear plate of the ‘Panther’ Tank at 60 yards. On the basis of the assumption in paragraph 1c it follows that as the range increases, thereby reducing the angle of impact4 against the side of the turret and side armor plate, the possibility of penetration will materially decrease.
3) 37mm Gun, M6, Mounted on Light Tank, M5A1
APC, M51 will penetrate the sides and rear of the ‘Panther’ Tank at 600 yards.
4) 40mm Gun, M1, AA
AP, M58 will penetrate the sides and rear of the ‘Panther’ Tank at 600 yards.
5) 57mm Gun, M1
a) APC, M86 will penetrate the sides and rear of the ‘Panther’ Tank at 1500 yards.
b) Sabot fails to penetrate front glacis slope plate and gun shield at 200 yards. Due to difficulty experienced in obtaining hits no conclusion as to the effectiveness of this ammunition was reached.
6) 75mm Gun, M3, mounted on Medium Tank, M4
a) APC M61 will penetrate the sides and rear of the ‘Panther’ Tank up to 1500 yards. APC M61 at 200 yards will not penetrate the front armor of the ‘Panther’ Tank.
b) HEAT M66 (Special) will not penetrate the front glacis slope plate at 500 yards (see assumption made in paragraph 1c).
7) 3-inch Gun, M5, mounted on Motor Carriage, M10
a) APC M62, w/BDF M66A1 will not penetrate front glacis slope plate at 200 yards. Will penetrate gun mantlet at 200 yards and penetrate sides and rear of the ‘Panther’ Tank up to 1500 yards.
b) AP M79 will not penetrate the front slope plate or the mantlet at 200 yards. It holds no advantage over APC M62 ammunition w/BDF M66A1.
8) 90mm Gun, M1A1, AA
AP M77 will penetrate front glacis slope plate up to 600 yards, the gun mantlet up to 1,000 yards and the turret up to 1,500 yards.
9) 105mm Howitzer, M4, mounted on Medium Tank, M4
HEAT M67 will penetrate front glacis slope plate and gun mantlet at 500 yards (see assumption made in paragraph 1c).
In addition to testing the normal types of tank and anti-tank weapons and ammunition, additional types were tested with the following results:
A) 75mm Gun, M3, mounted on Medium Tank, M4
WP M64 - Three rounds were fired at 500 yards for the purpose of obtaining an incendiary or blinding effect. The results were unsatisfactory.
B) 75mm Gun, M3, mounted on Medium Tank, M4
HE M48 w/fz T105 - Three rounds were fired at the front glacis slope plate at 500 yards to determine its armor penetrative characteristics. The rounds failed to penetrate, ricochetting from the plate and bursting in the air.
[/CENTER]
t-34/85= piece of junk (well in later war that is) it had poor visibility, poor crew comfort, troubled engines and a 85mm gun which is not as superior as the 76mm fitted on the american shermans. :mrgreen:
Hmmm, where you get that data? , first of all I never read of bad engines in the T-34.
Second, the 85mm is superior to the 76 mm, and slightly inferior to the 88mm L56, and if you add that the russian have a lot of tugsten core ammo to work with since 1943…:rolleyes:
well, i see each tank differently, with different flaws and different advantages.
for example, The Tiger was the premier tank, but like most high cost, high material super weapons of the late war years german productivity just could not meet the demand. So i think that puts the tiger out of the running. Even though it might tear a t-34 to shreds with one shot of its massive 88 mm turret.
I hate the sherman, but it numbers it was the most effective thing on the battlefield. It didnt feature the best mobility, the best armor, the best camoflauge, or the nicest design. But its productivity was through the roof.
