That was one of the examples I had in mind.
It’s an unfortunate fact that the performance of some workers and unions in Australia during WWII, even with Japan bearing down upon us, was an absolute disgrace bordering on a form of industrial treason.
My grandfather was one of the soldiers that had drive a truck through the picket lines. Pop was a staunch unionist and member of the Labor Party, but he hated the wharfies for what they did.
Regards digger.
Some of the wharfies needed a bomb under them.
It happened in this case in the first Darwin bombing
The wharf labourers commenced discharging the general cargo on to the wharf. H.M.A.S. Swan came alongside Neptuna’s starboard side aft, and the Navy then sent in a working party under the supervision of a Petty Officer (P.O.) to commence passing the high explosive anti-aircraft shells onto the Swan, which had depleted her stock of ammunition whilst defending the convoy en route to Timor.
At this juncture the P.O. was approached by the waterside workers union delegate (“the delo”), demanding that the naval party cease passing the shells aboard Swan, as the ammunition was cargo, and cargo discharge was the work of wharf labourers not naval ratings. the P.O. told “The delo” get out of the way of my men, or they would toss him into the harbour". The waterside workers were annoyed by this, and seeing Neptuna’s [merchant navy] Cadets standing by, appealed to them for support. The cadets responded that they would assist the naval ratings in man-handling the wharfies over the side. At this stage of the confrontation, a sailor observed a formation of aircraft flying overhead, and remarked that the “Yanks had at last arrived.” Another one said, “Look they are dropping leaflets.”
Almost immediately there was a huge explosion on the wharf forward of Neptuna; the ship, hit below the waterline, gave an enormous shudder, and began taking in water. On shore Air-Raid sirens commenced to sound. Ammunition transfer stopped, Swan cast off from Neptuna and went full astern, backing off for sea room to manoeuvre, and commenced firing her Anti Aircraft Guns using the A.A. shells obtained from Neptuna.
http://www.merchant-navy-ships.com/index.php?id=29,0,0,1,0,0
The strangest thing about using the armed forces to deal with industrial disputes is, as in WWII with the wharfies and the 1949 coal strike and the 1989 pilot’s strike, it was Labor governments that did it, and at times when they were much closer to the unions than now.
It was not a pilots strike, it was an act of bastardry by Bob Hawke for his old mate Sir Peter Ables and the whole dispute goes back to the early 70’s when the airline pilots union rejected an ACTU attempt to absorb them.
They told Bob Hawke to get nicked and he never forgot or forgave.
Regards digger.
I’m very, very rusty on the details but your quoted part rings some bells about favours for his mate, and some other curious relationships he had.
You may not agree, but I’ve always thought that Hawke was the best post-war Liberal prime minister Australia ever had. He sidelined the unions and kept workers’ wages down for a decade, and by keeping the wage base line artificially low he depressed wages for years afterwards, right up till now. No Liberal government has managed anything like it.
Just in case anyone is reluctant to interrupt Digger and my excursions into Australian labour and Labor history, feel free to return to the topic. 
Probably should start a new thread mate. The likes of Curtin would turn over in their grave with the actions of the Labor Prime Ministers from Whitlam on.
Regards digger:)
It’s such a pitty I have no time…
Time, that we have, is money, that we don’t have… Just a quote from a book you do not know about… 
OK. Retournons à nos moutons…
This lend-lease drives me nuts! When it comes to mentioning USSR’s efforst it always slides to Lend-Lease.
Alephh, I know that your country lost the Winther war of 1940 to USSR, but there is no need to feel bitter today about it! (Man, I am looking forward to your comment on this sentence)
I have to run again… A quick one… What ever mind blowing quantities you guys mention, please remember it was about 10% of GNP. Was it important? Yes it was? Did it save lives? Yes, many it saved many lives! Was it decisive? I am not sure I would call it decisive in the same manner as you, though.
Should Russians (and other nationalities of USSR) be gratefull for it? Absolutely! Should US and their friends clame that Lend-Lease saved the war? Absolutely not!
More precise talk with numbers later… Stay tuned!
I can understand that
A bit like talking about Finland always ends up in Winter War ;-D
Finland did also fought alone against Nazi Germany, and with Nazi Germany against Soviet Union, and alone against Soviet Union in Winter war. And after all that our capital wasn’t captured - the only Axis capital to do that.
LOL
Sorry, I’m not blindly patriotic - I’m usually trashing Finland in most conversations.
Anyways, opposing people is a good way to learn (as long as conversation is civilized), so it’s not unheard of that sometimes I’m defending certain view and couple of months later opposing it ;-D
_
Don’t need to start the new thread mate.
The some deflection are admissible in here.
Cheers.
I don’t know Chevan. It might be interesting. I’m sure there are many here who would consider the North African campaign as a pivotal part of the war. I still think you should fire the first shot mate;)
Regards digger:D
We have discussed the role of Lend-Lease to USSR a bit in this thread: http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4442
Digger,
Sure, some whould consider Africa to be pivotal. Some would consider battle of Kreta to be definitive to the whole WW2. Some would this… Some would that…
So what is your opinion if you try to be OBJECTIVE.
Well yes alluminium and some of critical resources were extremaly neded for the industry.
Those material wery halped the industry in 1943-45 ( the period which you means as 50 % of alluminium) when the crisis in the East had come to the end and it was clear the USSR at least don’t losed this war.
So i definatelly don’t see the reasons to tell without the Lend lise in 1941-42 the “soviet population 100% died”.This is pure demagogy.
You may be don’t know but the 80% of allies supplied come to the period of 1943-45 when Red Army had the common strategic offensive to the West. Certainly this helped at the second period of war but not in first.
Soviet Union build just 265,000 trucks. US shipped in 409,500 trucks with no trouble. And you have to remember that soviet trucks were old inefficient useless models - while american trucks were the newest efficient models available.
Well sure the Studebeccers and Jeep willis were the best of allies vechicles.
But who did you say the soviet trucks were old useless models?
1942-1945 Soviet Union produced 92 locomotives, allied shipped in almost 2000 locomotives. Without these, the Soviet Union wouldn’t have means to move around troops, not to mention move around food to people - without food - well, I’m under the impression that even soviet people need to eat.
Oh really you under impression;)
So where would you impression wer in 1941-42 when only pitfull part of those locomotives had arrived to the USSR.
How could the Soviet Union not die without allies locomotives in 1941-42 don’t you know?
In 1941 Soviet Union produced 30,000 railcars, 1942-1945 ONLY 1087. This would have meant COLLAPSE of food delivery, but luckily allied shipped in over 10,000 railcars.
Lucky allied prefered to send the reilcars to see how the russian died in fight with Nazy and its allies like Finland ( which certainly losed coz allied did not shipped to the Finland the reilcars;))
Soviet Union didn’t even bother to produce rails, I mean, how in the world they thought they were gonna move their trains around? But luckily allied shipped in over 90% over soviet rails.
[quote]
Over 35% (latest figures from this centery) of explosives used in Eastern Front came from US and UK. Obviously Stalin think about blowing up german Tiger tanks with potatoes, but luckily allied helped him out - it’s a lot easier with explosives.
Oh yea 35% already the latest figures.Where are those figures were got?
And the molotov’s coctails which was the extremale mean of sovie soldiers don’t look like the potatoes for the German tanks near the Moscow and Stalingrad . But may be for the finns army it seems to be the potatoes?