So i think the best medium in this poll is the t34. It was a mixture of strength, armor, mobility, a low horizon line, and it had a good sized cannon.
well who is to say that the German army was “evil”. I agree with saying Hitler was evil. But the German army, they were fighting against Bolshevisms, to them it was freeing Europe from the chains of the communist system, and as German armored columns came into contact with many small villages in eastern Europe they were greeted as the heroes, they thought they were the heroes Hitler and Goebbels had claimed they would be. And for much of the occupation in some parts, moral was high among the local inhabitants. So no, the German army wasn’t evil. They were normal soldiers just like when we thought we were “Liberating” and “De-Nazifing” Germany in the post war years.
Nightfighting Panthers
Some few Panthers were equipped with special infrared devices for night combat. The “Heereswaffenamt” WaPrüf 8, in cooperation with the AEG was dealing with this kind of optical equipment since 1936, but devolopment was discontinued and the decision to further investigate in this area wasn´t made until the Allies gained total airsuperiority in 1943. From now on much energy was invested in the project.
The results of these investigations, which were lead by Ministerialrat Dr.-Ing. H.Gaertner Heereswaffenamt/WaPrüf 8, were, that in 1943 the Wehrmacht equipped some few Panthers with 200-mm infra-red searchlights FG 1250 and a BIWA (Bildwandler - image converter), which converted the infra-red image into a visible reproduction. In the first tests at the armoured forces school at FALLINGBOSTEL (North Germany) near HANNOVER the crews trained to drive and to aim at night. Admittedly the searchlight range wasn´t more than 600 metres, limiting the long range advantage of the excellent KwK42 75mm/L70.
[LEFT]The FG 1250 infared searchlight and scope mounted on the commander´s cupola of an Panther Ausf.G.
The steel band was fed through a hole in the turret roof at the base of the cupola. This steel band, connected internally to an indicator, allowed the gunner to recognize when the elevation of the gun was on target.
Because of this reason the developers mounted an even greater 600mm searchlight on a halftrack, the Sd.Kfz. 251/20 “UHU”, which was intended to be attached to each platoon to enhance the night fighting range of the platoon. Finally the Wehrmacht planned to use a halftrack called FALKE in combination with the vehicles mentioned. [/LEFT]
Nightfighting Panthers in Action
In summer 1944 the Panthers of 3.Kompanie, 24th Panzerregiment, 116th Panzerdivision, were equipped with UHU on the battle/excercise-area BERGEN, and actually trained the use of the nightfighting concept SPERBER. Hitler planned the mission of this Kompanie to be during the Operation WACHT AM RHEIN (Battle of the Bulge) and actually some squads were tranfered to the western front, but never saw action there.
One SPERBER squad including their Panthers was transfered to STUHLWEISSENBURG (Hungary) in early 1945 with 6th SS-Panzerarmee, intended to support the german counterattack to secure the area of Budapest. The rest of the Kompanie followed, but without nightfighting equipment. In 1945 the Wehrmacht planned to form 5 SPERBER Kompanies, but this concept proved to be illusory. 2 SPERBER squads joined the spontanuous formed Panzerdivision “CLAUSEWITZ”, which was formed in spring 1945 on the western front. On 21st of april, these 2 squads ran down an american ambush, which has been set up at the WESER-ELBE-KANAL, and by this ensured the only documented action of the nightfighting concept SPERBER.
In march 1945 the Panzerdivision “MÜNCHEBERG” received one fully equipped Kompanie of 10 SPERBER capable Panthers and one SPERBER capable Panzer Grenadier Kompanie. The Division took part in the last fights during the battle of BERLIN. If this Division used the SPERBER concept isn´t documented.
Excuse me… for my intervention…
But…
For me … the best tank is he, which win the war
I think there is something superior in that tank, which win the war, independently of our opinions, or our wishs. I see… somebody hire likes comforts…
But are not the comforts doing the war… and believe me, they d’not help in war…!
My Regards
In my opinion, the word ‘best’ isn’t the correct word to use for it can mean or have many applications. To one, it may apply to the power and ability to deflect shots and to another it may apply to what the tank brought to the war effort.