And let’s take a look at soviet food situation: pre-war Soviet Union had troubles at feeding it’s population. End of 1941, Nazis had capture 40%-80% of sugar, pigs, fields, grains… Let’s say Soviet Union had 50% of it’s food resources left. After army took away tractors from farms, and Soviet Union didn’t produce too many tractors, (add to that the fact that best male population was in the army) possibilities to actually make good usage of that 50% of food resources was low. Let’s say soviet workeds miracles and 85 years old grand-mothers were as strong as tractors, and they managed to use 35% of food resources. Now, how on earth you are going to transport that food around Soviet Union to civilian population and to troops at frontlines - Because Soviet Union didn’t build locomotives, or traincars, or even rails, or trucks…? Add to that a very cold winter, looting, chaos, and the fact that frontline troops were in prime position for getting the food.
Even with 40% of soviet food production the USSR could fight with the Germany in the 1941-42.
And Germans army were the better supplies by food but they could not win in the most critical battels.
Considering above, how on earth do you see Soviet Union making it without allied support without totally collapsing due the lack of food?
It was very hard but the USSR could surrive the first period of war without a help. And no lack of food could stop the Germans with its “friends”.
State where country produces 10-50% (depending how you crunch the numbers) of needed food per year, is simply not sustainable several years.
This was not constant percentage. a si said if in the 1941and early of 1942 the role of lend lise was too unsignificant( neither 10% nor 5% ) , then the maximum in the 1943-44 .
Even thou Soviet Union always felt good about the production evacuation, it wasn’t all that great. A large amount of factories were lost. And, it took a looooooooon time to soviet production to start a work again - pig iron production fell 60-70%, steel production fell 50-60%, coal production fell 60% comparing 1942 to 1940.
Nevertheles tin that period which you tell about the USSR were able to stop the Nazy and its allies .
So you can spread as much as you wish , but the facts are telling itself.
Compare all this to Nazi Germany where military production was just a tiny percent of all production (mostly civilian production) and you start to see that behind all the aggressive boasting nazis weren’t ready/prepared/geared up for a war.
And what, do you sing the song for the Nazy now;)
IWell sure at the first period of war when the Nazy found a lot of “friends” in the Europe ( and used its resources) they could let for themself to hold the war production limited, but i/m strongly doubt that fell free in the 1944-45 when the TOTAL war has come to the Europe and all former Germans aliies cowardly began to search the peace.
Personally I think that Nazi Germany would have easily conquered Soviet Union if:
Hitler would have prepared german production for war.
or Allied had not supported Soviet Union.
… I know it’s not a very popular opinion, but after a decade of number crunching I feel that way.
Personaly you could calculate what you want entire you life sir.
But i have to add something:
Personally i know for sure the Germany could never attacked the East if Hitler did not used his European resources and its armies as “cannon meat”. So claming the weak production of USSR just don’t forget who has got he Hitler resources and materials for this war.
Cheers.
Oh gyes Rising Sun and Digger
It is really interesting to read your discussion although is touchs of the pure australian life.
Pleasant spend ot time in inside a pleasant company;)
I’m know not only women but even teenagers and kids worked ih the evacuated soviet plants during the war.This is a fact.
12 years Kolij Martjanov works hard at the instrumental bench.
Cheers.
Egorka it is my objective opinion that Chevan should start the new thread;)
Regards digger
Lets look at food in Lend-Lease…
USSR reseived little less than 5.000.000 tons of food in Lend lease during the whole war. That is during 4 years, i.e. 1460 days. Since we all like to eat at every day, lets see what this help would mean as additional food source for the population of USSR - app. 150.000.000 people (this is a rough number: 190 mil - people left in ocupied territory - infants - killed):
5.000.000.000 kg / 1460 days / 190.000.000 people = 22,8 gramm per person per day
A stunning result! Hardly a very large addition. At least not as large as to call it the only saviour.
This is assuming that the food deliveries were evenly spread in time (they were not).
OK, lets look at this from different point of view. How many people could be fed with only Lend-Lease food help. At the end of the day there was a famin like situation in USSR in 1942 with deaths due to distrophy symptoms.
Assuming 1000 gramms (app. 33 oz) of food per person per day (for your info a German POW in USSR was entiteled for 1200 gramm of food per day in September 1942) we get:
5.000.000.000 kg / 1460 days / 1 Kg per person = app. 3,42 mil people
That is of course matter of life and death for these 3,42 million people! But can you really say it played the most important role in the fate of the whole country of 160+ million population?
By the way, here is an interesting info about the food rations (I have not read it my self yet 
): http://17thdivision.tripod.com/id40.html
Can we say we have cleared the food question?
Hi,
I want to the library today (just see ehat kind of troubles I have to go through for you!) to get access to this article: “Soviet Food Supply and Allied Aid in the War”, 1941-45, by Roger Munting, published in “Soviet Studies”, Vol. 36, No. 4 (Oct., 1984), pp. 582-593. http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0038-5859(198410)36%3A4<582%3ASFSAAA>2.0.CO%3B2-I
This report reffers in it’s turn to this report: “Report on War Aid Furnished by the United States to the USSR (Washington DC 1945)”.
Ok, there is info about how much food supply was shipped to USSR per period. Here it is (the numbers in bold are from the article, the reast is my addition):
days metric % exstra food per
in tonnage food person per day,
[u]period[/u] [u] send[/u] [u]stuff[/u] [u]gramm ([b]*[/b]) [/u]
1. [b]22/06/1941 30/09/1941[/b] 98 [b]3134[/b] [b]2[/b] 0.2
2. [b]01/07/1941 30/06/1942[/b] 359 [b]298936[/b] [b]22[/b] 5.6
3. [b]01/07/1942 30/06/1943[/b] 359 [b]977827[/b] [b]33[/b] 19.5
4. [b]01/07/1943 30/06/1944[/b] 359 [b]1700105[/b] [b]30[/b] 33.8
5. [b]01/07/1944 12/05/1945[/b] 311 [b]1134226[/b] [b]21[/b] 24.3
6. [b]13/05/1945 02/09/1945[/b] 109 [b]253037[/b] [b]17[/b] 15.5
7. [b]03/09/1945 20/09/1945[/b] 17 [u][b] 7707[/b][/u] [u][b] 20[/b][/u] 3.0
[b] total: 4374972 25[/b]
([b]*[/b]) - the population older than 1 year is taken to be
180mil in the period 1,
150mil in period 2,
140mil in period 3 and 4,
150mil in period 5-7.
Some other intresting facts and quotes from the article:
[ul]
[li]The imported food wen primarely to the armed forces.
[/li][li]First quarter 1943, app. 17% of food (by calorific value) that was consumed by RKKA was from US supply.
[/li][li]“in the consular report from various quarters, which suggested that the local populace was either in total ignorance of the generocity (as it was seen in the USA) of its allies or, indeed, supposed that UK and USA capitalists were exploiting Soviet citizens”
[/li][li]The fist deliveries in 1941 (until 30-09-1941) were made on account of the credits from US treasury ($10 mill) and Defence Supply Corp ($50 mil). Both credits were made in anticipation of soviet gold sales.
[/li][li]The deliveries after 13-05-1945 were made a part of operation “Milepost” - aid for soviet war in Pacific.
[/li][/ul]
So it is up to you to conclude how much important was the food supplies in the lend-lease and when that food was available to USSR.
Shell we get to other items on the Lend-Lease list?
Good matter mate and nice mathematic calculation;)
i did not know the allies food supply was able to feed only 3,4 mln i.e. 2% of population of USSR.
But i think our western friends might ask is it right to count just the weight of food without its quality and caloricity.
I know for sure the allues supplied not the potatoes and the bread but mostly tushenka, canned foods, concentrated milk and even natural fruit juices. I think this is a little more importaint products then the simple bread?
I think the 20 grams of fresh juice for the soviet soldier per day is not bed:)
Certainly this is not equal the 20 grams of vodka or spirit but definitely not bed too;)