If all of the tanks did what they were supposed to do (didn’t break down, etc.), the Tiger I followed by the Panther would be the two top ‘best’ tanks. The Sherman followed by the T34 would be the two most important tanks.
It’s a debate that will out live all of us and is always an interesting topic!
JMHO 
Jeff
Excuse me… for my intervention…
But…
For me … the best tank is he, which win the warI think there is something superior in that tank, which win the war, independently of our opinions, or our wishs. I see… somebody hire likes comforts…
But are not the comforts doing the war… and believe me, they d’not help in war…!
My Regards
Well, dont let us in the shadows, go ahead and please enlightened us…wich was the tank that won the war, and please also tell us in wich aspect it was superior to the Pz V?
The numbers produced? That would be about any of them.
Not quite, there was more Panthers than Pershings or Churchills.
Just two allied types models that I remember now. :rolleyes:
Well!
Even you believeme or not, i want to help our friend “PANZERKNACKER” takeing away from shadows.
Let call some sun here, on our conversation… I think, a little sun d’not demage, if you are not looking him at eye. Perhaps(and thes is my opinion), he makes the miracle and removes the shadows from “PANZERKNACKER”-s dreamland.
I see…
I have read all yours writings here in this theme.
I agreed with you!
“Panther” was beautiful looking tank, nice armoured, high ability, good precision, good balance. What can i say any ather… “Panther” = Jewel
But the war is like the hunt!
My uncle, which is hunter… he d’not take jewels with him… one dog take he, with him! Do you think he is silly…?! Maybe…yes!!! Maybe…no!!! Who knows…!!! I d’not recognize myself sometimes. But for something i em sure. The war is more nearly with the hunt, than is nearly with the party.
“T-34/85” was the dog. And he did! He bites and the germans that knows. He was there. In any time, in any condition of weather! He was there, when soldiery needs him.
2mm high, or 2mm down, there is no importance. When the bear is coming, the gun must shoot!
Yes…
Beautiful is the Wolf… But my dirty, ugly, lazy dog… helps me!
Hello my friend… I can not change yours believes… i d’not wantit too! But is something higher from them… is the truth. And the truth is “T-34/85” win the war!
Tiger
Even you believeme or not, i want to help our friend “PANZERKNACKER” takeing away from shadows.
Let call some sun here, on our conversation… I think, a little sun d’not demage, if you are not looking him at eye. Perhaps(and thes is my opinion), he makes the miracle and removes the shadows from “PANZERKNACKER”-s dreamland.I see…
I have read all yours writings here in this theme.
I agreed with you!
“Panther” was beautiful looking tank, nice armoured, high ability, good precision, good balance. What can i say any ather… “Panther” = JewelBut the war is like the hunt!
My uncle, which is hunter… he d’not take jewels with him… one dog take he, with him! Do you think he is silly…?! Maybe…yes!!! Maybe…no!!! Who knows…!!! I d’not recognize myself sometimes. But for something i em sure. The war is more nearly with the hunt, than is nearly with the party.“T-34/85” was the dog. And he did! He bites and the germans that knows. He was there. In any time, in any condition of weather! He was there, when soldiery needs him.
2mm high, or 2mm down, there is no importance. When the bear is coming, the gun must shoot!
Yes…
Beautiful is the Wolf… But my dirty, ugly, lazy dog… helps me!Hello my friend… I can not change yours believes… i d’not wantit too! But is something higher from them… is the truth. And the truth is “T-34/85” win the war!
:rolleyes:, despite some mishaps in spelling, that could be consider a proper ansewr, thanks, thanks H2 for take me out, there was so much darkness here. 
I think T-34…but Panther is most beutiful…
Ohhhhh… Sorry my frend! I’m very sorry! I’m really afflicted, that you feel so. But the good news is, that you find the light again. This make me feel beter.
Ahhhhhhh forgeted…
Congratulations for your correct ENGLISH!!!